Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[rancid3000]

randomized powerups - boo
randomized boss patterns (i think?) - boo
complete peashooter weapons - boo
the entire powerup system - boo
ill-defined hitbox - boo
gameplay obscured by foreground terrain and textboxes - boo
analog stick movement - boo
all the hazard areas where the walls are completely ill-defined - boo
hazard areas that also have wind mechanics - boo
microscopic bullets - boo
bullets patterns that curve in midair - boo
"heatseaker" bullets - boo

Fixing most of these would not make the game less appealing to mainstream audiences at all. Maybe they just didn't have enough time to polish it in these areas, and focused entirely on making it look shinier before release.

Hopefully it gets patched.

I kinda like the curving bullets and crazy patterns. Keeps things interesting but it still needs better controls. The heatseaker missiles don't bother me but I wish they were just a little more visible.

Changing most of these shouldn't change the game too much or make it less appealing.

[Estebang]

And thus Reiker's Shmupsforum posting career came to an end.

[Kiken]

I wonder if we'll ever see Reiker again and if so what he has to say for himself. Feels like he only came here to drum up interest and make us feel somewhat invested in the game or something with no intention whatsoever of taking any of our serious critiques or recommendations into consideration during development.

You will see me, of course. Right now I'm extremely tired and sleepy, sorry - we had a launch event going on.

As said earlier, this game was not made exclusively for the hardcore community. Taking and implementing some of your suggestions here would result in a different game. A game, I'm convinced, which is less attractive to the mainstream.

The development team was prepared that our game will be considered "blasphemy" here, yes. What we hope is, however, that the "outside world" will like it. That other companies will follow, experiment and the general public and media will be more interested in this genre.

We will do what we can to fix your major issues with the game in the following months. However, the game itself will remain what it is: something different.

Please accept my apologies, if you feel betrayed.

The short form of this is "we knew you guys would hate it but didn't care to let you know until after you bought it."

Except that Reiker pretty much said from his first post forward that this game was mostly targeted at the more mainstream market. And I don't think that any of us feel betrayed (well, maybe one or two folks think that), most of what has been posted here is disappointment.

When an enemy explodes the bullets follow a straight vector path as if it were a barycenter, so instead of simply moving in a straight line themselves, they twirl around the line of motion (as if they're orbiting it). As a result, the bullets spin rapidly in tight circles as they spread outwards.

That doesn't sound like a barycenter, but an epicycle. A barycenter would have another (in this case, non-existent) object orbiting the bullet as well (to some degree). To be sure if you set the mass of the bullet to nearly 0 (relatively), it will be essentially the same thing, but...

Epicycle it is then, I stand corrected.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

imo the muted bullets is made so much harder with the crazy trajectories of the some of the bullet patterns and the fact you have a pea shooter with such a narrow angle of attack, so im having to both concentrate on shooting targets and dodging the bullets. Ad no trouble with the bullets in story mode it was insane where I couldnt keep up

I think with regards to randomisation of a competitive game is that it makes a big difference in scale. For example a game with 100 rolls of the dice is a lot different to one dice roll. Also the first few rolls of a dice is more important than later rolls. I think that is a problem in with the power up system. You are so underpowered at the start that a couple of lucky power ups is really important.

Playing the insane mode demo I found myself just spamming my subweapon and picking up the drops as soon as I began. If the other ships are as under powered in a virgin state, maybe increasing the firepower at the start might be a good idea, and or increasing the rate red orbs drop when you have a pea shooter.

Like I said im only going off the demo here so im not 100% sure if its needed.


Guys give the chap time to respond before rippin him a new arsehole, launch day has just past and the guyis in bed, same place I should be

[renardqueenston]

R-Type 1945 Final: Wobbly Bullets

[rancid3000]

I really do hope this game does well and accomplishes the goal of the developers. As "experts" I think it's hard for us to get caught up on the little things and not see how good something really can be.

I know myself and a few others have also only commented on the trial version which isn't exactly right. I apologize for that. When I have some extra cash lying around I think I will wind up buying this. It's just not a priority right now.

[renardqueenston]

really really wobbly

[wariomona]

randomized powerups - boo
randomized boss patterns (i think?) - boo
complete peashooter weapons - boo
the entire powerup system - boo
ill-defined hitbox - boo
gameplay obscured by foreground terrain and textboxes - boo
analog stick movement - boo
all the hazard areas where the walls are completely ill-defined - boo
hazard areas that also have wind mechanics - boo
microscopic bullets - boo
bullets patterns that curve in midair - boo
"heatseaker" bullets - boo

Why are most people's complaints essentially boiling down to "this isn't cave?"
The only thing you've listed that is truly a problem is randomized powerups. Everything else takes normal people like 10 seconds to get used to.
I haven't had problems with the hitbox, the game shows where it is before you start.
Everyone hating analogue controls is their own fault, not the games', so patching that would be stupid.

The more I play this game the more I like it. It has old-school hori memorizer feel to it so it will get better once you know not to stand right in front of a giant laser.
Most of its elements are taken from other games but the game still feels unique to me. But clearly everyone here can't stand something that goes against what they're used to...

[Illyrian]

randomized powerups - boo
randomized boss patterns (i think?) - boo
complete peashooter weapons - boo
the entire powerup system - boo
ill-defined hitbox - boo
gameplay obscured by foreground terrain and textboxes - boo
analog stick movement - boo
all the hazard areas where the walls are completely ill-defined - boo
hazard areas that also have wind mechanics - boo
microscopic bullets - boo
bullets patterns that curve in midair - boo
"heatseaker" bullets - boo

Why are most people's complaints essentially boiling down to "this isn't cave?"
The only thing you've listed that is truly a problem is randomized powerups. Everything else takes normal people like 10 seconds to get used to.
I haven't had problems with the hitbox, the game shows where it is before you start.
Everyone hating analogue controls is their own fault, not the games', so patching that would be stupid.

The more I play this game the more I like it. It has old-school hori memorizer feel to it so it will get better once you know not to stand right in front of a giant laser.
Most of its elements are taken from other games but the game still feels unique to me. But clearly everyone here can't stand something that goes against what they're used to...

Lol you just "straw-manned" the entire thread you idiot. I don't think anyone has mentioned CAVE in the last few pages at all.

Calm down, take your daily dose of anti-psychotics and try posting again.

Power ups floating off the screen, not being able to remap controls and body slam attacks from bosses with almost no warning are all bad design choices, irrelevant of who is making the game.

[BPzeBanshee]

This game plays terribly. Also, I can't see shit (as I predicted) because of the aspect ratio which I warned people well before this came out that it was worse than 16:9 - even on a HD flatscreen.

The trials are locked between a piss-easy story mode and a beyond-bullshit "arcade mode", it doesn't really explain the differences in the ships of the modes used very well (I had to squint at the top-left corner to realise the pilot was a different furry from the one in the last play and from there deduce I was using a different ship with different 'secondary shots'), and frankly didn't really convince me that I should waste 1200 MS points on it. Going by everyone who's actually bought this the trial actually doesn't represent fully the 'preview of the actual game' either - not that it gets much better from there anyway. I'll pass this one too, and go and play something that's not murder on my eyes.

[Cuilan]

Played through the trial.

Overall, I'd say it's just ok. Story, graphics, and music are nice. It's a real shame they didn't put just as much effort into the gameplay. This would have turned out to be a great shooter if they had.

Time-is-life system is poorly implemented (WispLisp did it better)
Power-up system is poorly implemented (Otomedius did it better)
Power-down system is poorly implemented (Otomedius and Strikers series did it better)
Slowdown system is poorly implemented (Espgaluda series did it better)
Main shot starts off way too weak (how about reducing the number of weapon levels?)
Wind effects are annoying
Some of the enemy projectiles are too small/too hard to see
Hitbox is a bit too large, but it's tolerable
Dislike the lack of restart option in arcade mode unless you use up all of your continues

I think there's a decent foundation to work from here. I really hope the devs improve the game via patches. As it is now, I won't be buying it, certainly not at the current asking price. I'd consider picking it up once the issues are addressed and/or it's on one of XBL's weekly sales.

And the people saying this game is better than Trouble Witches Neo are insane. Well...ok, I can understand if you prefer the music/aesthetics/story of Sine Mora, but in terms of gameplay? Sorry, but no.

[Marc]

Don't want to jump on the hate wagon so soon, so for now all I will say is that it's a totally idiotic descision to lock the trial to two difficulties, neither or which I would be playing on the full game. At 800 points, it may not have been an issue. At 1200 I'm suddenly wavering, specially when I can order RFA or Galuda 2 for not much more.

[Alfred]

Go to settings. Enemy HP indicator (2D) Off. Much better i think.

Almost 2000 players on the story leaderboard.

[ZenErik]

People said this is better than Trouble Witches? I would have a hard time believing that, but I will download the trial today.

At the very least, I hope this game gives the genre some good exposure. The good reviews should definitely help. Could cause some people to really get into shmups and eventually start looking into games like Battle Garegga, DOJ, etc. One can dream.

[Kollision]

being different from the rest of the genre is good
why stick to the same mold always?

even with all the criticism from this thread (some of them pretty annoying to say the least) and regardless of how I'll like it, I salute the developer for swimming against the tide of people who'll always want similar game structure/aspects over and over

[Udderdude]

even with all the criticism from this thread (some of them pretty annoying to say the least) and regardless of how I'll like it, I salute the developer for swimming against the tide of people who'll always want similar game structure/aspects over and over

The problem here is that experimenting and changing with core genre rules is not something typically left to beginners. And seeing as it is their first shmup, it's almost predictable that any "big changes" they make to the genre standards aren't going to be the best ideas.

In addition, a lot of the critisisms are not really about game structure changes at all. They're the usual beginner's shmup issues like bullet visibility and hard to see walls, no remappable controls, randomness, etc.

Understanding and having a deep respect for the genre and the games in it is one thing. Making a new game based on that is a whole different thing. Trust me, I've been down that road myself.

Game sure has a pretty coat of paint, though. I'll give it that. Looks phenominal. I'm content to just watch Youtube replays of it, I get all the best parts (shiny visuals) without having to pay or play it! :p

[DrTrouserPlank]

People said this is better than Trouble Witches? I would have a hard time believing that, but I will download the trial today.

At the very least, I hope this game gives the genre some good exposure. The good reviews should definitely help. Could cause some people to really get into shmups and eventually start looking into games like Battle Garegga, DOJ, etc. One can dream.

It's not better than trouble witches, certainly not for the majority of people here at least because trouble witches more closely resembles what the"hardcorer" crowd want from a shmup.

Sine Mora is definitely more "mainstream friendly".

[ZenErik]

Well Trouble Witches has a story mode too. But obviously the cutesy designs will be off putting for some. As an anime fan, I love them. And all my female friends love them too.

[StarCreator]

Except that Reiker pretty much said from his first post forward that this game was mostly targeted at the more mainstream market. And I don't think that any of us feel betrayed (well, maybe one or two folks think that), most of what has been posted here is disappointment.

My big issue with this is, he can say he's targeting some mythical mainstream demographic all he wants, but where is the market research? How do they know the changes they are making to gameplay mechanics will actually attract new players? Did they do any surveys? Focus testing? Because they're certainly going out of their way to ignore years of precedent, for reasons I find impossible to justify.

I posted more thoughts on the matter here. But I think Udderdude hit it on the nose - experimentation aimed at the target audience involves both having a target audience AND knowing what they want, not just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it'll stick.

[MauJustice]

I fail to see how any of the basic changes we are suggesting would affect the Casual audience in the slightest. If anything they would appreciate the changes as much as we would (power up issues, cheap deaths etc...)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

This is the final boss battle. I lost track of how many times he got hit; he still had 30 seconds or so by the time he cleared it. Someone please tell me how the hell you can get hit constantly and still have time extend items popping up everywhere? I mean, honestly, what's the point of the time then (edit: other than to give you a huge, and decidedly infinite source of lives in story mode when the game feels like it)?

[Udderdude]

This is the final boss battle. I lost track of how many times he got hit; he still had 30 seconds or so by the time he cleared it. Someone please tell me how the hell you can get hit constantly and still have time extend items popping up everywhere? I mean, honestly, what's the point of the time then?

I guess that's story/normal mode for you. Easy enough for anyone.

I really had a tough time seeing any of the spreads the boss was doing. They were almost invisible. I hope that's just because of the Youtube fudge factor, but judging from comments made here, it might not be :/

Why's it take 4 1/2 minutes to kill? Is that the default weapon power or something? And why isn't the background scrolling or rotating or doing something cool? Why's it so damn bright?

Boss's patterns looked like nothing to write home about.

Oh well.

[Zaarock]

This is the final boss battle. I lost track of how many times he got hit; he still had 30 seconds or so by the time he cleared it. Someone please tell me how the hell you can get hit constantly and still have time extend items popping up everywhere? I mean, honestly, what's the point of the time then (edit: other than to give you a huge, and decidedly infinite source of lives in story mode when the game feels like it)?

Looks like he is playing on the easiest difficulty. I guess they wanted the last boss to be easy for some reason, but you can probably get a lot of points by having a lot of time left when the boss dies (time remaining turns into points, exponentially I think)

I really had a tough time seeing any of the spreads the boss was doing. They were almost invisible. I hope that's just because of the Youtube fudge factor, but judging from comments made here, it might not be :/

Why's it take 4 1/2 minutes to kill?

Nah, they're visible. its just mostly the missile projectiles which are hard to see ingame, not the bullets. The tiny sized bullet sprite is pointless but they're not that hard to see.

it takes so long because he has 3 shot power out of 10 and the boss weakpoints are hard to hit.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I really had a tough time seeing any of the spreads the boss was doing. They were almost invisible. I hope that's just because of the Youtube fudge factor, but judging from comments made here, it might not be :/

Ditto. It looks like they have both coloured outline with white center and coloured outline with black center shots in the game, and the black center ones are what they were using. Ideally, bigger shots with only a central white portion as the actual hitbox would have probably worked better than tiny bullets you basically have to sit next to the screen to see.

Why's it take 4 1/2 minutes to kill? Is that the default weapon power or something? And why isn't the background scrolling or rotating or doing something cool? Why's it so damn bright?

Red boxes at the top indicate how what power level for the main weapon you're at. Looks like the most he reaches in that fight is 5 boxes.

[MauJustice]

I lost track of how many times he got hit

I counted 27, give or take a few. Plus he was saved by his shield twice.

His friends are playing MW3, looks like DR's target audience.

[Udderdude]

And after all that, he calls it "an awesome classic style sidescrolling shoot 'em up".

I guess spending 4 1/2 minutes flailing around against a boss that seems more disinterested in attacking (because the player never freakin dies) than anything else is entertaining to him. Likely because he's never played another shmup in his life.

Sine Mora is the new Tyrian. >_>

[MauJustice]

From the video description

"Sine Mora final / last stage boss battle Ophan ending gameplay and "strategy" on a top60 leaderboards game."

If anyone wants to know how to get hit 30 times by the final boss, this guy has a strategy video up for it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sine Mora is the new Tyrian. >_>

Tyrian at least had a fun weapon combination/upgrade thing going for it, even if it had inexcusable inertia issues (I didn't think the shield mechanic was all that bad, although some enemy shots did inexplicably little whereas I remember certain harmless-looking yellow balls fired by a boss eating up 1/2 your health in one hit).

[AntiFritz]

People said this is better than Trouble Witches? I would have a hard time believing that, but I will download the trial today.

At the very least, I hope this game gives the genre some good exposure. The good reviews should definitely help. Could cause some people to really get into shmups and eventually start looking into games like Battle Garegga, DOJ, etc. One can dream.

It's not better than trouble witches, certainly not for the majority of people here at least because trouble witches more closely resembles what the"hardcorer" crowd want from a shmup.

Sine Mora is definitely more "mainstream friendly".

Wasn't trouble witches originally at the arcades though?

[Kiken]

This is the final boss battle. I lost track of how many times he got hit; he still had 30 seconds or so by the time he cleared it. Someone please tell me how the hell you can get hit constantly and still have time extend items popping up everywhere? I mean, honestly, what's the point of the time then (edit: other than to give you a huge, and decidedly infinite source of lives in story mode when the game feels like it)?

By the way.. a note about the final pattern that begins at 3:41... the upper left corner says 'hi'.

Wasn't trouble witches originally at the arcades though?

It started as a PC doujin, which then went 'legit' with an arcade release.