The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[O. Van Bruce]

5-10 hours a day? If getting good is that important to you I'm honestly speechless. Enjoy being the best at a niche genre, I'm sure it will bring you happiness and fulfillment.

You're not getting it.

I'm pretty sure Gus doesn't play these games so much just so that he can come here and show off about it. It's more likely because he enjoys playing long sessions and seeing his own progress. If you play for ten hours a day rather than say, two hours a day, it's a no-brainer that you will see much faster progress, and chasing higher scores is what's most satisfying about these games.

Just because something's a hobby, that doesn't mean you should feel ashamed for spending a lot of time on it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who practice guitar for hours a day as a hobby, for example.

I can see why some people take offense to some of his posts, but I find it ridiculous that on a forum devoted entirely to this niche genre, Gus actually gets stick for being a dedicated player. Maybe all of those top Japanese players who spend hour after hour, day after day in arcades practicing should all just 'get a life', play for 30 mins a day max and cheese as many 1CCs as possible so they can quickly move on to the next. At least they'd be accepted on shmups forum.

No prob, but he should stop lecturing other people. Nobody is looking down on him but he seems to do it to us just because we lack "passion".

For whom Sinmoon is not a hero?

[dunpeal2064]

You're not getting it.

If you play for ten hours a day rather than say, two hours a day, it's a no-brainer that you will see much faster progress, and chasing higher scores is what's most satisfying about these games.

But, like Icarus said, they WAY you practice is much more important than the amount of time. I can imagine DrTP sitting practicing for 10 hours, and still not learning as much as many people here could learn in one hour.

I really don't think 10 hrs a day is necessary, but of course, is someone is using all 10 hrs to practice well, then yes, they will progrss fast. Of course, some of us here also enjoy thiings other than scoring in shmups, like having lives

I think you can stil make good progress by playing maybe an hour or two a day, and just making sure you actually learn something each time. It will probably take you longer than Gus though.

[Marc]

5-10 hours a day? If getting good is that important to you I'm honestly speechless. Enjoy being the best at a niche genre, I'm sure it will bring you happiness and fulfillment.

You're not getting it.

I'm pretty sure Gus doesn't play these games so much just so that he can come here and show off about it.

I'm not getting it? You've read his posts - properly - right?
As mentioned above, he's already called into question the 'passion' of anyone that seems to put in less effort/play than himself. Five-ten hour sessions are simply out of the question for anyone that has a family or full-time job, but I've been playing Shmups since Konami converted Super Cobra to Intellivision, and I can't be arsed with some asshole that thinks he's a cut above because he has too much time to kill. I actually have a passion for videogaming full stop, and though Shmups are my first love there's simply too much good stuff out there to limit myself to one genre no matter how much play time I may (not) have free.

I've said time and time again recently that when the like of Sapz and Icarus speak, I - and I would guess many others - tend to listen, because of the manner in which they do it. Some of their comments have helped me approach things from a different angle, helped me to understand the idiosyncrasies of various games, and I'm slowly improving because of their assistance. When someone simply spouts ignorant vitriol directed at pretty much anyone less competent than himself, it's simply annoying.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

What the hell were the makers of Judgment SilverSword thinking with this final attack? I have no idea how this could have possibly been viewed as a fair attack.

The attack gets faster as its health goes down. You have lasers shot directly at you every so often and in shorter intervals as the attack goes on. Lots of aimed bullet streams. Near undodgeable bullet patterns at points that have to be repelled in order to be dodged, ad you likely need to use the replling ability earlier, and you don't charge up anywhere near fast enough. And on top of this, lots of green lasers that stay on the screen, go into all sorts of positions, so you have to factor all of them being in different spots, these green lasers move at the same time, and they move at you when they do move. The only way to clear these green lasers is by them maybe leaving the screen after you die.


I can't even beat the attack in practice with 4 spare lives going into the thing. The times I got to it in full runs were with even less.

Secret Ship Hard mode by the way. The default ship pattern looks a lot more doable, but then I'd be sucking at the rest of the game. And I suck at that final attack too.

[Gus]

Thanks, Paradigm.

No prob, but he should stop lecturing other people. Nobody is looking down on him but he seems to do it to us just because we lack "passion"

There is no lecturing going on. I've already said I don't care if someone plays casually and I'm not going let the lack of competent players discourage me from playing the hell out of the games. It does, however, make me view the forum as a joke.

I'm not getting it? You've read his posts - properly - right?
As mentioned above, he's already called into question the 'passion' of anyone that seems to put in less effort/play than himself. Five-ten hour sessions are simply out of the question for anyone that has a family or full-time job, but I've been playing Shmups since Konami converted Super Cobra to Intellivision, and I can't be arsed with some asshole that thinks he's a cut above because he has too much time to kill. I actually have a passion for videogaming full stop, and though Shmups are my first love there's simply too much good stuff out there to limit myself to one genre no matter how much play time I may (not) have free.

So let me get this straight, it's somehow a horrible thing for me to say I have more passion than you, yet you openly refuse to go full shmup because "there's too much good stuff out there"? You can't have it both ways, pal.

[ancestral-knowledge]

It does, however, make me view the forum as a joke

simply put: then gtfo

So let me get this straight, it's somehow a horrible thing for me to say I have more passion than you, yet you openly refuse to go full shmup because "there's too much good stuff out there"? You can't have it both ways, pal.

wow i am amazed at your reading comprehension. You didn't understand anything of marc's post. lmao

after reading all this crap i'm going back to laughing at chinese people who die in car accidents. fun time!

[NzzpNzzp]

So let me get this straight, it's somehow a horrible thing for me to say I have more passion than you, yet you openly refuse to go full shmup because "there's too much good stuff out there"? You can't have it both ways, pal.

Saying you're more passionate isn't a problem. Implying people are bad is a problem.

You shouldn't hurt their feelings by suggesting they're not great, dude. They 1cc'd Daifukkatsu with strong style, they're pro, don't try and bring them down.

[O. Van Bruce]

So let me get this straight, it's somehow a horrible thing for me to say I have more passion than you, yet you openly refuse to go full shmup because "there's too much good stuff out there"? You can't have it both ways, pal.

Saying you're more passionate isn't a problem. Implying people are bad is a problem.

You shouldn't hurt their feelings by suggesting they're not great, dude. They 1cc'd Daifukkatsu with strong style, they're pro, don't try and bring them down.

And he says he's not trying to lecture us...

[Marc]

So let me get this straight, it's somehow a horrible thing for me to say I have more passion than you, yet you openly refuse to go full shmup because "there's too much good stuff out there"? You can't have it both ways, pal.

Saying you're more passionate isn't a problem. Implying people are bad is a problem.

You shouldn't hurt their feelings by suggesting they're not great, dude. They 1cc'd Daifukkatsu with strong style, they're pro, don't try and bring them down.

If I ever let some dude on the internet, that thinks playing for ten hours a day is something to aspire to - hurt my feelings, I'd shoot myself in the face. I do however, find the repetition and arrogance overbearingly tedious, and I don't seem to be the only one.

'Go full shmup' indeed, fuck me.

[NzzpNzzp]

He didn't say it was something to aspire to, he just said it was something you'd need to do if you wanted to get good.
It's pretty true, too, you don't get good at these sorta games without a lot of practice.

[Gus]

When you think about it these games are all about consistency. Sure, being able to read through and dodge patterns on the fly is very helpful but at the end of the day it's all about planning out a route, practicing that route until you feel comfortable with it, and then getting that one run without the big fuck up. When you decide to start doing full runs it's like taking a gamble at a slot machine. You have no idea when you'll get that great run or even if you will but you definitely want your odds to be as high as possible. At the end of the day, while guys might come on here and pretend otherwise if you wanna get good scores fast you've gotta play hard and play often. The top Japanese players sure as hell do.

It's no surprise to me at all to see posts like that one above from Marc. Sure people might listen to Icarus and Sapz but that's only because they sugar-coat things. That 99% of the posts here are shit, that 99% of the players here are shit, and that stage grinding is by far the most reliable and fastest way to get good are all things they skirt around that I have no problem coming out and saying.

[CloudyMusic]

Setting aside things like practice methodology and natural talent for the moment, people who put more time into practicing anything will be better at it than people who don't. This is true for pretty much every type of hobby, and there's no reason to get upset about it. Some people want to dedicate themselves to being very good at one type of game, while others are content simply being "okay" at a few different types (or dedicating themselves to one type of game, but not dedicating as much of their life to it).

The main point that Gus is trying to make is truthful, and though it seems to often be worded in a pretty abrasive way, at the end of the day it's true that you have to dedicate a large amount of time if you want to become a top-level player. You're not going to be setting world records in anything by playing for an hour a day spread across five different games. That said, that doesn't make the more casual players less-valid human beings or worthy of open contempt or mockery, though that much should be obvious to anyone who doesn't have a personality disorder.

[Hagane]

What Gus doesn't seem to understand is that, no matter how passionate you are, some people have real life obligations that prevent them from playing as much time as he does. Like work, family, college, etc. Out of curiosity, do you do have to put with any of these, Gus?

Also, while playing ten hours a day may be good for him, for some players (such as Icarus) that kind of thing just doesn't work. Personally, such long sessions tire me a lot unless they are once in a while and my consistency drops after a couple of hours. I just practice with savestates a couple of hours a day the spots I have more trouble with. So far that's working pretty well.

[Deca]

OK I'm finally tired of this thread.

[Marc]

Yeah, it's like slamming my dick in a cupboard door.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I wonder how many people give a shit someone's score if he's managed to alienate everyone in the process?

my dick in a cupboard door.

your penis would fit better in the door of a luxury sedan

[Deca]

A score is a score, even if I outright despised someone I'd give respect and credit where it's deserved.

[RNGmaster]

What Gus doesn't seem to understand is that, no matter how passionate you are, some people have real life obligations that prevent them from playing as much time as he does. Like work, family, college, etc. Out of curiosity, do you do have to put with any of these, Gus?

Also, while playing ten hours a day may be good for him, for some players (such as Icarus) that kind of thing just doesn't work. Personally, such long sessions tire me a lot unless they are once in a while and my consistency drops after a couple of hours. I just practice with savestates a couple of hours a day the spots I have more trouble with. So far that's working pretty well.

I think it's pretty evident that there are several ways to become really good at shmups. I can't deny that Gus's method produces some pretty good results (he's done all this in a year) but on the IRC channels he's on he always talks about how he doesn't need friends or girlfirends or other hobbies because he has shmups. Sorry, but I don't think I'm willing to make that sacrifice even if it means getting his godly Fucktari scores.

This isn't to say I'm content with being a shit player - I'm working regularly on 2-ALLing a Psikyo game - but I do not value getting good quickly enough that I'm willing to throw away the rest of my life and become a shut-in. Generally I am pretty sympathetic to Gus, but I think that his exhaustive practice times are producing diminishing returns - he could practice almost as effficiently and gain skill almost as quickly with just 2 or 3 hours a day. Prometheus might have taken years to 2-ALL DDP practicing about an hour or two a day, but during that time he also held down a job, went to school, had a girlfriend, and I think that intrinsically that stuff has much more value than staying home, playing shmups, and excusing your social withdrawal by saying "I have Assburgers".

Sorry for rambling, but I've been meaning to say this for a while.

[Icarus]

… stuff…

QFT. *clapclap*

I respect the scores, but I don't respect players who 1) look down on others, and 2) do nothing to help others improve.
I'm also offended by the fact that I might be a "fucking casual" because I don't grind out results for ten hours a day, and I should "go full shmup" - throwing away my social life, career, and other hobbies/interests - just to satisfy someone's ego trip. I'm also disgusted at the fact that someone thinks I might be sugar-coating the things I say to other people.
Finally, some good scores in one or two games does not a fantastic player make. There are at the very least twenty players in this community that I have a greater level of respect for, not just because they have good scores in a variety of games, but because they also help other players improve.

“Be the change you want to see in the world.” - Mahatma Ghandi

[emphatic]

I fully agree with these two last posts. Let's see how good he is without save states or training modes.

[Aliquantic]

I fully agree with these two last posts. Let's see how good he is without save states or training modes.

Was that comment in jest? Nobody is talking about how you should be playing (except that you should be using the optimum way to train *if* you want best results), and training modes (or savestates but that's not relevant for Gus) aren't exactly novel...

Gus's own life is currently just shmupping, with the burning passion of a newly converted zealot... we've gone over that a *lot* on our IRC channel of late, and it's mildly challenging to get the point across No, passionate people who aren't paid professionals don't dedicate that much time to their hobbies, be they shmups or otherwise, and you aren't going to change anyone's playing habits by being abrasive and holier-than-thou, Gus. But then you did admit you enjoyed trolling Shmups Chat

[emphatic]

Was that comment in jest? Nobody is talking about how you should be playing (except that you should be using the optimum way to train *if* you want best results), and training modes (or savestates but that's not relevant for Gus) aren't exactly novel...

Of course not. It's my opinion.

[Marc]

I think this thread ended with Icarus's post.

[RNGmaster]

Finally, some good scores in one or two games does not a fantastic player make.

Oh man is this an important point, and not one that people bring up very often. To be a really good shmupper in my opinion you have to be versatile and have skill that carries over between games and between subgenres. It takes skill that can only be gained through years of experience, not through watching replays.

[CloudyMusic]

[snip]

Sorry for rambling, but I've been meaning to say this for a while.

You said it much better than I could, thanks.

Coincidentally, I actually was thinking about this earlier and made the (rather obvious) realization that anybody who has a full-time job does not have enough hours in the day to play the kinds of hours that Gus is talking about, at least not on work days, and not without reducing your sleep schedule to 4 hours a night or less.

This whole discussion could probably be boiled down to "1) Practice a lot -- and efficiently -- if you want to get good. 2) Don't be a douchebag.", I suppose, so I'll leave this particular topic there.

[Bananamatic]

isn't the dodonpachi WR guy a douche?

[mesh control]

lol this is still a thread?

[Illyrian]

isn't the dodonpachi WR guy a douche?

SOF-WTN?

Yeah he's a cockwaffle

[AntiFritz]

isn't the dodonpachi WR guy a douche?

SOF-WTN?

Yeah he's a cockwaffle

Ellaborate.

[NTSC-J]

isn't the dodonpachi WR guy a douche?

Yea, he's known for being kind of rough around the edges.

Funny enough, the Futari BL Original WR holder is infamous for being a major douchebag. He was actually banned from an arcade for throwing tantrums when messing up runs. The lesson here is that Futari erodes the soul.

They don't all have to be like that, though. Clover-TAC has mastered many games, plays them tons, and is a real nice guy.