Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[E. Randy Dupre]

The story mode is confusing as all hell. Seriously, what's supposed to be going on? It doesn't help that it seems to be non-linear as well as having events in different levels actually happening concurrently. It's a mess. I don't mind non-linear naraive - actually, I kind of love it, when it's done well - but there's already enough going on in this game for me to try and get my head around without further muddying the waters.

In terms of gameplay: hmm. It's going to take a shitload of getting used to, but I get the feeling that familiarity will make it a lot more enjoyable, if I can be bothered sticking with it. What I don't imagine I'll ever find enjoyable are some of the spammy enemy attacks, which feel unfair - I doubt that they actually are, but I do think that if you're going to have the amount (and nature) of stuff flying towards the player that this game sometimes throws out, you probably shouldn't have gone with a graphical style that, while admittedly gorgeous, sacrifices precision in favour of lushness.

I agree with posters above in that there are probably too many new things thrown together in this recipe. Whoever said that Soldner-X was the better game is off their tits, though. Like I say, I can see the potential here. The game's biggest problem is that it's trying to reinvent a lot of underlying systems while also providing a significant level of challenge, so if you're coming to it with expectations from other games in the genre, it's almost guaranteed to feel wrong.

Wrt the volume level on the music, even when you can hear it, it's still pretty muted. It just seems to be the rather morbid style, more than anything else.

[psoslayer]

Whoever said that Soldner-X was the better game is off their tits, though.

Try SX2. SX1 was really bad.

[E. Randy Dupre]

I have done. I still think this is far more enjoyable.

[bcass]

I have a hard time taking any criticism seriously that jumps straight to an assumption of ignorance. I have no superiority complex about where I live and I think that all sorts of awesome stuff comes out of europe.

Stating that Europeans only make decent driving and flight sims doesn't exactly make you sound particularly open-minded. Given the incredibly rich history Europe has in gaming culture (dating back to the home computer revolution in the late 70s) one can only assume ignorance on your part.

if you look at video game output from europe as a whole I don't think anyone can objectively deny that they have far and away a horrible track record for most non-sim genres.

Total, total nonsense. There are countless original European games, especially from the 80s/90s that you've probably never heard of and have never played games like anywhere, probably made for systems you've never heard of either. I'll admit that these days most of the best European output is from the indie scene now that most of our best studios were bought out by American studios and subsequently driven into the ground (Rare, Lionhead, to name just two).

I find it hard to believe that anyone finds the term EUROshmup endearing in a less than ironic fashion.

Like I said, I definitely wasn't sticking up for all those crappy Euroshmups. Also, how can you feel betrayed by the makers of this new game? You haven't even bought it yet have you?

[psoslayer]

If there's a bad shmup from Japan, it's just a bad shmup. If a bad shmup is from Europe it's a Euroshmup and will spawn haters to blame every game made in Europe.

[Illyrian]

As someone who is european (living in London) I can honestly say that shmup wise, we aren't worth shit.

All of the great game franchises you find these days come from Japan or America, the most that big computer game companies in Europe get is to work on ports/sequels.

We are a distinct 3rd in terms of game development. I'm not including indie/low budget stuff in this statement for the record, just big box stuff. I don't exactly know what Sine Mora would be classified as, but it's not a euroshmup, and it's definitely not a "Japanese" shmup.

[Deca]

I was going to say something about your first post coming off as a self serving ego trip but the second one did it for me.

Please feel free to share any actual examples. I can in no way deny that once upon a time fantastic games came from every corner of the world with some degree of consistancy, but those days are long past. My post was intended to reflect the modern gaming industry. Also I should have said European Companies rather than just Europeans.

[bcass]

As someone who is european (living in London) I can honestly say that shmup wise, we aren't worth shit.

I think the stuff that Jeff Minter is doing (when he does make shooting games) are every bit as good (if not better) than anything the Japanese have ever made. He is a singular anomaly though.

All of the great game franchises you find these days come from Japan or America, the most that big computer game companies in Europe get is to work on ports/sequels.

This is only a fairly recent phenomenon though. Not that long ago (before Microsoft swallowed them up) Rare were making some of the best games out there. There's a very strong indie scene here now though, and that's where I reckon the future of European development will come from, not what little remains of the old guard.

I probably sound very defensive, and in a way I am because I was around in the 80s/90s when bedroom coders and small outfits were making consistently original games (most of which most non-Europeans are even remotely aware of). This was a distinctly European movement. We could learn a lot from that old ethos given how unbelievably generic 99.99% of games are these days.

[Illyrian]

As someone who is european (living in London) I can honestly say that shmup wise, we aren't worth shit.

I think the stuff that Jeff Minter is doing (when he does make shooting games) are every bit as good (if not better) than anything the Japanese have ever made. He is a singular anomaly though.

All of the great game franchises you find these days come from Japan or America, the most that big computer game companies in Europe get is to work on ports/sequels.

This is only a fairly recent phenomenon though. Not that long ago (before Microsoft swallowed them up) Rare were making some of the best games out there. There's a very strong indie scene here now though, and that's where I reckon the future of European development will come from, not what little remains of the old guard.

I probably sound very defensive, and in a way I am because I was around in the 80s/90s when bedroom coders and small outfits were making consistently original games (most of which most non-Europeans are even remotely aware of). This was a distinctly European movement. We could learn a lot from that old ethos given how unbelievably generic 99.99% of games are these days.

For example Rare's classic Donkey Kong Country games are based on the Donkey Kong franchise, which was made in Japan. Devil May Cry/Final Fantasy/Grand Theft Auto any others you want to really look at are all from Japan/USA.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Well done. GTA is a British game series.

[psoslayer]

Jeff Minter Fanboy Vs Eurohater

[bcass]

I was going to say something about your first post coming off as a self serving ego trip but the second one did it for me.

Something tells me that you don't know what a "self serving ego trip" is. Because if you did, you wouldn't be misusing the phrase in the way you just did. If you want to learn more about the genesis of gaming from the European perspective, feel free to google away at your leisure.

[bcass]

Well done. GTA is a British game series.

True. Not a big fan here, but its mockery of American "culture" is absolutely delicious. Even more so when it flies past the top of their heads at considerable speed.

[Zaarock]

A piano fell on me in stage 2 while I was playing for score/1cc

[bcass]

For example Rare's classic Donkey Kong Country games are based on the Donkey Kong franchise, which was made in Japan. Devil May Cry/Final Fantasy/Grand Theft Auto any others you want to really look at are all from Japan/USA.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

[BuckoA51]

All of the great game franchises you find these days come from Japan or America, the most that big computer game companies in Europe get is to work on ports/sequels.

Rocksteady Studios - London UK - Batman Arkham Asylum/Arkham City
Codemasters - Warwickshire UK - Dirt 3, F1 2011 etc
Nadeo - Paris France - Trackmania 2, Shootmania
Playdead - Denmark - Limbo
Notch - Sweeden - Minecraft
Housemarque - Helsinki Finland - Super Stardust HD, Stardust Delta

Yeah, nothing good coming out of Europe at all

[RNGmaster]

Playdead - Denmark - Limbo

You have to remember that Limbo is one of those terrible evil artgames that ravished Estebang's mum when he was a wee lad.

[Danny]

Let's not forget Bizarre Creations who made awesome driving games and revived the twin stick shooter genre with Geometry Wars Retro Evolved.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Twin stick shooters existed before Geo Wars?

[Moniker]

Twin stick shooters existed before Geo Wars?

Robotron, Smash TV, etc. Although I was under the impression that they used four buttons for fire rather than a second arcade stick. In any case, same idea.

[Danny]

Twin stick shooters existed before Geo Wars?

Oh you!

My personal before GeoWars twin stick shooters are Black Widow and Robotron.

Back on topic this game seems kinda meh from the demo. I am going to wait till it either goes cheap on XBLA or on Steam when it finally lands there.

P.S: I assumed you where joking btw!

[Estebang]

I am going to wait till it either goes cheap on XBLA or on Steam when it finally lands there.

It won't be on Steam. Microsoft has exclusive rights.

Played the demo and had a similar reaction to Danny. It's solid, but beyond the stellar graphics, it just doesn't seem like it has much to offer that other modern horzies don't. I'll pick it up if it goes on sale, but not before, unless someone can really convince me otherwise.

[Reiker]

I wonder if we'll ever see Reiker again and if so what he has to say for himself. Feels like he only came here to drum up interest and make us feel somewhat invested in the game or something with no intention whatsoever of taking any of our serious critiques or recommendations into consideration during development.

You will see me, of course. Right now I'm extremely tired and sleepy, sorry - we had a launch event going on.

As said earlier, this game was not made exclusively for the hardcore community. Taking and implementing some of your suggestions here would result in a different game. A game, I'm convinced, which is less attractive to the mainstream.

The development team was prepared that our game will be considered "blasphemy" here, yes. What we hope is, however, that the "outside world" will like it. That other companies will follow, experiment and the general public and media will be more interested in this genre.

We will do what we can to fix your major issues with the game in the following months. However, the game itself will remain what it is: something different.

Please accept my apologies, if you feel betrayed.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

I'm shocked nobody mentioned the german dev Crytek.

/e
Oh, and let's not forget that Witcher was made in Poland and STALKER in the Ukraine.

When I think about it... does America actually make other games aside from HALO and COD?

[bVork]

Is it just me or are powerups completely random? I've been messing with the arcade mode in the trial, and sometimes I've gotten a very useful shield powerup really early on, while other times I have had nothing but weapon powerups or subweapon stock. Is this true for all the modes? If this is the case, then score attack is going to be completely and utterly broken, because somebody who gets lucky and has a pile of weapon powersups is going to do much better than somebody who ends up with a lot of subweapon ammunition (since you can't use that without destroying your multiplier).

[Alfred]

Hello Reiker, I like your game and i am really enjoying it. You guys have done your best and we the STG community are very thankful that DR made it. We hope more Devs make new shooting games.

[Zaarock]

I wonder if we'll ever see Reiker again and if so what he has to say for himself. Feels like he only came here to drum up interest and make us feel somewhat invested in the game or something with no intention whatsoever of taking any of our serious critiques or recommendations into consideration during development.

You will see me, of course. Right now I'm extremely tired and sleepy, sorry - we had a launch event going on.

As said earlier, this game was not made exclusively for the hardcore community. Taking and implementing some of your suggestions here would result in a different game. A game, I'm convinced, which is less attractive to the mainstream.

The development team was prepared that our game will be considered "blasphemy" here, yes. What we hope is, however, that the "outside world" will like it. That other companies will follow, experiment and the general public and media will be more interested in this genre.

We will do what we can to fix your major issues with the game in the following months. However, the game itself will remain what it is: something different.

Please accept my apologies, if you feel betrayed.

Thanks for posting here, I'm fine with what you're going for personally, nothing to feel betrayed for.

I've played the game a lot already today and I think there is one flaw that needs to be fixed at least, and I don't think changing it would make the game work differently but rather just be more polished:

I'm assuming the powerup item drops are completely random (apart from rank effects). I've found this makes runs in arcade mode vary far too much, far more so in score attack.. depending on how many weapon power ups you will get surviving or playing for score can be much harder and for the latter, impossible to beat scores where people were luckier. Of course the other items matter too but the shot power difference is really easy to notice.

The way that for example battle garegga handles items dropping from enemies is that every X number of enemies you kill will drop item A, while every Y:th enemy drops B and so on. It also mixes in some enemy types only dropping medals and stuff like that. A system like this would make the game more consistent/solid IMO and much more playable to the hardcore audience who want to take it seriously as something to 1cc or score on etc. (which would be a pointless task if it's luck based).

Related to that, I'd argue 10 shot power levels is too many.. something like 3-5 would be less huge of a number of items required and would make recovering from losing powerups easier, I don't see the benefit in making recovery hard. (actually, as it is.. people are suiciding if they lose their powerups just to regain them lol) Wouldn't it be easier to test the game with just a few player damage levels in mind anyway? but yeah, that would be a bigger change to the game mechanics, not a "flaw" I guess.

Staying at rank A gives you huge amounts of score, too much I think. Basically over 50% of all high scores on the leaderboard consists of this (easily achieved by just holding shot)

Oh yeah, and my least favorite part of the game: going through the lasers inside of the rubble in stage 3. It was fun once in story mode but.. it's a one time gimmick that shouldn't make or break a playthrough. I won't expect you guys to take it out of arcade mode but eh, might as well put it out there.


Also,

A piano fell on me in stage 2 while I was playing for score/1cc

Not cool, guys

[nobody]

Overall I like the game. The presentation is top notch. But I hate hate hate how bullshitty some of the patterns are. I'm normally fine with tracking patterns, but there are so many ways to trap yourself on every boss. Plus the hitbox is so chubby. The time manipulation doesn't even feel like a feature anymore, just an escape method to get out of bad design decisions. And the random powerup drops take way too much out of the player's hand. The same powerups should come from the same ship every time, or from the last ship killed in a wave, or at least provided in a way that the player knows/understands how to acquire them. Another big problem with this game is that snowballing power is necessary, like in gradius, but when you get hit you're pretty much guaranteed to 1.) not get your powerups back and 2.) fail the level, because you lack the power to kill the enemies/boss in time. The game may as well kill you when you get hit instead of wasting your time. The worst part is that the time-extension mechanic becomes meaningless when you need to snowball power-ups. If I'm getting powerups I'm killing waves, I'm not worried about the time at all. If I lose my power-ups I can't kill anything in time so I lose, and the time mechanic once again becomes meaningless. The time-extension would make more sense if your ship had a set amount of damage/utility like in Giga Wing or Einhander, but you need to power up your ship in Sine Mora to have a chance.

When I get my power-ups, and I'm using subweapons, and I'm chaining medals, and I'm slowing time/reflecting bullets, I'm having fun. But this game is such a mess of contradictory mechanics that it's hard to get to that point.

[Special World]

I'm not the biggest fan of the game ATM (maybe that'll change as I play more of it), but it's crazy arrogant to expect the devs to change it up because forum-goers said so.

Anyways, congrats on getting your game out, Reiker. I hope it goes well for you. Hopefully it gets people interested in the genre, rather than just Sine Mora and Ikaruga.

[Estebang]

Oh man, the powerup drops are random? This game is worthless for scoring, or even judging skill in survival. And using subweapons kills your multiplier? That's depressingly similar to Nanostray.

You know what else randomizes an essential mechanic? Angry Birds.

If this is true, Reiker, did you seriously think it would have an effect on the game's level of mass appeal? I guess people do like Angry Birds, partly because it allows them to win simply by trying enough times that they get lucky...

Trying to get the masses interested in shmups again is a lost cause. It's just not going to happen in a world where Farmville, League of Legends, Minecraft, and CoD exist. Best to not compromise your game for their sake. Japan and NG:DEV Team have the right idea in milking the hardcore for all they're worth while they still can--at least they're guaranteed some sort of return.