The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[BIL]

Ketsui because all the little butterfly-effect type changes in enemy patterns based on position really keep you alert, moving and thinking and not just going through a flowchart a la Dragon Blaze. It actually requires a lot of twitch skill even for players like me who have the whole ideal path mapped out beforehand with savestates.

Try out Gun.Smoke (arcade ver, nothing like the FC one). Rubbish for scoring since you can just boss milk all day, but its enemies are fiendishly adaptive to player position and take nerves of steel to dispatch no matter how well you know the level layouts. No other one-bullet pattern will make you lose your shit like the fifth boss's.

[azinth]

Naut hates Ketsui, and if he dislikes a game then you can be certain that it's memotrash.

Fuck Psikyo, I'm done with them for the indefinite future.

[Deca]

Fuck Psikyo, I'm done with them for the indefinite future.

That 2-ALL going well for you then?

[Gus]

RNG, man, I thought you knew better. These are extremely frustrating and repetitive games that are only "fun" when you get that winning run after 10 hours of getting your ass handed and wondering why you're even bothering. Memo grinding is simply part of the nature of the beast and the sooner you accept that the better. Just remember when you hit that wall think about the trials the top players face. Guys like x91 who spent months grinding away at Ketsui Ura just to see a tiny improvement in his score so he could finally get his 400m goal. The thing is they don't give up. While a fucking casual would just walk away a good players keeps going, tears that mother fucking wall down. You just gotta keep going, don't run away from the annoying bullshit, embrace it.

[O. Van Bruce]

RNG, man, I thought you knew better. These are extremely frustrating and repetitive games that are only "fun" when you get that winning run after 10 hours of getting your ass handed and wondering why you're even bothering. Memo grinding is simply part of the nature of the beast and the sooner you accept that the better. Just remember when you hit that wall think about the trials the top players face. Guys like x91 who spent months grinding away at Ketsui Ura just to see a tiny improvement in his score so he could finally get his 400m goal. The thing is they don't give up. While a fucking casual would just walk away a good players keeps going, tears that mother fucking wall down. You just gotta keep going, don't run away from the annoying bullshit, embrace it.

Ans thus... work was born into shmup...

[azinth]

RNG, man, I thought you knew better. These are extremely frustrating and repetitive games that are only "fun" when you get that winning run after 10 hours of getting your ass handed and wondering why you're even bothering. Memo grinding is simply part of the nature of the beast and the sooner you accept that the better. Just remember when you hit that wall think about the trials the top players face. Guys like x91 who spent months grinding away at Ketsui Ura just to see a tiny improvement in his score so he could finally get his 400m goal. The thing is they don't give up. While a fucking casual would just walk away a good players keeps going, tears that mother fucking wall down. You just gotta keep going, don't run away from the annoying bullshit, embrace it.

This post is silly and you are very silly.

Nice Galuda II score btw :V

[Ed Oscuro]

tears that mother fucking wall down.

...reaction image meme is dirty and I feel dirty, heh

[third_strike]

I mean, I can get further in DDP, but that's mainly because the game gifts you with so many bombs that I can just bomb my way through the 3rd boss and 4th stage before dying in the fifth, as opposed to DOJ where I'll never have more than two bombs.

But DOJBL gives to you a lot of hypers to spam during stages.
Hypers = Bombs.

Not exactly... if you are aiming for a survival, you may want to hyper the minimum or the rank could go up like crazy.

Rank going up like crazy in DOJBL? Really no. Plus this, is very easy reduce the rank in this game.

[O. Van Bruce]

But DOJBL gives to you a lot of hypers to spam during stages.
Hypers = Bombs.

Not exactly... if you are aiming for a survival, you may want to hyper the minimum or the rank could go up like crazy.

Rank going up like crazy in DOJBL? Really no. Plus this, is very easy reduce the rank in this game.

every bomb counts when you are using Exy... anyway, I wouldn't recomend him to get used to the idea bomb = hyper... specially in stage 5...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I also don't quite see how disliking Espgaluda and Subterranean Animism for reasons that have nothing to do with their difficulty is DTP-like, but ok.

Might have more to do with complaining about a game being incredibly hard when attempting to seriously score when you should probably focus more on actually surviving first.

Also, Espgaluda's Stage 2 is not the shmup equivalent of Mount Everest; it takes a few extra seconds to laser him down normally and he's quite trivial to kill, not to mention the entire level isn't too tough even if you upped the game rank by going into Overmode level 3 earlier for the extra green gems it nets you.

[Obscura]

Also, Espgaluda's Stage 2 is not the shmup equivalent of Mount Everest; it takes a few extra seconds to laser him down normally and he's quite trivial to kill, not to mention the entire level isn't too tough even if you upped the game rank by going into Overmode level 3 earlier for the extra green gems it nets you.

When did I say Galuda stage 2 is hard?

Actually, despite my dislike of it, on the few credits of it I've played, it's one of two Cave verts I've made it to the final stage of (furthest I've made it is to Seseri's stage 5 version).

Its second stage is not hard. It's insanely fucking long and absolutely dull and unfun, though.

[Deca]

I really need to stop choking on DOJBL st4 boss...I don't really understand because I used to breeze through him no problem with maybe one bomb on a bad run.

[Icarus]

Its second stage is not hard. It's insanely fucking long and absolutely dull and unfun, though.

Stage 3 is far longer than stage 2.
And if you honestly think Espgaluda's stage 2 is long, you've never played Pink Sweets, Akai Katana Shin, Deathsmiles, Muchi Muchi Pork!, etc, which have much longer key stages.

Also, this thread is a prime example of the saying "a bad workman blames his tools".

[Obscura]

Stage 3 is far longer than stage 2.

Yeah, but at least something actually happens in that stage.

I guess I'm not being entirely fair; the st 2 boss's last pattern is pretty cool. Everything before that is beyond tedious, though; and the "slow the game down to anal-retentively milk bullets" score system does it no favors.

And if you honestly think Espgaluda's stage 2 is long, you've never played Pink Sweets, Akai Katana Shin, Deathsmiles, Muchi Muchi Pork!, etc, which have much longer key stages.

Only one of those I've played is Deathsmiles, which at least had the decency to make the long stage its last stage.

Of course, I don't like Deathsmiles, either.

[AntiFritz]

Gorge and Ice Palace are longer then Hades Castle.

[Obscura]

One of those stages isn't in the version I played, and the other is optional.

[NzzpNzzp]

Actually, when I select her, it says "Shot + Laser".

It says expert before that. But y'know whatever.

But, really, as far as I can tell, A-Exy is the only sane choice. The shot types have extra bombs... just so that they can blow them on harder bossfights

Yeah. That's it. Because you suck, see? You suck so when you're going to get hit you bomb. This means you don't die. As you are now more bombs will be a lot more valuable to you than a better shot.

[O. Van Bruce]

Well for me is significantly easier to survive in DOJ stages 4 and 5 with Ship B - Exy... when I have to take care of the popcorn enemies I just go to shot a moment... it's very useful on the parts in wich you have bullets that restrict your movements...

[Obscura]

Yeah. That's it. Because you suck, see? You suck so when you're going to get hit you bomb. This means you don't die. As you are now more bombs will be a lot more valuable to you than a better shot.

Ok, lets say I pick shotia instead of exy.

I've got 2 more bombs when I get to some hard section. Ok, I can freely bomb that thing out. Oh, wait, no I can't, because I've got a hyper trailing me. Oh, hey, I'm to a boss with a pattern that tends to kill me- bomb it freely, right? Wait, the price I'm paying for this is that the boss lives long enough to do it more times (and I'm less maneuverable for it), so I just get to blow more bombs. And when I do die? Laser power back to level 1, royally fucked.

I just don't see any upsides to the non-exy dolls in DOJ at all.

[Deca]

Kind of amazed DFK hasn't come up in all this talk of long stages.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Oh, wait, no I can't, because I've got a hyper trailing me. Oh, hey, I'm to a boss with a pattern that tends to kill me- bomb it freely, right?

Pretty sure Bruce suggested a few posts ago you try not collecting every single hyper to keep the rank down. Have you experimented with this?

Also, you make it sound as if the boss patterns are totally insurmountable or something. If it's hard and you're getting hit, you gotta get in the mindset of trying to find out how you can avoid that pattern. Treat it like a puzzle, maybe there's an easy way to stream it or something. It's not like the hitbox is massive; if you're getting hit early on it's probably your fault. I know every time I get hit I can tell it's my fault and I know exactly how I fucked up. And if you really have to bomb something, you can likely get good enough at the rest of the game to overcome it and still clear the game.

I've never played DOJ but it certainly sounds like it's one of Cave's less newbie friendly shmups anyways.

[NzzpNzzp]

Ok, lets say I pick shotia instead of exy.

I've got 2 more bombs when I get to some hard section.

Shotia goes up to 6 bombs.

Ok, I can freely bomb that thing out. Oh, wait, no I can't, because I've got a hyper trailing me.

So hyper it out instead? You should have more than enough time to get things back under control with a hyper, even if they do make you invicible for less time.

Oh, hey, I'm to a boss with a pattern that tends to kill me- bomb it freely, right? Wait, the price I'm paying for this is that the boss lives long enough to do it more times (and I'm less maneuverable for it), so I just get to blow more bombs. And when I do die? Laser power back to level 1, royally fucked.

So play Leinyan then. Same laser as Exy, and more bombs.

[Obscura]

Pretty sure Bruce suggested a few posts ago you try not collecting every single hyper to keep the rank down. Have you experimented with this?

A little bit, but in BL, hyper rank doesn't do much when you're not actually *in* hyper. It's better to have the extra power in hard sections, in my experience.

Also, you make it sound as if the boss patterns are totally insurmountable or something. If it's hard and you're getting hit, you gotta get in the mindset of trying to find out how you can avoid that pattern. Treat it like a puzzle, maybe there's an easy way to stream it or something. It's not like the hitbox is massive; if you're getting hit early on it's probably your fault. I know every time I get hit I can tell it's my fault and I know exactly how I fucked up.

I've never played DOJ but it certainly sounds like it's one of Cave's less newbie friendly shmups anyways.

The particular boss pattern I was thinking of (stage 3 boss first form, second pattern) isn't "insurmountable"; I have about a 50% success rate with it; but it's the sort of thing I'd bomb if I had a ton of bombs, since it involves reading where a tiny gap is going to form in a pattern that comes in fast.

If I go with a shot type for those extra bombs, though? Well, I get to see it an extra time (both because my laser does less damage, and I need to switch to shot more), so there goes the point of that.

So play Leinyan then. Same laser as Exy, and more bombs.

Not many more bombs though (3 vs. 2), fewer hypers, weaker hypers, probably one less life since I fuck up the second half of stage 2 a lot with that no-coverage shot, and if I die in a stage, I'm screwed with that worthless shot (at least with A; I've experimented with B-L a bit; it seems easily the best of the non-Exy ships, but god it's slow...)

[O. Van Bruce]

Pretty sure Bruce suggested a few posts ago you try not collecting every single hyper to keep the rank down. Have you experimented with this?

A little bit, but in BL, hyper rank doesn't do much when you're not actually *in* hyper. It's better to have the extra power in hard sections, in my experience.

Also, you make it sound as if the boss patterns are totally insurmountable or something. If it's hard and you're getting hit, you gotta get in the mindset of trying to find out how you can avoid that pattern. Treat it like a puzzle, maybe there's an easy way to stream it or something. It's not like the hitbox is massive; if you're getting hit early on it's probably your fault. I know every time I get hit I can tell it's my fault and I know exactly how I fucked up.

I've never played DOJ but it certainly sounds like it's one of Cave's less newbie friendly shmups anyways.

The particular boss pattern I was thinking of (stage 3 boss first form, second pattern) isn't "insurmountable"; I have about a 50% success rate with it; but it's the sort of thing I'd bomb if I had a ton of bombs, since it involves reading where a tiny gap is going to form in a pattern that comes in fast.

If I go with a shot type for those extra bombs, though? Well, I get to see it an extra time (both because my laser does less damage, and I need to switch to shot more), so there goes the point of that.

So play Leinyan then. Same laser as Exy, and more bombs.

Not many more bombs though (3 vs. 2), fewer hypers, weaker hypers, probably one less life since I fuck up the second half of stage 2 a lot with that no-coverage shot, and if I die in a stage, I'm screwed with that worthless shot.

Oh! That boss! it's got an easy-modo way to do that pattern... I'm asuming it's the one in wich there are slow red bullets aimed at you and blue bullets spread on a weird pattern. Here is the trick:

start the pattern at one side of the boss and wait a moment (you have to caliber when) to cross the aimed red bullets. When that happens you may notice that the blue bullets form a "path" to outside of the pattern: Go quicly outside of the pattern and then go inside it with great care of the red bullets... just 2 or 3 seconds later, if you are using Exy, The boss should skip to the next pattern. Be careful cause the nest patter is a fast one and you should have in mind the way it comes to not panic or die.

[Obscura]

That's the third pattern. That's pretty much the exact way I do it.

The one I'm talking about is a fast spiral and a half clockwise, followed by a similar spiral counter-clockwise.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Pretty sure it's this one he means.

I threw a couple credits into the game, it seems not too bad if you hide in the lower left/right corner as that's where the shots are at their widest for radial attacks like that. It certainly seems to be a fairly tough stage 3, so I'm not surprised it'd give someone trouble (although it doesn't help that I suck and I've no clue where the hitbox is, lol).

[O. Van Bruce]

That's the third pattern. That's pretty much the exact way I do it.

The one I'm talking about is a fast spiral and a half clockwise, followed by a similar spiral counter-clockwise.

Oh... then you have a problem... there is no trick... you have to predict where the hole will go and get there...

[trap15]

The second pattern is easy. Just don't look at your ship. I've played DOJBL maybe 3 times total, so I fired it up to check and see. I don't see how you can have a problem with it. It's pretty basic dodging. I ran that pattern 5~6 times, and I died on first time because I tunnel visioned, and after that it was no problem.

[Obscura]

...and we've gone full circle.

Me: "I wish I knew how to have more general dodging skill/be better"
shmups members: "figure out why you're dying and strategize!"
Me: "Ok, here's an example of a pattern; how do you strategize against something like this?"
shmups members: "No strategy; just be better!"

[BareKnuckleRoo]

shmups members: "No strategy; just be better!"

Grossly oversimplifying what you're told won't help. You should know that some patterns will simply require faster reaction speeds or learning where to look during an attack and a lot of needs to develop on its own through sheer practising, otherwise you have to develop ways of getting around attacks you aren't capable of dealing that fit with your skill level (like bombing/hypering them). I even saw one video where the person simply went pointblank and hypered away the first radial attack instead of dodging it for a speedkill. Not every pattern has a trick to it that'll get you through it, and you need to develop or adapt your own strategies from people's suggestions/videos for your skill level.