The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[TheSoundofRed]

DTP,

I second any previous recommendations of Psikyo titles. Any of the Strikers games as well as Gunbird 2, or Tengai if you're into a hori.
I think someone else aslo recommended you check out Eschatos, and I definitely agree. The scoring system is as simple as "kill everything on the screen", and the music is too good to miss (although that's an entirely subjective point).

Have you watched the 1-sissy run for Under Defeat? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6_PqFzh_kc
You should definitely watch it as the entire focus is to clear Under Defeat, neglecting score. Maybe you could take your current run strategies and integrate some of the 1-sissy learnings?

[AntiFritz]

Black Label only has one loop, so there is less room for mistake maybe? There are plenty of DFK pros here that will give you all the pros and cons.

Shit, I'll start playing it with you, I have no idea how the game really works, been sitting on my shelf for too long.

I don't know. The necessary reading and three hour exam required to be allowed to play seems pretty difficult.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... atsu+black

Just read that. It's like a fucking owners' manual for operating a particle accelerator.

1.5 or black I don't give a shit though I'll play either. I know pretty much nothing about either of them.

DFK isn't as hard to comprehend as something like hellsinker or espgaluda 2 black label though.

[Deca]

As far as what you have to think about while actually playing, dfk really isn't complicated at all. Point blank->hyper->raise chain as much as possible via bullet cancel->chain normally. Execution is somewhat difficult and route planning could be complicated, but it's not confusing to play at all.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Not crazy about 1.5.

I think it's pretty obvious that the majority of stage 5 is unavoidable splurge. Frankly stage 3 and 4 are not much better but you can sometimes stumble through it with a hyper to help. Way too much shit on screen and too many enemies. It's like playing futari ultra.

Did manage to stay on the alternative course through to stage 4 mid-boss at least. Dunno if that's good or not.

[Erppo]

I think it's pretty obvious that the majority of stage 5 is unavoidable splurge

I think it's pretty obvious someone has never watched a single decent replay of the game.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think it's pretty obvious that the majority of stage 5 is unavoidable splurge

I think it's pretty obvious someone has never watched a single decent replay of the game.

What's the point? Replays are nice to watch for the fantasy play they showcase but their usefulness is close to zero because you learn almost nothing from them. The paths are unrepeatable unless you've spent the thousands of hours of trial and error working them out and committing them to memory yourself.

[mesh control]

Go to the strategy board.

[Sapz]

"Fantasy play"? Difficult things may require you to learn a route, that's just common sense. I'm not sure what's fantastical about that. Here's one I made earlier, many parts more or less copied from other people's routes - using other replays as a guide works like a charm.

Also, how's the Psikyo coming along?

[Aliquantic]

I've come to feel a little bit like you DTP ever since I picked up IIDX... you should give that game a try, it's more punishing than nearly any shmup out here (As in, time-consuming)

I'd like to see you stick to DFK 1.5 though... with Strong type, and lots of auto-bomb, there's no reason you couldn't clear the game right now (if you actually try it for more than half an hour) given your progress in other, harder games.

[iconoclast]

I think it's pretty obvious that the majority of stage 5 is unavoidable splurge

I think it's pretty obvious someone has never watched a single decent replay of the game.

What's the point? Replays are nice to watch for the fantasy play they showcase but their usefulness is close to zero because you learn almost nothing from them. The paths are unrepeatable unless you've spent the thousands of hours of trial and error working them out and committing them to memory yourself.

Watch replays that are close to the level you're aiming for, don't just watch really high scoring runs. A 300m Futari Original replay, or a 250m Akai Katana replay might be more useful to you than 500m in either game, for example.

[mesh control]

using other replays as a guide works like a charm.

Seriously.

Watch that and try to learn something.

[dunpeal2064]

try to learn something.

[StarCreator]

I've come to feel a little bit like you DTP ever since I picked up IIDX... you should give that game a try, it's more punishing than nearly any shmup out here (As in, time-consuming)

Funny you should mention IIDX... I just happened to work out last night that in the span of about 1.5 years, my Ex Score on Heavenly Sun [H] went down by 52 >.>;

[spineshark]

If you actually think you're not learning anything watching really stellar players (which I do personally feel sometimes watching a game like Galuda II where I'm not good enough at the "basic" scoring to really get all of the complicated moves) the replay feature on 360 games is even better, because you're not just at the whim of which great replays are available. You can search for your exact character! You can find players who are close to your skill level! Not everyone uploads replays, but I've really found it an exciting tool to learn and compare with.

(Incidentally I was in a completely fruitless discussion about the difficulty of shmups vs IIDX last night, mostly because neither of us were comparably good at either)

[Obscura]

Not a grievance as much as a funny observation that goes nowhere well at all:

After playing nothing but Ketsui and Crimzon Clover for the last week and having just pumped a credit into Futari 1.5 Original on a whim, Futari suddenly seems a lot easier. Despite somehow managing to 2-miss stage 1 (!!!), I somehow managed to get the furthest I ever have on one credit (to the stage 4 boss).

[DrTrouserPlank]

"Fantasy play"? Difficult things may require you to learn a route, that's just common sense. I'm not sure what's fantastical about that. Here's one I made earlier, many parts more or less copied from other people's routes - using other replays as a guide works like a charm.

Also, how's the Psikyo coming along?

It doesn't help you to learn to play any better though unless you are using it to learn a "trick" to beat an awkward pattern. Trying to copy another person's routes will take just as long if not longer than it would have to work them out yourself through trial and error where the memorisation occurs naturally as the route evolves. Memorising someone else's routes would be equivalent to trying to memorise pages of a book written in a foreign language; very difficult because the words are meaningless. Good for you if you are finding other people's replays useful, but they don't do anything for me because learning a route parrot-fashion is an inefficient way of learning and is no better than trial and error. Neither method is efficient, but as far as I can see those are the only options available.

If it weren't for people making ridiculous claims about clearing games after half an hour or on their first go I'd not be dissatisfied with my rate of progress. It's about on course for how quickly I'd expect anyone to improve. Clearing the games and setting top scores would take hundreds and thousands of hours practice respectively as far as I can see. Literally a full-time job/obsession.

I like how the chain in the game drops for no reason despite you still killing enemies, that's a great feature.

Haven't tried any other games yet. Trying to get my money's worth out of these before I start playing others.

[mesh control]

"Fantasy play"? Difficult things may require you to learn a route, that's just common sense. I'm not sure what's fantastical about that. Here's one I made earlier, many parts more or less copied from other people's routes - using other replays as a guide works like a charm.

Also, how's the Psikyo coming along?

It doesn't help you to learn to play any better though unless you are using it to learn a "trick" to beat an awkward pattern. Trying to copy another person's routes will take just as long if not longer than it would have to work them out yourself through trial and error where the memorisation occurs naturally as the route evolves. Memorising someone else's routes would be equivalent to trying to memorise pages of a book written in a foreign language; very difficult because the words are meaningless. Good for you if you are finding other people's replays useful, but they don't do anything for me because learning a route parrot-fashion is an inefficient way of learning and is no better than trial and error. Neither method is efficient, but as far as I can see those are the only options available.

If it weren't for people making ridiculous claims about clearing games after half an hour or on their first go I'd not be dissatisfied with my rate of progress. It's about on course for how quickly I'd expect anyone to improve. Clearing the games and setting top scores would take hundreds and thousands of hours practice respectively as far as I can see. Literally a full-time job/obsession.

I like how the chain in the game drops for no reason despite you still killing enemies, that's a great feature.

Haven't tried any other games yet. Trying to get my money's worth out of these before I start playing others.

[DrTrouserPlank]

mesh control.gif

Glad to see you maintaining your usual standard of utterly useless contribution.

[mesh control]

right back atcha, buddy.

[Deca]

Glad to see you maintaining your usual standard of utterly useless contribution.

I don't even know how to respond to this, I'm just sitting here laughing.


At any rate, last week in two evenings of play I was able to work out a scoring route for st1-1 of DFK that consistently activated Ura and gave me the first score based extend. I did this by studying replays provided by emuser and sapz. Total playtime invested before consistent success was maybe 6 hours, but that was all time split between playing and talking to people online so I'm not sure how accurate it is.

Regarding 2dx vs shmups, it's really difficult to compare difficulty as they're so drastically different. I'm pretty sure I passed my first 12 in less time than it took me to get my first 1CC, but it took me much longer before I could consistently AAA songs. 2dx doesn''t really require any sort of abstract learning, what you have to do is all very direct. Depending on how you learn you may need to change your playstyle or adjust past a certain level, but for the most part you just keep playing and if you're serious about it you get better. I've always told people learning that you'll be as good as you sincerely want to be.

EDIT: OK now that I think about it, I'm sure it actually took me a LOT longer to get my first 12. I was failing to account for the fact that I played 2dx A LOT MORE when I started out. I was able to progress fairly quickly out of the gate because I was completely obsessed with the game. I got my controller and games back in 2003-4 and for months playing was the only thing I would do in my free time. I passed my first 9 in a couple weeks and just kept pushing myself, always playing a bit above what I was capable of. So yeah, maybe it took more days to get my first 1CC, but it probably didn't take more hours of playtime. Then again maybe I'm remembering wrong and it took more days too.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think I'll just go back to playing.

[Bananamatic]

I think I'll just go back to playing.

Should've done this 3 threads ago

[DrTrouserPlank]

I still need to know this.

Why does the chain die in the middle of a hyper where I'm a the very least canceling a massive stream of bullets and almost certainly killing enemies as well?

Dies every single time for no reason.

[dunpeal2064]

I'm not sure, but I think the color of the number when it breaks indicates what is happening?

I'm not sure what each color means, but I'm sure someone could tell you.

[Bananamatic]

getting hit and autobombing?
hyper rank being too high and bullets not cancelling themselves fast enough?

[mesh control]

I still need to know this.

Why does the chain die in the middle of a hyper where I'm a the very least canceling a massive stream of bullets and almost certainly killing enemies as well?

Dies every single time for no reason.

You don't seriously mean everytime...

If your hyper rank is up, sometimes your bullet cancelling won't add enough to time to the GP meter in the top left. That may be why you're dropping the chain. You'll need to destroy a popcorn enemy or two, to add to the GP meter. With DFK you can't just hold the fire button either, you need to leave some enemies alive to keep the chain rolling. If a wave of popcorn enemies comes on screen tap C to leave them alive.


Also, when chaining outside of hyper mode, hitting enemies that are OFF SCREEN with the laser will hold your chain. This applies to section of stage 2 after the midboss and stage 5 after the midboss

(I've only practiced st.1, 2 & 5. Sapz probably has some more knowledge to drop)

[DrTrouserPlank]

.. and why does the counter go pink and count backwards sometimes and other times it just drops without counting back?

[mesh control]

It depends on the circumstances. If it's rolling back on a boss, it's probably because you're not lasering it. The hit count is so high it won't completely drop (I'm not sure how high the hit count needs to be to not completely drop). Third Strike uses the roll back to milk the st.4 boss in that video.

If it just drops it's probably because the GP meter was depleted. Popcorn Enemies don't add a lot to the meter, but larger enemies add a bit more. Cancelling bullets in boost mode adds a whole bunch, usually.

There is a bit of leniency with chaining in boss fights and hyper's start/end. If you watch the dumb video I made, after the 1st mid boss I wait for the hyper to end and the chain still holds.
I do that because there are popcorn enemies on the following bridge and the multiplier does not take effect unless you are: 1. Out of hyper mode 2. the hyper guage is full. The GP meter has a sliver left because of the hyper stall, once it ends I press the C button to destroy all the little tanks on the bridge. sadface for them for me

DFK ST @ Cave STG

Use the tools that you're provided. It seems like you're watching replays with a chip on shoulder. A "Oh, I can't do that" attitude. If I can't do something identically in a replay, I find someway I CAN do it consistently.

edit: DFK is one of the most unintuitive games I've ever played.

[TheSoundofRed]

What's the point? Replays are nice to watch for the fantasy play they showcase but their usefulness is close to zero because you learn almost nothing from them. The paths are unrepeatable unless you've spent the thousands of hours of trial and error working them out and committing them to memory yourself.

I'm dumbfounded at this. Like mouth agape, can't think of anything to say, seriously fucking brain-meltingly retarded.

How do you learn anything then, if not by explanation or demonstration?

[Sapz]

Regarding chaining in DFK:

If you're outside of a hyper, without a full hyper meter, your chain will drop slowly if the gauge is emptied.
If you're outside of a hyper with a hyper ready to go, your chain will entirely vanish if the gauge is emptied - this is in exchange for the chaining multiplier you gain in this state.

While in a hyper, you can gain hits from cancelling bullets, but the chaining gauge is unaffected by the actual bullet cancels themselves; the gauge is refilled by collecting stars that spawn from cancelled bullets. Since there's a delay between cancelling bullets and collecting their stars, it's possible to gain hits only to have the chain break before you can grab the star items.

I'm not going to explain how scoring works from the ground up because people have already done that a billion times in various threads and people are probably bored of it by this point.