Regarding Roguelikes

[Ruldra]

Some good tips there J_Taishu, thanks. I'll keep them in mind next time I play.

By the way, I was checking my brother's Android phone and came across Dungeon Ascendance, it's basically Desktop Dungeons on the phone, it's great. The Knight is probably the most fun class to play.

[Moniker]

Came across this list of console roguelikes: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment. ... _roguelike

Mostly Japan-only, but a lot of them have fan translations and so forth. I've tried out a fair few and so far Azure Dreams (GBC) is pretty rad. Dragon Crystal (SMS) & Fatal Labyrinth (GEN) are more like PC roguelikes, but have hellish UIs, so I prolly won't investigate much further.

The two sequels to Torneko were also released on GBA, and it looks like a fan translation is underway. I'm curious about the Dreamcast Shiren release - apparently it has a windows port. Must investigate.

[Ruldra]

Been playing a lot of Shiren these days. I stopped running away from fights and I'm finding the mines to be a lot more bearable now. Old Man Tanks and Flame Priests are still troublesome though. Best record so far is floor 18.

I'm trying to beat the game using only what I find along the way, but just in case, I'm slowly building up my "ascension kit" at the Summit Town warehouse. So far I have:

Nagamaki +16
Todo Shield +8
3 Holding Pots
1 Back Pot
4 Huge Riceballs

Still looking for a Far-Seeing Bracer and a couple of Revival Herbs.

I'm finding that your defense rating is far more important than your attack, so I'm not taking that stuff with me until my shield is at least +50. Totally overkill, but I need a backup plan if I can't beat the game the hard way.

[Estebang]

Has anyone here tried to play Elona? It's an absurdly detailed, time-consuming Japanese roguelike/life sim. You can amass a huge party of recruited monsters and other such things, which I guess is pretty rare for the genre. The graphics are quite ugly, but it does have a complete English translation. I've heard of at least one person losing months of their life to it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Druaga has some good mechanics, but the graphics hurt playability. Its 3D camera perspective limits your field of view compared to the sprite-based games, compounded by your diminishing resource being not food, but light.

I don't think it's a gameplay issue (limited visibility makes sense in a dungeon crawler), but it does feel like Alien Soldier of roguelikes, or a handheld game where your dude is SO big for no other reason than to show off with the dev's programming skills. Pretty bizzarre in a game nobody's gonna play for the graphics. I mean, we get it, you can move big sprites around, except these are not sprites anymore, so who cares?

[Moniker]

Has anyone here tried to play Elona? It's an absurdly detailed, time-consuming Japanese roguelike/life sim. You can amass a huge party of recruited monsters and other such things, which I guess is pretty rare for the genre. The graphics are quite ugly, but it does have a complete English translation. I've heard of at least one person losing months of their life to it.

I played a bit of it a few years back whilst in a fuck-you-ADOM nerd rage. It was a pretty decent ADOM clone back then, but had a lot of RPG elements that I typically don't like in my roguelikes. Has a very solid following, though. Keep meaning to give it another shot. Seems like Elona is to ADOM as Hengband is to Angband. Western basics with lots of crazy japanese crap piled on, for both better and worse. There's actually a pretty decent tower defense shooter on Kongregate by the same guy.. called Elona Shooter, if memory serves.

--

In other news, after reading about a guy who did a permadeath run of Far Cry 2, I've been toying with the idea of doing something similar. Anyone tried 1LCing/permadeathing a non-roguelike? Seems like FPSes with character builds, a flattish difficulty curve, and without much intrusive storytelling would be the best fit. I've been considering Borderlands, since it's part roguelike already. Bioshock 2 might not be a bad choice, either. I tend to spam respawns in both games, because it's consequence-free, so it would at least be interesting.

[Ruldra]

Anyone tried 1LCing/permadeathing a non-roguelike? Seems like FPSes with character builds, a flattish difficulty curve, and without much intrusive storytelling would be the best fit. I've been considering Borderlands, since it's part roguelike already. Bioshock 2 might not be a bad choice, either. I tend to spam respawns in both games, because it's consequence-free, so it would at least be interesting.

Have you played Borderlands in its entirety? Because it's a damn long game and no matter how cautious you are, a death will happen sooner or later. A single enemy 2 levels higher than you is enough to put you down. Or a random exploding barrel. Or a lucky hit from a boss, etc...

In any case, you should only go for a 1LC in games you're VERY familiar with. Picking a new game and going at it right off the bat is just asking for frustation.

[Estebang]

Borderlands is a glorified Diablo 2 with guns. It's not really comparable to true roguelikes.

[Obiwanshinobi]

One notable roguelike with real time combat - ToeJam & Earl.

[Moniker]

Borderlands is a glorified Diablo 2 with guns. It's not really comparable to true roguelikes.

No, but it has enough roguelike elements to keep replay interesting. Random loot, uniques, character builds, etc. And the second wind mechanic allows for a little wiggle room. Respawning enemies allows for grinding if absolutely necessary.

First attempt was with a soldier (I figure the turret will be pretty useful), died at Nine-Toes, because I kept pressing the wrong button for my inventory. Kept on thinking one of the shoulder buttons was a medkit hotkey. Almost had him, too... Ah well. Only one close call before that when standing too close to a barrel. Definitely gonna try again, with the possible addition of not using shops, to make runs more random.

I've played through the full game already... I remember a few bottlenecks, but not too many. It's a long game, but so is Angband.

[Ruldra]

First attempt was with a soldier (I figure the turret will be pretty useful), died at Nine-Toes, because I kept pressing the wrong button for my inventory. Kept on thinking one of the shoulder buttons was a medkit hotkey. Almost had him, too... Ah well. Only one close call before that when standing too close to a barrel. Definitely gonna try again, with the possible addition of not using shops, to make runs more random.

May I ask what build you're going for? The general consensus is that the turret takes way too many skill points to be useful, and leaves Roland rather weak in the process. It's better to invest in his own skills and use the turret as a distraction.

Borderlands is actually the next game on my "to do" list and I've read a lot about character builds on the official forums. From what I've seen there, Roland becomes a powerhouse when you build him around the Commando or the Heavy Gunner class mods.

[Moniker]

Yeah, I figure on using the turret more for emergency cover and distraction than offense. Also, if you get swarmed by skags you can catch them in the shield if you time it right. I haven't checked out any particular builds, but I figure I'll focus on shields and damage first, then turret cooldown, then some points in health and damage resist. As for mods, in my first playthrough I just treated them like gear and kept whatever was best at the time, generally favoring defensive benefits like health & shield regen. So if I get a choice I'll probably go with Tactician. Damage output and ammo were never big problems.

This was with Mordecai. With him I did mostly accuracy and kill-chain bonus traits, which served me well until the DLC. Getting slaughtered at General Knoxx, so I might respec. Never had much use for the hawk.

I figure due to the increase in caution I'll mostly be using sniper & combat rifles; will probably skip shotgun upgrades unless I happen across an especially awesome boomstick.

[Moniker]

Alright! Round 2. Used a different tack with Nine-Toes: bought a sniper rifle, then threw down my turret and started popping him in the head. Went down in no time. Before I tried using Ladyfinger and a shotgun. Was able to kill him even before his dogs came out, which fell quickly to my machine gun. I'm up to level 13 or so. Put all my points in shield regen speed, as I've only found a single shield that provides health regen and it's only got the minimum protection. Only close call so far was having my car demolished by a Badass Corrosive Skag, getting knocked unconscious, but managed to snipe one of his weaker buddies for a second wind. Threw down a turret and got the hell out of there.

Just before posting this, I got killed driving off an out-of-bounds cliff that gave no indication of danger until I was already over it. Think I'm going to ignore that one and press on.

[Ruldra]

Are you doing side-quests? Go and do the Skagzilla one!

Just reached floor 27 on Shiren! Only had a Dotanuki and an Iron Shield +1, but once I got inside Table Mountain I was rushing to the stairs and using my other resources like crazy. Bought a Reflex Shield at the last village and it helped me get past the Ravine, but after that I had no way to heal myself and eventually got killed.

It seems there's some sort of trial at the floor I died but I never got to see what it's like.

[Moniker]

Blech... killed by a Badass Psycho in Sledge's Safehouse. Didn't realize those bad boys could get you in one hit. Probably did the mission too early (was 1 level underqualified). Probably will give it a rest for a little bit - or maybe try a Lilith. Pretty great rush when you're fighting for that second wind; esp. when you get it. Note to self: always kill the high-hp guys first and leave some low-health little'uns around. If I hadn't already killed the midget shotgunner, I might've survived to kill the big Psycho.

Kudos on the Shiren progress. Once you make it that far, a win is close behind. The trials are just special enemy sets - I looked it up once I won because I thought I'd missed them.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Anyone tried 1LCing/permadeathing a non-roguelike? Seems like FPSes with character builds, a flattish difficulty curve, and without much intrusive storytelling would be the best fit.

I generally go for no gameovers in RPGs (if I get one I feel the run is 'dirty', just weird that way). Same goes for if I'm doing a campaign in stuff like Quake or whatnot.

Speaking of which, have you tried Coopordie? It's a mod for Quake 2 that basically allows for a permadeath campaign mode where you get medals based on how many people got through it without dying, inventory for the entire team gets reset if someone dies in challenge mode, etc. It's actually not that bad as long as you know what to look out for (getting a power shield increases your resilience like crazy) and knowing what instadeath traps to avoid (not getting the rocket launcher that sets off the giant drill trap in the mines, using an invulnerability to avoid the timeout damage from the Big Gun exploding or the laser + switch trap right before the final level).

[Ruldra]

I generally go for no gameovers in RPGs (if I get one I feel the run is 'dirty', just weird that way). Same goes for if I'm doing a campaign in stuff like Quake or whatnot.

I used to be like that, but ultimately I realized that continuing from the game over screen is no different than quitting the game and loading your savegame from the main menu. You just waste time in the process.

I got a few 1LCs under my belt (mainly arcade games and some console ones I've played to death, like Megaman X), but going for it in a long RPG or FPS is just silly IMO. There's always that enemy or hazard that will one-shot you no matter how cautious you are, and starting over is too annoying.

[Ruldra]

Speaking of which, when I first played Demon's Souls, I remember telling myself I'd try my hardest to not get killed. I died at Vanguard.

[Moniker]

The 2012 7DRL (Seven-day roguelike) competition is finished. 50 successes. They'll be judged over the coming weeks, but whatever Darren Grey, Jeff Lait or Ido Yehieli did is probably worth looking into. Slash occasionally comes through with good stuff as well.

http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment. ... ntest_2012

--

Trying something different while Borderlands cools. Diablo 2 hardcore ironman - ironman being no returning to town or using shops except when necessary to progress in the game. Pretty interesting not to be able to repair your kit - makes those white-coded items a lot more alluring... Been doing Sorceresses and Summon-free Necros, since those are actually challenging in the early game.

[Ruldra]

Trying something different while Borderlands cools. Diablo 2 hardcore ironman - ironman being no returning to town or using shops except when necessary to progress in the game. Pretty interesting not to be able to repair your kit - makes those white-coded items a lot more alluring... Been doing Sorceresses and Summon-free Necros, since those are actually challenging in the early game.

So you dropped Borderlands for something even tougher? You're pushing yourself too hard, lolz. I expect your death at the hands of Duriel, assuming you get that far.

When you return to Borderlands, may I suggest you play as Brick? His tank tree was made specifically to make you last longer (more health and shield, damage resistance, longer second wind, etc). And Berserk also regenerates health. Sounds perfect for a no-death run.

[Ruldra]

Finally made it to the top, using only a Katana +1 and an Iron Shield +3. But the game isn't beaten yet...there's still work to do.

I was really annoyed to find out that some items suddenly stopped working up there, including healing herbs. Ended up dying because of that.

[Moniker]

Trying something different while Borderlands cools. Diablo 2 hardcore ironman - ironman being no returning to town or using shops except when necessary to progress in the game. Pretty interesting not to be able to repair your kit - makes those white-coded items a lot more alluring... Been doing Sorceresses and Summon-free Necros, since those are actually challenging in the early game.

So you dropped Borderlands for something even tougher? You're pushing yourself too hard, lolz. I expect your death at the hands of Duriel, assuming you get that far.

I should mention that I've cleared most of Nightmare with a Hardcore Summonancer, so I know D2 pretty well. That said, Duriel is pretty much Sorcerer's bane. After about 6 games of Hardcore+Ironman I've made it to the Smith. Been playing a Lightning Sorceress, which is kinda alien to me. Putting a lot of points in energy and warming. I have decided to allow myself a minion, so that helps. Blood Raven has become trivial so I think I'm on the right track...

When you return to Borderlands, may I suggest you play as Brick? His tank tree was made specifically to make you last longer (more health and shield, damage resistance, longer second wind, etc). And Berserk also regenerates health. Sounds perfect for a no-death run.

The main reason I haven't made a serious attempt as Brick is his damage bonuses go towards melee and grenades, both of which are extremely risky on a permadeath run. I'll prolly give him at least one go, ignoring his damage/chain bonuses, but I think the smart money is on either Roland or Mordecai.

--

I can't remember healing stuff stop working at the TI. In fact, everything I tried still worked on the TI (confusion herb, knockback staff, and dragon herb, mostly). Hrm... Vexing indeed.

[Ruldra]

I can't remember healing stuff stop working at the TI. In fact, everything I tried still worked on the TI (confusion herb, knockback staff, and dragon herb, mostly). Hrm... Vexing indeed.

This is what I used when I got to the final room:

- Light scroll: didn't reveal more than what was already explored. Although I need to check if the entire room is just that tiny space, so in that case it worked fine.
- Bigroom scroll: the game especifically said "that doesn't work".
- Otogiri-So: This is what is bugging me the most, it never failed before. I took a hit from the final boss, had like 1/3 of my health left, then ate the herb. Can't remember what the message said but it didn't heal me at all. After that I took a dirt nap.

I really need to test this again and see what the hell happened.

By the way, I had a Buffoo Staff with me and it didn't occur to me to use it on the boss. I heard it's possible to genocide him, so the staff might work too.

[Moniker]

By the way, I had a Buffoo Staff with me and it didn't occur to me to use it on the boss. I heard it's possible to genocide him, so the staff might work too.

IIRC, the Buffoo (Bufu staff in DS version - staff that turns monsters into meat) doesn't work on the boss. One of the few items that don't work on him - I think switching doesn't work either. I can't remember if throwing meat at him has any effect, but might be worth a shot. There may be differences b/w the SFC and NDS versions on this score.

I'd recommend slowing and confusing him straight off. No use taking risks.

When you get back to him, do me a favor and throw down a savestate to make sure that healing herbs/jars don't work. I've been playing a game of the SFC version here and there, and that would be quite a rude awakening.

[Ruldra]

I actually made a savestate immediately after reaching the top floor, but I have a personal rule of not using them until I've beaten the game. When I get there legitimately again, first thing I'm doing is test the healing herbs again.

[Ruldra]

VICTOLY!



Without using the warehouse too, I'm really proud of that Taking down the final boss was just a matter of using decoy staff on all enemies to make them kill each other, then eating Death meat and kick his ass. He went down much faster than I expected. Took me about 60 attempts overall.

Since then I reloaded a savestate and tried other tactics on him:

- Healing herbs works just fine. I have no idea what happened in the previous fight but you can heal yourself in the final room, so don't worry about that.
- Buffoo staff doesn't work on the final boss, but throwing a meat at him works! Then use Buffoo staff at him again and it's a insta-kill.

I noticed that two more dungeons are unlocked now. How many floors do they have?

[Moniker]

Kudos! Great job. That's interesting that meat works; IIRC you have to unlock it the bufu staff in a bonus dungeon in the DS version, but I'd always assumed neither would work. Unfortunately (at least in the DS version) the Insect stays dead after being killed.

IIRC, all the bonus dungeons go at least to 99F if you're so inclined, but you can get the win conditions much earlier.

I think the first two dungeons you unlock are the Dungeon of the Kitchen God - which is around 25 levels to beat, The gimmick is meat. Bufu cleaver is way too much fun.

Then there's the trap dungeon, which is shorter (thankfully), but you get to place your own traps there. I can't say I cared for it, but it wasn't too hard.

Tainted Path is sort of a continuation of the main quest.. I think it goes to 80F. The only one I'd say is probably unwinnable without some item scumming.

Faye's Final Puzzle is basically the pure roguelike version of the game. 100F, all loot available, all unidentified by default. Lose all items and exp upon entry. Also the best, IMO. Still haven't beaten it, myself.

There are a couple others, but I can't really remember what they're about.

[Ruldra]

I'm googling around and apparently there are only 3 bonus dungeons in the SNES version. The Kitchen God one, the Trap one, and only after completing both it'll unlock the Final Puzzle. I completed all 50 puzzles from Faye and right now he's showing me the first puzzle again.

I don't see the foreign wanderer anywhere in the first village so it looks like the Tainted Path dungeon is missing here. Bummer.

I think I'll take a break from the game for now. Will tackle the Final Puzzle sometime in the future.

EDIT: Or maybe I should man up and play NetHack already.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Anyone ever try Triangle Wizard? It's sort of what you'd get if you took a roguelike with a heavy spellcasting focus and gave it real-time combat (WASD/space controls for movement and dodging, mouse to aim/fire). Very tough, but it's a whole lot of fun to try out the ridiculously varied race/class/religion options. Art style is abstract, but otherwise very clean and well done.

[Danny]

I have mainly been playing Z.H.P. a fairly obscure rougelike by the makers of Disgaea so expect some great sprites and a lot of sillyness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wn6NYU7QeU ~ Trailer

There are also two other PS2 rougelikes that nobody has mentioned here yet. One of which being a Simple 2000 game called 'Simple 2000 Series Vol. 20: The Dungeon RPG' which was renamed when brought over to Europe as Eternal Quest. My only problem with it is that is does allow the player to save at any time and I don't think it erases the file when you die. However I don't use the save function and have beaten this game without dying which is pretty tough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJvnr0Ax5wc ~ Gameplay

Then there is Baroque on the PS2 (and Wii) which was a remake of an old Sega Saturn game and was called Baroque Returns in Japan. The difference being this game is less of a first person maze RPG and more of a real time rougelike. Super tough yet very creepy game, has a ton of depth to it just try not to use that super powerful gun of yours!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wWlBrxN ... re=related ~ Gameplay