The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Obscura]

I thought complaining about cancel-em-ups was one of the most popular hobbies around here?

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think this one's my favorite.

I'd say this is my problem with it.

The better you play the easier it becomes in the sense that the better you play, the more bullets you cancel.

I always find games where you have an option other than dodging difficult to play, because that other option is almost required to navigate the game rather than something that just makes it easier for you. With that in mind the game almost becomes a puzzle where you have to work out how to use that "power" to avoid bullets rather than just dodge them.

I stand by that as well. When a game necessarily requires you to use bullet canceling (which is the primary means of scoring) to actually progress through patterns, someone who designed the game fucked up. In doing this is requires that you are both aware that bullet canceling is mandatory and, and have played the game to such a ridiculous extent that you've got a plan mapped out to deal with that. Given that these games are designed to sit in smoke filled arcades and send you home with no loose change one could consider that a good bit of design.

I suspect that the Japanese mentality from players is that this is both acceptable and even desirable. Clearly there are players over there who will play these games like a full time job; 8-10 hours a day not being uncommon. There are obviously people here who do the same, but in designing your game that way you are aiming for the smallest portion of the shmup playing community imaginable.

I thought complaining about cancel-em-ups was one of the most popular hobbies around here?

It is, of course no one is going to agree when I complain about it though. People's opinions here are shaped more by who is making the argument rather than its actual content.

[TLB]

In case you were curious, it's not my favorite because of your explicit complaint :)

[O. Van Bruce]

Everytime... lol... everytime DTP starts whining about something there will be allways an answer to that.

But lol, his answers are so predictable that in the end, there is only one thing that comes to my head:

Just quit playing shmups then...

you are the only person I know which seems to not only suck at shmups but also wants to stay like that forever...

[DrTrouserPlank]

I gave AKS a run, but I can barely even remember how it works. Either way it's like I've never even played it before which is the problem really. If you don't play at least an hour a day you just completely lose all progress you made. Stopping and coming back simply isn't an option.

I had 66M on it and I'm not going to beat that because I can't remember where I powered up to get it. Scoring better essentially comes down to memorising a route devised by someone else and it's completely separate to actually making progress through the game (which will score you nothing whatsoever). Same problem as Espgaluda 2.

Maybe one day someone will make a game where you score more points the more you kill and the further you get rather than counter-intuitive mechanics that need researching before you can even attempt them. God knows how people managed in arcades.

[Deca]

I know for a fact that you own a copy of Under Defeat.

[Hagane]

If you used all the time you waste writing these pointless posts in playing and researching the games you would probably be better than sikraiken already.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I know for a fact that you own a copy of Under Defeat.

Yeah that game does vaguely follow those rules (with the exception of option deployment) but I've had to give that game up. Not because I don't like it or agree with the scoring but because I'm not going to score better until I clear it, and we know that's not going to happen. If you can clear all the levels but get nowhere near to clearing it in a run, then you're wasting your time as far as I'm concerned because there's nothing you can do to change it.

I'm not having a good day.

I really don't like going back to a game I've played and it feeling completely new and unfamiliar, even less so when the scoring is a memory game all of it's own separate from the game itself.

[Sapz]

Try out Strikers 1999 in MAME - I think it fits the bill nicely. Make sure to use the secret ship (details found in Strategy section).

Actually, any Psikyo game would work aside from perhaps Dragon Blaze, but this one is my favourite. :V

[Deca]

RNG incoming, you said the magic words

[dunpeal2064]

RNG incoming, you said the magic words

Yep, and even more help will fall on deaf ears.

[Hagane]

Psikyo games have no scoring!

[Deca]

How do you feel about Caravan games DTP?

You seem to enjoy scoring on some level. They may not offer the most intuitive scoring but it is in no way tied to survival like you complained about. Score attacking effectively presents you with more opportunities to score and nothing else, and clearing is very easy. Just based on what's been said here it seems like you could potentially enjoy them.

[RNGmaster]

Actually, any Psikyo game would work aside from perhaps Dragon Blaze, but this one is my favourite. :V

I would actually pay to watch DTP livestream Dragon Blaze with commentary. I'm actually hesitant to recomend it to him, though (holy shit how's that for a change) because I know he'd find some way to complain about it and that idea makes me very sad.

[DrTrouserPlank]

How do you feel about Caravan games DTP?

You seem to enjoy scoring on some level. They may not offer the most intuitive scoring but it is in no way tied to survival like you complained about. Score attacking effectively presents you with more opportunities to score and nothing else, and clearing is very easy. Just based on what's been said here it seems like you could potentially enjoy them.

I don't know what they are.

The complaints I've made about scoring are to do with games whose scoring is almost completely separate to the gameplay. Where a top score could be 10 to 20 times bigger than a capable clearing score. I just think that's stupid because it renders all scores made by decent players managing to clear the game as insignificant.

I'm just going to leave it all alone for now. Too pissed off to even think about it tonight.

Definitely makes you wonder if it's possible to have fun actually clearing these games, or whether you can only really enjoy it once you've sunk a lifetime into it and worked out how to beat the game and spent months working out how to put together a scoring run. I enjoy scoring, but not when the difference between clearing and scoring is so massive as it is in some games.

Actually, any Psikyo game would work aside from perhaps Dragon Blaze, but this one is my favourite. :V

I would actually pay to watch DTP livestream Dragon Blaze with commentary.

Pay-per-view is something I will look into, although I suspect the stream would be abruptly cut short after I insta-quit the game halfway through a run (as I often do)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I don't know what [caravan games] are.

Caravan Mode: “Umbrella” term which can be used to denote both Score Attack and Time Attack modes. Originates from a group of Compile-developed shooters (Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier, among others) which both included such modes as extras alongside the “regular” games and released them alone, in limited quantities, as “Caravan” editions.

Basically, your main focus is on grabbing a high score in a limited time or such. Dangun Feveron's time attack mode is a lot of fun.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I found it amusing reading a press release for Sine Mora, it was along the lines of "Sine Mora loves it's players and wants to encourage them to succeed". Now leaving our feelings about Sine Mora aside for one second I have to say that the ethos of nurturing and encouraging players isn't something you see in Shmups. In fact it is the exact opposite. Most games want to make you fail and fail again until you give up. Indeed it is a feat of sheer belligerence if you are able to keep playing long enough to see the credits roll. It's not a nice genre of games to play frankly. Unless you subscribe to some magical formula, or manage to luck out and make some progress that spurs you to continue it seems to be mostly disappointment and frustration with no avenue for improvement or progress.

Now that I've put that thought out there, which Game am I going to hate playing the least; DFK 1.5 or DFK black? I think they are both ridiculo-difficult. Black seems harder.

[Sapz]

Have you tried any Psikyo stuff yet? I really think they're what you're after, given most of the score is based around survival progress. It's rare you see someone with a higher score who didn't reach a further stage compared to you.

[dunpeal2064]

Black Label only has one loop, so there is less room for mistake maybe? There are plenty of DFK pros here that will give you all the pros and cons.

Shit, I'll start playing it with you, I have no idea how the game really works, been sitting on my shelf for too long.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Black Label only has one loop, so there is less room for mistake maybe? There are plenty of DFK pros here that will give you all the pros and cons.

Shit, I'll start playing it with you, I have no idea how the game really works, been sitting on my shelf for too long.

I don't know. The necessary reading and three hour exam required to be allowed to play seems pretty difficult.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... atsu+black

Just read that. It's like a fucking owners' manual for operating a particle accelerator.

1.5 or black I don't give a shit though I'll play either. I know pretty much nothing about either of them.

[dunpeal2064]

I actually found that pretty straightforward, and read it twice in like ten minutes.

Is there a certain part that is confusing?

[mesh control]

Black Label only has one loop, so there is less room for mistake maybe? There are plenty of DFK pros here that will give you all the pros and cons.

Shit, I'll start playing it with you, I have no idea how the game really works, been sitting on my shelf for too long.

I don't know. The necessary reading and three hour exam required to be allowed to play seems pretty difficult.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... atsu+black

Just read that. It's like a fucking owners' manual for operating a particle accelerator.

1.5 or black I don't give a shit though I'll play either. I know pretty much nothing about either of them.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I'll give it a proper read tomorrow when I can think about it more. Whilst I'd like to have an idea of what's going on I think the majority of it will be irrelevant/will just happen as I play with little influence from me.

Packing up for tonight anyway. More fun to come tomorrow.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Just read that. It's like a fucking owners' manual for operating a particle accelerator.

Or you could just play the game and practise. But god help you, that'd be like... like... having to rub your belly and pat your head at the same time!

[dunpeal2064]

Lol Mesh.

I was just watching that. Fuckin epic

[Marc]

What happened to Psikyo and Raizing anyways, are either still active, if not who owns their stuff?

[RNGmaster]

What happened to Psikyo and Raizing anyways, are either still active, if not who owns their stuff?

Raizing now goes by 8ing and still makes a licensed Bleach fighter occasionally. Psikyo dissolved in about the middle of the 2000s and some of the lead programmers were absorbed into other arcade companies.

I recall a kinda funny post (shmupper humor ahoy) where someone said that the Psikyo programmers fled to the mountains of Cambodia and started new lives after people kept saying that their games were all the same.

[Marc]

So the rights are all to fuck and no chance of any rereleases then.

[Hagane]

There was a company called X-Nauts which got Psikyo's rights after it died. Shin Nakamura wasn't with them though, so the games they made were awful. Then X-Nauts also died in a couple of years. Dunno who has the rights for their stuff right now.

[Deca]

Hey dfk1.5 is my current fling, let's all be dfk buddies.