IGF 2012 Dramafest (gamedev hipsters behaving badly)

[Estebang]

Yeah, that's not the kind of claim I would make if irrefutable proof straight from the developers didn't exist.

[louisg]

a complete lack of challenge

You can't really conclude that without playing it...

Nope.

There are no enemies in FEZ. No bosses, no combat. In fact, no conflict of any kind. You can die, but there is no penalty for doing so. FEZ aims to create a non-threatening world rich with ambiance, a pleasant place to spend time in.

http://polytroncorporation.com/what-is-fez

It looks to me like the point is to solve puzzles and get to the end of the game (find everything-- collect 'em up). What remains to be seen is how interesting the puzzles are or aren't. I did enjoy Kirby's Epic Yarn, FWIW, though I usually just pop that on to unwind from work. Though everyone knows Kirby's Epic Yarn sucks because it's Japanese

[Estebang]

I've mentioned this before: the problem with the central gimmick is that it seems that every would-be "puzzle" can simply be solved by fiddling with the camera for long enough until you find the right position. And unlike Echochrome, there isn't any sort of timing, strategy or time limit involved.

[louisg]

I've mentioned this before: the problem with the central gimmick is that it seems that every would-be "puzzle" can simply be solved by fiddling with the camera for long enough until you find the right position. And unlike Echochrome, there isn't any sort of timing, strategy or time limit involved.

It looks like you need to unlock doors by obtaining items, so it's possible that there's room for some order-specific behaviors. I'm not saying it won't suck-- judging by the dev's tantrum and poor attitude, I have a pretty good idea how it might turn out, and I'm not completely disagreeing with what you've said. I'm just saying that there's still room for it to be interesting even within that framework. The limit here is going to be how clever the developer is within his constraints.

[Estebang]

Well, he says outright that what they're going for is:

a non-threatening world rich with ambiance, a pleasant place to spend time in.

So I would think they're going to avoid like the plague anything that might give someone the slightest headache.

Echochrome was likely conceived as a new type of pen-and-paper puzzle not possible outside of a video game. Sure, there's treacly classical music and minimalist aesthetics, but they're just a backdrop to the puzzles themselves. All Fez cares about is providing a nearly passive "experience."

Come to think of it, what isn't an experience?

[louisg]

Well, he says outright that what they're going for is:

a non-threatening world rich with ambiance, a pleasant place to spend time in.

So I would think they're going to avoid like the plague anything that might give someone the slightest headache.

Echochrome was likely conceived as a new type of pen-and-paper puzzle not possible outside of a video game. Sure, there's treacly classical music and minimalist aesthetics, but they're just a backdrop to the puzzles themselves. All Fez cares about is providing a nearly passive "experience."

Come to think of it, what isn't an experience?

I definitely know people who go for that kind of stuff. Soaking in a game's worlds, obsessively collecting every single damn thing in the game, and valuing atmosphere sometimes over all else. It'll be interesting to see what they think of this, since Fez is going farther in a passivity direction than anything I can think of this side of After Dark. It's not really an invalid way of enjoying games, but I prefer tight gameplay to passive gameplay personally, so I'll probably end up skipping Fez. BUT, I'll make this argument, as long as we're arguing:

If you can put on an album and enjoy that, or stare at art and enjoy that, then why can't the same be done with a game? I guess the question at heart is whether a videogame can be entertaining when it is no longer a game and more of a video experiment.

[Estebang]

If you can put on an album and enjoy that, or stare at art and enjoy that, then why can't the same be done with a game? I guess the question at heart is whether a videogame can be entertaining when it is no longer a game and more of a video experiment.

Well, I posted this in the Journey thread:

But games are games, things you physically interact with, not pictures, music or movies. Sure, they can contain all those things, but their sum forms a very different whole. I'm all for emotional impact and quality production values in games. I love Mother 3, Killer7, and SotC. But the components of a passive experience by themselves are simply not enough.

I know you'll say that Flower and Journey do in fact require player input, obviously, but it's so easy, simple and unsubstantial that the game might as well be playing itself. To a lesser extent, this also goes for the Batman: Arkham games, where everything constantly auto-zooms, auto-locks in, auto-highlights itself, and the combat consists of mashing a button.

[Marc]

And you obviously missed the point of Flower completely.

[Estebang]

No, I didn't. "Take in the pretty graphics and relaxing sounds while tilting the controller around." It's Katamari with all the challenge and level design removed.

[Udderdude]

And you obviously missed the point of Flower completely.

You do realize that even if you get "the point", it's the equivalent of one of those cheezy new-age waterfall sound CDs that sell for $5 at Wal-mart, right? It's not anything worth getting excited over.

[Siren2011]

...the point being what exactly, Marc? I really want to hear this.

I know you'll say that Flower and Journey do in fact require player input, obviously, but it's so easy, simple and unsubstantial that the game might as well be playing itself. To a lesser extent, this also goes for the Batman: Arkham games, where everything constantly auto-zooms, auto-locks in, auto-highlights itself, and the combat consists of mashing a button.

That sounds about right. Technically, all games require pressing a button. If mashing that button alone during combat could win them the game, then the game would be poorly designed and simplistic. Now, if we added new enemies which attacked the player in 3 unique and deadly ways, each calling for a specific reaction on behalf of the player to defend himself (One might need a jump slash for diving enemies, a counter attack button for high sword clashes, etc.) then that button alone would not be a sufficient tool to get the job done. The game would become unfair. Now let's add those extra buttons/inputs to this hypothetical game. Enemy attacks can now be avoided so long as the player is conscious of what he is doing. This would take at least some level of skill, which is to say the opposite of a game like Flower.

[Estebang]

Unfortunately, Arkham's combat is no more complex than repeatedly pushing the attack button until you're told to press the counter button.

A righteous summary of events.

[Specineff]

The Hakox mini-game in Xenosaga 3 had more depth than this Fez thing. No pun intended. Like someone else said, there is just no challenge to this proof of concept masquerading as a game.

[Drum]

I imagine everybody is sick of this by now, but if you thought Phil Fish was just an ill-mannered douchebag before, it's time to downgrade your opinion to contemptible, sociopathic fuckface:

http://www.formspring.me/Tommunism/q/307280112447925736

Explanation: This is a guy from Team Meat. Fish voted against SMB because having MS as a pub isn't indie enough (that was the rationale, anyway). FUCK.

[Udderdude]

I dunno, I think that would still just make him your garden variety hypocrite. Which we already knew.

[louisg]

Yeah, I dunno why we're discussing this anymore.

You know what they called indie games when I was growing up?

VIDEOGAMES.

[Udderdude]

Seems like FEZ will actually see a release next month on Xbox Live Arcade. Color me surprised, I thought it would be at least another year of vaporware status :P

It's still going to be a boring-ass collect-a-thon with a gameplay gimmick that was better used in other games, though.

Maybe I'll get the soundtrack to it, apparently that's pretty good .. >_>

You know what they called indie games when I was growing up?

VIDEOGAMES.

You know what my parents called VIDEOGAMES when I was growing up?

The Nintendo. >_>

Also, lol @ this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cefRXuXX4A