"Non-Shooting" Shmups

[BulletMagnet]

An odd thought I've had with me for some time...awhile ago, on a thread I forget, someone here (I think it was Rob) said that "The future of shooting games = No Shooting." I'm not sure I agree with that, at least not completely, but I still find the idea pretty interesting to mull over, if nothing else. Since then I've expanded my shmup collection a bit and tried some new stuff...the idea of a "shooting" game where shooting really isn't the focus, whether for scoring or survival (or both) is indeed interesting to consider, at least to me. Here are a few existing games I can think of, off the top of my head, which I think might fall into that category, at least partially...

Giga Wing 2: All the GW games emphasize using the reflector to earn medals and points, but GW2 emphasizes it even more than the others, since earning big points means triggering volcanons as much as possible; shooting enemies down and collecting medals that way is almost insignificant score-wise in comparison. Even if you're not going for score you can use the reflect laser to nail everything onscreen without firing a shot, and still trigger medals (and sometimes volcanons) without even having to aim.

Kyuiin: One I've gotten ahold of relatively recently, shooting makes the game easier to 1CC, but wreaks havoc with your score; in most cases, you want to either suck enemies up using your vacuum's hose (which also fills up your "bomb" meter), or hit them with your short-range "backfire" attack to get more points out of them. The four collectable "regular" weapons seem almost like afterthoughts.

Psyvariar 2: This one's kind of on the edge of this definition...all the Psyvariar games emphasize buzzing alongside shooting (as opposed to "instead of"), but playing Psy 2 with the "Buzz Type" does so even more, although you'll still want to shoot stuff to keep your levels increasing. Then, of course, there are the boss battles in particular; other games allow you to "milk" to a certain extent, but none to the point of the Psyvariars, which encourage you to let the buggers live and spew stuff at you, just so you can skyrocket that buzz bonus.

Cotton 2 and Boomerang: These (imo) underappreciated shmups actually pushed the envelope some back in the day; for scoring (and, especially in 2, for survival), the game emphasizes the use of "command shots" to "seal" enemies, and then either "chaining" them or blasting the heck out of them. Boomerang is less a "non-shooter" than 2, since its firepower was beefed up and you could fall back on your "regular" shots in a tight spot, while in 2 you needed to use your command shots much more often to do much damage.

Vasara 1 and 2: Another fairly obscure bunch, Vasara give you the option to shoot stuff, but using the weapon attack for each character is often a better option, since not only can you score more points off of multiple enemies with it, but you can fight off bullets as well. I believe that the reviewer who put up the Vasara review here on shmups.com even said that you'll almost certainly use the weapon attack more than the regular shot as the game goes on; is that a flaw on the developer's part, or was it intentional?

XII Stag: Say what you will about it, shooting really wasn't what the game was about; as in Kyuin, shooting would make the game easier, but your score would shrink, seeing as the close-range side and back attacks built up your multiplier when used rapidly. IIRC canceling a lot of bullets with the bomb also did something to your score...

Soukyugurentai: Granted, Layer Section pioneered the lock-on mechanic and encouraged its use as much as possible, but Souky took that to the next level. For one thing, it allowed you to lock on to enemies on ALL planes, rather than those below you only (though later "Ray" games also did this, IIRC); also, the "web" took up more onscreen space and was easier to hit with than the lock-on target. Not to mention that the game punished you rank-wise if you tried to power-up your main shot (plus the less-frequent appearance of item canisters, and thus bombs, and thus the huge bomb bonus). Souky did give you the option to shoot, but then dared you to use it.

R-Type Final: Maybe I just wanted to stir the pot with this one (or I'm just misinformed), but hear me out. In every R-Type game (well, except Leo) using the Force to nail enemies and defend yourself is vital, but Final added another dimension to it, which, afaik, had never been used in an R-Type before, namely, scoring. Defeating enemies using the Force instead of shots was worth more points than if you'd done so with shots, not to mention that you charged your "Dose" meter up; I'm aware that R-Type Delta also had a similar system, but I've never played that myself, so I can't comment further on that. Granted, scoring well has never been the "real" goal of the R-Type series, in large part at least, but in the final installment at least some small piece of it was there...

Well, from here, where are we headed? Wherever it is, is it a good thing? Are there other games which might fit the mold I've mentioned? And, of course, have I made any egregious errors? I wonder what (if anything) the rest of the community thinks about this...

[superhitachi4]

I posted something like this a while back. When I get bored, I sometimes play without weapons.

[Neon]

raizing does it best, encouraging not to shoot thru rank increase, also in batrider you charge the little laser out front.

It's clever design to not make the player just hold down the fire button the entire time.

[Rob]

I hadn't noticed that in RTF, but similarly, Dragon Blaze has the force-like dragon shot, which is I guess a type of shooting, but largely replaces regular shooting (for power and scoring).

The ultimate non-shooting shooter is Shikigami 2, I think. At least, it's the one that really made me take note that I wasn't shooting at all. I think a lot of those games listed have non-traditional shooting, but fairly shot-like. Or invincibility, or the ability to backfire shots, but Shikigami 2 (like few others) has completely different sets of weapons that aren't shot-like at all. Kim's blades - if you want to score you have to use them all of the time, and they are much faster at destroying bosses, so shooting possibly even ranks third to the bombs.

I like these types of games, because usually it means some kind of scoring system that doesn't involve direct shooting.

[BulletMagnet]

raizing does it best, encouraging not to shoot thru rank increase, also in batrider you charge the little laser out front.

It's clever design to not make the player just hold down the fire button the entire time.

I guess you could lump that sort of approach under this, though that wasn't exactly what I was thinking of when I made this topic...while some of Raizing's (non-Souky) titles (most notably Garegga) do try in some ways to limit the shooting you do, you still will do quite a bit of shooting throughout, as it's the main way to beat enemies, score points, etc. (aside from bombing scenery and such). In the games listed above, shooting is such that ideally in most of the cases you'll want to avoid using it altogether; in Garegga et al that's not really the idea behind it, though I'd call the two concepts "related," at least. Though admittedly I had forgotten about the "tickle laser" from Batrider and Bakraid...IIRC you also score more points when you use that against enemies, kinda like the Force, except no protection from anything, heh.

The ultimate non-shooting shooter is Shikigami 2, I think.

I was thinking about listing that, since you do want to use your shiki attack (as opposed to your regular shot) as much as you can to score well, but I was kind of split on it...many of the character's do have a rather "non-shot-like" shiki attack, but then there are those like Kuga (basically a glorified homing shot) and Roger (a charge shot), so imo it kinda depends on the character you're using to determine how much of a "non-shooting" experience you get.

I suppose Dragon Blaze would be out there around the fringes someplace, but you do still use your regular shot to clear out small enemies, at least, and save the dragon shot for bigger guys who are tougher to kill and drop more coins.

[oxtsu]

I second SnS-II and Dragon Blaze. If playing for score, shooting is almost nonexistant.

XII Stag is fuzzy, since the multiplier hangs for a good amount of time. Also there's the barrage and boss sections where normal shot is used optimally (stage 3, 5, 6 come to mind).

[professor ganson]

Hmmm... one of the more thoughtful threads I can recall.

One of the difficulties we will run into here is simply what is going to count as a shot. I don't think we need to get too hung up on this, but it is worth noting that things are a bit complicated. A shot as ordinarily conceived does not return, so the proximity attacks in Gunbird 2 and DB seem quite different from shots. At the same time you have the yoyo type subweapons in Zanac Neo, whose attacks also return. And yet the latter strike me as shots.

Another issue is whether we are interested in cases where standard shooting can be secondary or non-existent or in cases where something else is of equal importance to shooting. The proximity attack in GB2 and DB is of equal importance to the gameplay: one cannot easily get by with only the proximity attack and forget trying to get by without it. I would say that it is on an equal footing with your normal shot.

[BulletMagnet]

Yeah, everyone definitely has a different definition of what counts as "shooting" and what doesn't (not to mention of "how important" something is), but I figure that, as you say, that's really not too big of a deal, we don't need to reach some kind of "final consensus" or whatever to have a discussion of it, as long as everyone is willing to let everyone else express themselves without being insulted or whatnot.

For myself, it's kind of tough to say...I consider most very-close-range attacks (Vasara's weapons, Kyuin's backfire, Stag's wiggle attacks) as "non-shots," since they're not even projectiles, but of course that brings up what "very close" is. In other cases I just kind of go with my gut, and decide whether or not something "feels like" shooting, for lack of a batter word; Cotton's command moves and sealing techniques, for instance, are definitely projectiles and could ostensibly be called "shots," but executing them is very different from just tapping a button to shoot something, and the seal is a whole different story in itself. Then there's Souky's targeting web; it's a distance attack, certainly, but the fact that you're left open to certain attacks (and kamikaze craft) while you're getting the target locked and launching the attack feels different to me than just shooting something; you can't just get right in front of an approaching ship and target it as you could with regular shots, as the thing will ram into you before you can get it. And so on and so forth...again, I'm not too concerned with hard-and-fast definitions here, I'd just like to hear different people's perspectives.

[LoneSage]

Ah, Tekkaman Blade!

[PC Engine Fan X!]

If you recall Kenta Cho's brillant PC shmup-like game of "Every Extend", it doesn't feature any shooting from the player but rather using "bombs" to set up the ultimate "bomb chains links". Very different way of playing a game with that type of setup.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[ResOGlas]

Captain Tomaday!

[it290]

Iky's dot-eater mode would be another to add to the list.

[Icarus]

Giga Wing 2: ...

Did you know it's possible to score no points and still ALL the game? Japanese master VTF-INO proved it can be done (for a competition run by a magazine, either Gamest, Arcadia or Famitsu, can't remember which) using Limi and Romi. I think there was some shooting involved (and an occasional bomb), but most of the time he was just dodging patterns.

Soukyugurentai: ...

There's actually a control setup which lets you activate the Web without firing a Shot, I think it's located in Edit Type. In some ways it's better to have this edited setup, as you can be more precise in your scoring (no accidental kills).

R-Type Final: ...

Yes, ramming enemies and bullets with your Force Device increases your Dose Gauge in both Delta and Final. When your Dose is maxed, the rate of score increase when something strikes the Force is doubled. Score players will do best to quickly maximise the Dose Gauge early in both games, and create routes through stages where only the Force Device is used to attack (the R-13 line of ships is best for this, with the grappling Anchor Type Force).

If anything, the scoring system in both Delta and Final suffer from "retro shmup syndrome" where suicide strategy to exploit checkpoints are paramount. Final makes it worse, though, with it's inconsistent score tallying.

Cotton 2 and Boomerang: ...

Yes, sealing the enemies using a command attack and then catching/throwing them back at enemies to create chains was all part of the gameplay. While in Cotton 2 I believe you only needed to worry about one type of seal (Flame, IIRC) in Boomerang each selectable character had different elemental seals that affected the way the captured enemy would behave - Wind would make the enemy float upwards, Ice sent them dropping to the ground like a rock and Flame did the slow dropping floating thing - and careful selection of your team was paramount in both scoring and survival.

Been a while since I last played them, so my info might be a little incorrect.

Well, from here, where are we headed? Wherever it is, is it a good thing? Are there other games which might fit the mold I've mentioned? And, of course, have I made any egregious errors? I wonder what (if anything) the rest of the community thinks about this...

It's certainly an interesting gameplay element that should be exploited in the near future, if not by established softdevs then by doujin homebrew shmup makers. I'd be interested to see a good game that pushes the "no shooting" aspect of gameplay.

By the way, in your list, you forgot EVERY EXTEND. It's not shooting. It's blowing yourself up ^_-

AIRRADE Air also gives you close range melee attacks, and most of your time is spent using them to create chains.

And NIGHT RAID, where you'd throw a copy of your ship around the screen, pinballing off enemies.

Oh, also in MARS MATRIX, there is a possibility of playing the game using just the Mosquito Shield. Mode7 did a few stage replays a long time ago, of later stages tackled just with the Shield weapon.

There are a few other games that feature secondary attacks that can be used in a non-shooting game, while some like Shikigami 2 and Psy have already been listed.

[Ganelon]

Did you know it's possible to score no points and still ALL the game? Japanese master VTF-INO proved it can be done (for a competition run by a magazine, either Gamest, Arcadia or Famitsu, can't remember which) using Limi and Romi. I think there was some shooting involved (and an occasional bomb), but most of the time he was just dodging patterns.

I believe in a few shooters, you don't need to score points to win. I can't do it but I'm pretty sure you can with Gradius V since all the bosses escape after a certain period of time. Don't recall though whether shooting at the background stuff impeding your path nets you points.

[Zweihander]

don't forget Ikaruga's "dot eater" rank seriously, if you want a fucking hard game, play Ikaruga on a Dot Eater run.

[dessgeega]

If you recall Kenta Cho's brillant PC shmup-like game of "Every Extend"

kenta cho absolutely did not make that game. every extend was developed by OMEGA.

[Randorama]

Raystorm with R-gray 02. You basically shoot during boss battles
and whenever you need to damage tougher enemies involved in a chain. R-Gray 01 is a bit more linear...

Giga Wing Generations works not unlike chapter 2, shooting is more necessary to blow up tougher enemies and clean sections, reflecting with a point black is the 60% of the game.

Back to the Rayseries, Raycrisis has the same principles for R-Gray 01 and R-Gray 02, while R-Gray 03 is a mix between Cave-like chaining and lock-on...at any case, it only shoots lock-ons lasers.

[BulletMagnet]

Did you know it's possible to score no points and still ALL the game?

Heh, I had heard something to that effect...IIRC since everything is connected to the medal multiplier, as long as you don't collect any medals you can shoot just about anything you want and its value will be multiplied by x0. Theoretically, could you do the same with the other Takumi games with such a multiplier?

There's actually a control setup which lets you activate the Web without firing a Shot, I think it's located in Edit Type. In some ways it's better to have this edited setup, as you can be more precise in your scoring (no accidental kills).

Hmm, I didn't know that offhand, though I wonder if some "hardcore" score competition types would allow it in a "serious" competition or the like, since I doubt the option existed on the original arcade game. I don't know the game well enough to know whether or not there are certain spots wherein it's more or less impossible to avoid killing something with such a wayward shot while charging up your web, but I wonder if it'd be a big enough nitpick to call for separate score tables, heh.

If anything, the scoring system in both Delta and Final suffer from "retro shmup syndrome" where suicide strategy to exploit checkpoints are paramount. Final makes it worse, though, with it's inconsistent score tallying.

Not like you're one who's adverse to suiciding for scoring purposes to begin with.

While in Cotton 2 I believe you only needed to worry about one type of seal (Flame, IIRC) in Boomerang each selectable character had different elemental seals that affected the way the captured enemy would behave - Wind would make the enemy float upwards, Ice sent them dropping to the ground like a rock and Flame did the slow dropping floating thing - and careful selection of your team was paramount in both scoring and survival.

Actually, in Cotton 2 your character could switch between Fire (basic), Ice (reflecting), Wind (homing), or Light (piercing) shots, and their respectively-behaving seals, by shooting a yellow power-up crystal until it changed to a certain color (red, blue, green, or white, respectively), and then collecting it (doing so would also add an extra "magic" bomb to your stock). Fire was usually your best choice for chaining, but Ice was usually easiest for "pursuit" shots (and thus health recovery) while Wind and Light could be handly for nailing certain oddball enemy formations. While overall I like Boomerang more than 2, the ability to switch semi-easily depending on your situation is one thing I miss about it...in Boomerang you're kind of stuck with the innate shot your character's got, until you either die or waste a bomb to switch. Ah well, can't have everything, heh.

Oh, also in MARS MATRIX, there is a possibility of playing the game using just the Mosquito Shield. Mode7 did a few stage replays a long time ago, of later stages tackled just with the Shield weapon.

I thought of mentioning that too, but I wanted to limit myself a bit, to games in which not shooting much is actually desirable in a "normal" game (as in, it helps survival, score, or both), as opposed to just being there to show off, heh. Though that's always another motivation.

I also wondered how long it'd take for someone to toss a doujin game or two up here...I figured I'd stick with "official" releases to keep things simple, but indeed, there are some definite oddballs out there in the homebrew scene, probably tons we don't even know about (at least until Postman hunts them down, heh heh).

I've actually never tried playing Ikaruga as a "dot eater," though I have heard of it...maybe I oughta humor myself...

I know next to nothing about Tekkaman Blade and Captain Tomaday, but I get the feeling that they were joke responses, heh heh.

[Rob]

Tekkaman Blade is a crappy proto Sol Divide since it's like a 50/50 hack n slash/yo-yo shooter (staff shoots out and returns to player).

[professor ganson]

So does Rajirugi count here? I haven't played it yet.

[Kiken]

If anything, the scoring system in both Delta and Final suffer from "retro shmup syndrome" where suicide strategy to exploit checkpoints are paramount. Final makes it worse, though, with it's inconsistent score tallying.

R-Type Delta balances this out by removing extends and having only a single loop. You only get 3 lives per credit to complete the game (thus limiting the check-point milking of the prior iterations), which is a preset 7 stages in length.

[FRO]

I hadn't noticed that in RTF, but similarly, Dragon Blaze has the force-like dragon shot, which is I guess a type of shooting, but largely replaces regular shooting (for power and scoring).

Yeah, that's kind of like Cyvern, where you use the "power-shot" (hold the fire button down for a different kind of shot that has a charge meter that runs out) to strike ground enemies to release bigger & better medals each time, increasing your score. Or like in Brave Blade where you use the melee/sword attack to fend off bullets, strike the enemy, & whack medals to increase their value. I really like the "special weapon" dynamic in both games, which is why I've been so addicted to them as of late. It's like a step up from the Battle Garegga/Bakraid mentality of "collect all medals, but don't miss one!" except that it's a bit more forgiving.

I'm finding less shooting in Chaos Field as well, where I'm using the Wing-Layer & sword attacks more. I would agree with many of the sentiments above that the future of "shmups" isn't entirely about eliminating shooting, but I think less of an emphasis on straight blasting (as evidenced by other games like Ikaruga) is probably the way many companies will try to focus their energies so the games stay more fresh & innovating.

[Rob]

So does Rajirugi count here? I haven't played it yet.

So far it kind of looks like it. For score, the regular shot only gives 1 blue capsule per destroyed enemy. The sword gives 3 (or more?) capsules for every swipe. So for collecting blue capsules, continually using the shield for scoring, shooting is worthless. For survival shooting also seems really weak, too.

I'm thinking the only purpose for shooting is probably desperation (not being able to get close to enemies) or weakening larger targets (bosses) while slashing. They have multiple parts and it might be difficult to destroy them all with sword and shield alone.

[BulletMagnet]

Wow, never thought I'd see this thing resurrected, heh heh.

In any event, I haven't played Rajirugi yet, but if it does indeed head in the "no shooting" direction, I can see why you like it, Rob.

[J-Manic]

I can kinda see how Ikaruga, R-Type Delta/Final, Giga Wing 2 (although it would be extremely hard having to dodge bullets while having to wait for your reflect barrier to charge up) & Mars Matrix (same situation as Giga Wing 2) could all be beating, or at least played without firing a single shot. It may be impossible for GW2 & Mars Matrix though since both games have super fast bullets coming at you, but definetly Ikaruga and the R-Types. I've actually reached the 4th stage in R-Type Delta killing enemies with only my Force Orb before. It was tough.

The Layer Section series would be too difficult IMO. You would have to get up close to the enemies too much in order to lock on your laser. And those bullets they shoot at you can be mighty accurate.

[Twiddle]

So does Rajirugi count here? I haven't played it yet.

So far it kind of looks like it. For score, the regular shot only gives 1 blue capsule per destroyed enemy. The sword gives 3 (or more?) capsules for every swipe. So for collecting blue capsules, continually using the shield for scoring, shooting is worthless. For survival shooting also seems really weak, too.

I'm thinking the only purpose for shooting is probably desperation (not being able to get close to enemies) or weakening larger targets (bosses) while slashing. They have multiple parts and it might be difficult to destroy them all with sword and shield alone.

You shoot popcorn enemies to cash in your multiplier

[system11]

I'm working on a game design at the moment which would count as part of the genre, but in which you don't have a gun AND can't move. Try to imagine Star Castle crossed with Galaxian, with role reversal, sort of.

I'm still gathering ideas together at the moment, plan is to document it all, right down as far as some of the algorithms needed, and post that in the dev forum in case someone wants to write it.

I may alternatively just code it myself. It's well within my abilities, or was (gave up programming about 5 years ago). I've bought BlitzMax to poke around with, seems like it would do the job if only I could find some decent documentation

[WarpZone]

I'd also give Ikaruga a mention, but not just because of playing for the dot-eater rank. Although that gives the game a sort of implicit guarantee that anything can be passed without shooting, the real point behind it is to give the player more choice in which sections he decides to "participate" in or not, and to what extent (yes, I think the game is actually quite flexible ). Purposely abstaining from the fire button is a perfectly legit strategy for serious play, and can benefit survival and score. ie: I might chain half of a pattern, then start dot-eating when the going gets rough to avoid a potential death, meaning I'll get further and onto some other pattern chunks that I can chain again. In that sense, polarity-switching is always the "base" mechanic of the game, not firing. During my first 1CC, I'm sure over a fourth of my time was spent going into "caution mode".

---

I also absolutely think the future of shooting games doesn't necessarily have to involve "just" shooting, and I think we'll keep seeing other interesting mechanics. If you think about it, the shooting mechanic in abstract has sort of a detatched, boring feel (*prepares flame shield* ). But just bear with me for a second. When a ship shoots and hits something, you are in control of only half of that mechanic- when the shot is created. The other half - the ultimate destination of the shot - has no player involvement. It has a consequence, of course, and this will determine your further actions, but half of the mechanic is still indirect. As the shot travels through the air, it's literally creating a sort of lag time between the cause and effect within the game.

And I think this is something many shooting-game developers realize, at least on some intuitive level. That there should be something else going on to make the interaction feel a bit more...well, interactive. And so you do see these other, more tangible mechanics, that do just that. "Riding" a fat laser as it repels your ship in Ikaruga, diving into a bullet cloud and "flicking" the bullets back in a desired direction in Mars Matrix, "ramming" enemies with the Force in R-Type as a sort of melee weapon, or even using the grapple-beam in, yes, Zero Wing, to grab and toss enemies. In some shooters, it's really these qualities that end up defining the gameplay as much or more than the shooting mechanic itself, and give them a more visceral immediacy. And it certainly can give them their individual identity! When was the last time you were interested in a shmup and asked someone "do you shoot in it?"

And all this isn't to say that there is some "flaw" within the genre that somehow needs to be ironed out...it's just the way things work. And when the genre is approached from this angle...it really opens up.

It might also explain why I don't really like Compile shooters

[Minzoku]

R-Type Final: In every R-Type game (well, except Leo) using the Force to nail enemies and defend yourself is vital, but Final added another dimension to it, which, afaik, had never been used in an R-Type before, namely, scoring.

I turned on Invincibility one day and walked away, just to get those last ships unlocked, returning only to advance to the next stage, and I beat my previous high scores... by not playing...

Cheats ruining the experience of a game? NO...

[Rob]

You shoot popcorn enemies to cash in your multiplier

Have you played the game?