Is a Tri/Multi sync monitor a must for Mame?

[fagin]

rCadeGaming,
There is a whole world of difference in signal quality between AV and RGB. Is your TV processing the signal to clean up a composite signal?

I need to apologise as I thought I read "screen" tearing (perhaps it's me that should go to the opticians!) rather than motion tearing.

Yes... referring to the DC in that last quote.

Lettuce lives in Ireland.

[lettuce]

Lettuce, I should have asked this earlier. Do you live in the US, or in the UK, or anywhere else where SCART is common? Either way, TV's will work very well. You just need the extra SCART to component and VGA to component transcoders in the US. SCART TV's should accept 15kHz VGA, just need to combine the horizontal and vertical sync to composite sync.

Yeah im in the UK. Im currently using a Sony Scart TV for mame (via VGA to 'Scart' RGB). The reason im wanting to get a monitor is for the ease of changing the display geometry when needed as having to turn the TV off press some number combinations to get the service menu to appear then filter through the options to find the one you want is a pain in the arse, so the gemoetry board of an arcade monitor is a blessing plus Scart TV cant seem to display 256-line modes, games like R-Type etc.

[lettuce]

Lettuce lives in Ireland.

Huh!....i wish i did. I know i get stuff backwards sometimes.......but come on! .

I live but a stones throw away from yourself shaun

[fagin]

Roflol - what a nob. Sorry dude, mixed you up with someone else.

[rCadeGaming]

Is your TV processing the signal to clean up a composite signal?

Its a pretty simple set, so I doubt it's doing much processing if any at all. IDK, it just seems to be able to display a pretty good picture from composite (15kHz at least), that doesn't look as crappy as composite does on most sets. Again, RGB SCART -> component obviously looks better still, so I stick with that.

Im currently using a Sony Scart TV for mame (via VGA to 'Scart' RGB). The reason im wanting to get a monitor is for the ease of changing the display geometry when needed as having to turn the TV off press some number combinations to get the service menu to appear then filter through the options to find the one you want is a pain in the arse, so the gemoetry board of an arcade monitor is a blessing plus Scart TV cant seem to display 256-line modes, games like R-Type etc.

All of the 15kHz consoles were kind of designed with a similar amount of overscan in mind. There shouldn't be any problem setting the TV's geometry to a good setting for consoles and leaving it. You'll need the geometry control for MAME stuff, and like I said you'd have control over that on the PC end using custom resolutions in Soft15k/Powerstrip. This would actually be better, as launching individual games in custom resolutions would change geometry automatically, instead of fooling with it manually all the time.

As far as 256-line modes, you may need to add some front-end and back-end (area of blank pixels, with picture in center) and cut it down with geometry. I know there are also some differences here with PAL vs NTSC resolution standards and TVs. Most of these Japanese games were designed for NTSC-J standards, which are much closer to US NTSC than PAL. This generally resulted in American games running correct resolutions, whereas PAL was stuck with some bad compromises sometimes.

Maybe you could import an American TV, but I don't know how much of pain in the butt that would be, between shipping and dealing with different AC power. At that point, the arcade monitor is probably the better option.

You could at least try a newer UK TV first. How old is your current one? In the US, I've said that any Sony that has component input, but is still strictly 15kHz, is the right era; but in Europe, SCART TV's have been around forever. Try getting one made just before CRT TV's started supporting progressive scan. Probably early 2000's, just make sure it's 15kHz only. You should be able to find one for free or very cheap, at least just to test it out before spending the money on an arcade monitor.

You really need to have a TV/monitor in front of you to test how well it will really work with all the resolutions you want to use, and it would be cheap to try the TV first.

[lettuce]

All of the 15kHz consoles were kind of designed with a similar amount of overscan in mind. There shouldn't be any problem setting the TV's geometry to a good setting for consoles and leaving it. You'll need the geometry control for MAME stuff, and like I said you'd have control over that on the PC end using custom resolutions in Soft15k/Powerstrip. This would actually be better, as launching individual games in custom resolutions would change geometry automatically, instead of fooling with it manually all the time.

Yeah on the console side of things it is fine and no adjustment is needed...as to be expected. The version of Mame ill be using is called GroovyMAME, it uses a custom ATI driver (like soft15khz) and VMMaker, so you tell it what monitor you are using all it will create 120 custom video modes compatable with said monitor, so GroovyMame has the correct refresh rate and resolution for every game or as damn close as possible for that monitor as the real PCB

As far as 256-line modes, you may need to add some front-end and back-end (area of blank pixels, with picture in center) and cut it down with geometry. I know there are also some differences here with PAL vs NTSC resolution standards and TVs. Most of these Japanese games were designed for NTSC-J standards, which are much closer to US NTSC than PAL. This generally resulted in American games running correct resolutions, whereas PAL was stuck with some bad compromises sometimes.

Games like R-Type and Dragon Breed which are 384 x 256 pixels i need to adjust the display massively so the game is displayed (as there is massive overscan), but it still doesnt display correctly and is missing a few lines of pixels at the bottom of the screen not matter how far i move the display up, as TVs are unable to display the 256 lines.

Here you see i alter the display for Final Fight which is 384x220 pixels...





Now when i loaded up R-Type which is 384 x 256 pixels the bottom of the display is massively cut off....

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So i have to adjust it all the time, i could set the TV up so games like R-Type fit the screen but then other games would have massive borders!!

You could at least try a newer UK TV first. How old is your current one? In the US, I've said that any Sony that has component input, but is still strictly 15kHz, is the right era; but in Europe, SCART TV's have been around forever. Try getting one made just before CRT TV's started supporting progressive scan. Probably early 2000's, just make sure it's 15kHz only. You should be able to find one for free or very cheap, at least just to test it out before spending the money on an arcade monitor.

At this point in time i have 3 Sony CRT TVs all with different chassis inside. Infact the older the TV you can get your hands on the better as they will have analog chassis, the newer CRT TVs have digital chassis and result in some weird processing because of the digital nature of them. Plus the analog chassis will have pots to alter screen geometry and no OSD for the adjustments that the newer digital chassis will have

[rCadeGaming]

The version of Mame ill be using is called GroovyMAME, it uses a custom ATI driver (like soft15khz) and VMMaker, so you tell it what monitor you are using all it will create 120 custom video modes compatable with said monitor, so GroovyMame has the correct refresh rate and resolution for every game or as damn close as possible for that monitor as the real PCB

The presets generated by GroovyMAME generates will be a great starting point, but you need to be able to further adjust them yourself to get to the geometry changes you need.

So i have to adjust it all the time, i could set the TV up so games like R-Type fit the screen but then other games would have massive borders!!

What I'm trying to tell you is that you if get full control over your custom resolutions, you might be able to build these adjustments into them on the PC end, so you don't you have do it manually on the display end.

At this point in time i have 3 Sony CRT TVs all with different chassis inside. Infact the older the TV you can get your hands on the better as they will have analog chassis, the newer CRT TVs have digital chassis and result in some weird processing because of the digital nature of them. Plus the analog chassis will have pots to alter screen geometry and no OSD for the adjustments that the newer digital chassis will have

Sounds like one of your Sony's with the older chassis will be perfect. While you do need to focus on automating your adjustments on the PC end, a few might still be beyond the range of adjustment on that end (like 256 lines). The adjustment pots would be perfect.

You could desolder the adjustment pots from the chassis, mount knobbed pots of equal resistance on the case, and wire them to the correct points on the chassis, where the originals were. This would give you the easy adjustment of an OSD control board without needing the arcade monitor. Control knobs would probably be more convenient than dealing with an OSD.

Here's a thought. You could have multiple sets of pots, selectable with a switch.

[Matskat]

I don;t know if this is relevant help or not, but I run mame through a 15hs CRT.

The BEST settings I've found follow:

Use DirectDraw DO NOT USE D3D
Turn all buffering, vsync, etc OFF
Turn THROTTLE on
Turn ON Switch resolutions to fit

I have not found a single game that does not display correctly.

GOOD LUCK!

[rCadeGaming]

Matskat, looks good, but you may need vsync if you see any tearing. What kind of video card and video connection are you using? Are you running native resolutions?

[fagin]

Off topic - does anyone know if the Sony PVMs are analogue chassis?

If they are it would explain the issue I have with one of my Extron units not working with my later Sony CRT.

[lettuce]

Is there any downside to using a flat screen tri-sync monitor compared to a curved one?

[fagin]

I would say the opposite.

[lettuce]

I would say the opposite.

How so?

[fagin]

All things being equal I would say the flatter the tube the possibility of better geometry.

[rCadeGaming]

Agreed, I like flat CRT's. They have good geometry which looks the same at all viewing angles. They're also easy to fit in a cabinet, as you can just use a piece of flat plexiglass/lexan/etc. for a screen cover. No need for a bezel to fit the curvature. The Sony CRT TV's I've been talking about are flat.

I think a lot of people would disagree with us though. There is a case for the arcade authenticity of a curved screen, and all of its nostalgic imperfections.

Also, they're likely to be newer and have a digital chassis.

[ryu]

and like I said you'd have control over that on the PC end using custom resolutions in Soft15k/Powerstrip

could you elaborate on that? i haven't been able to figure out customizing geometry settings with soft15khz.

[rCadeGaming]

Soft15kHz won't give you adjustable geometry, aside from changing the modelines and reinstalling constantly. This is what Powerstrip is for.

It will let you adjust vertical and horizontal scan frequency, front-end, back-end, sync width, etc., in real time. If you're not familiar with all of those terms, don't worry. I wasn't either. I did a little reading, but I learned the most from just fiddling with them and experimenting.

Once you get the resolution as close as possible to perfect, position can be adjusted further with the slider controls in MAME. Don't use the stretch controls if you're working with native resolutions, but the position controls can be useful if necessary. For example, I run CPS/2/3 games in 392x240. The native resolution of 284x224 is positioned in the center (directdraw, no hardware stretching) with a few black pixels of overscan around it. The resolution is adjusted to be large enough that the overscan isn't visible, it's beyond the physical edge of the screen, but it gives some wiggle room to move the game resolution around and center it perfectly.

Powerstrip is also important to get the actual vertical refresh rate you're outputting from the PC matched as close as possible to original game's vertical refresh rate. I use sync to monitor refresh, and get the actual vertical refresh rate within 0.1Hz of the game refresh rate. This should be done for any game, as it's the best method for correct graphics in native resolutions. It eliminates screen tearing, while keeping the game running at it's original speed without using nasty frameskip or triple buffering.

(I've heard triplebuffering adds lag, which makes perfect sense based on how it works, can anyone confirm/deny?)

AFAIK, this is also the only way to get something like 3rd Strike to play without sound stuttering, without using frameskip.

First install the appropriate drivers for a graphics card that's compatible with Soft15kHz. Then install Soft15kHz to unlock low resolutions. Then install Powerstrip to get full control of those resolutions.

[ryu]

that's what i've been looking for. thanks for the input