Journey - PSN

[njiska]

But games are games, things you physically interact with, not pictures, music or movies. Sure, they can contain all those things, but their sum forms a very different whole. I'm all for emotional impact and quality production values in games. I love Mother 3, Killer7, and SotC. But the components of a passive experience by themselves are simply not enough.

I know you'll say that Flower and Journey do in fact require player input, obviously, but it's so easy, simple and unsubstantial that the game might as well be playing itself. To a lesser extent, this also goes for the Batman: Arkham games, where everything constantly auto-zooms, auto-locks in, auto-highlights itself, and the combat consists of mashing a button.

Why do you make the assumption that Journey is a passive experience? The game in not simply walking from point A to point B. There is platforming, there are puzzles (albeit simple ones), there are numerous areas to explore that reward you with either subtle backstory or scarf upgrades that allow you to fly longer and reach new area. One chapter even acts as a giant snowboard style course through some ruins. No, you can't die or fail, but you can definitely challenge yourself by trying to make it through the numerous slaloms or hitting some of the jumps for higher air. Plus there's the whole co-operative aspect which I found surprisingly engaging.

Curious that you chose to mention Killer 7 as a counter point. Now that's a game that I truly love, but it's also one where the gameplay takes a back seat to everything else. It's simple, repetitive and once you have the upgrades to allow easy lock on targeting of weak spots it becomes a complete joke.

[Moniker]

If everything is good, then there is no concept of good--nothing to distinguish it from evil.

If everything is art, there is no non-art, and there is no point in labeling anything as art. It becomes a valueless concept.

A pretty 1:1 analogy, I'd say.

Bad reasoning & analogy. If goodness is indeed a purely relative descriptor, then yes, if everything is equally good, such a descriptor becomes meaningless. If instead it denotes a set of properties, such as "that which does not cause suffering," then it would be redundant, but far from meaningless. If nothing causes suffering, then everything is good, which is entirely distinguishable from the notion that everything is bad.

Art is not a relative descriptor. It is a set of properties (that no one really agrees on) ascribed to works. If we say that art is that which evokes a unique and human response from its beholder, then indeed, all things can be art. If everything is composed of subatomic particles, does such a designation become valueless? Far from being a valueless concept, this opens up a fresh experiential perspective. Even without this provision, we generally limit our notion of art down drastically from "everything" to that which a) exists, b) is observable, c) is man-made, and d) is the product of authorial intent. Despite such a broad definition, the notion of art is neither redundant nor irrelevant.

In my view, the artistic property and quality is conferred when and how it is experienced - independent of the object in question. It is my desire to perceive life, and by extension everything I experience, as a work of art. I'm still trying to nail down the definition, though.

[Estebang]

Journey's problem is that it offers a huge world with scarce little of anything to do in it. It's Hyrule Field, 2012 Edition. The platforming and puzzles offer no consequences for error (or many opportunities for it), and don't offer much of any reward, so why are they even there? It's not too interesting "hitting some of the jumps" for their own sake--in Tony Hawk, I at least want to get points for my radical kickflips and air grabs.

It's rather telling that the main character is a cone-shaped blob with an emoticon for a face.

Killer7 isn't the best example I could have given, but it at least offers a considerable margin for error, multiple characters with varied advantages and attributes, difficult and complex boss battles, a couple genuinely puzzling puzzles, and a challenging hard mode.

[Ruldra]

Journey's problem is that it offers a huge world with scarce little of anything to do in it.

Travelling around sight-seeing can be fun too. It's nice to sit back and enjoy the scenery, that's the whole point of the game.

Exploring the map on horseback was half of the game in SotC and it was great. It was also the main reason I got Fuel, a racing game with a massive game world. Picking your bike, jumping into Free Roam mode and spending 2 hours crossing the whole map was as fun as taking part of the race events. I planned to do some exploring in RDR too but unfortunately I had to get rid of that game.

It's fine if it's not your thing, but no need to bash it so much. Games aren't all about killing enemies and increasing your score.

[Estebang]

Travelling around sight-seeing can be fun too. It's nice to sit back and enjoy the scenery, that's the whole point of the game.

That's pretty lame if it's the only "point" a game has. As I've mentioned before, Myst and Riven have plenty of spectacular and imaginative scenery, but in those games it always acts as a stage for complex environmental puzzles. You're forced to gain a real understanding of how the components of the environment function together, not just a superficial impression. Even SotC is like this: sure, there's miles of empty sightseeing between the colossus battle arenas, but the arenas act as very carefully and deliberately crafted clockwork that allows you to defeat the colossi through strategic exploitation of the environment. If you merely want to look at pretty landscapes, the Discovery Channel has you more than covered.

Exploring an empty, nonthreatening virtual world is about as interesting as being an after-hours janitor at an amusement park.

[njiska]

Exploring an empty, nonthreatening virtual world is about as interesting as being an after-hours janitor at an amusement park.

And with that your entire argument is void because it's clear we are no longer talking about merits, but personal preferences. We all except that you do not like Journey's gameplay style or purpose, but that has no bearing on Journey's merits as a game. It's no different then me hating on JRPGs because they're boring grindfests.

[blackoak]

So I played through Journey last night all the way through. Its a bit disappointing overall... not because I expected the kind of game Estebang is describing, but because I don't think it goes far enough with its ideas and wastes its aesthetic on boring tasks. To wit: its essentially a more nuanced retooling of the flower engine in terms of what you do... instead of petals, its fabric pieces. You have the same linearity of "awakening" objects in the landscape that you had in flower.

When I heard about this game, I thought it was going to be wayyyy more abstract. I really took them at their word for "its a journey to this mountain." I imagined a very large desert I'd walk through, encountering various things and people along the way, perhaps with some puzzle solving involved--but nothing as direct and simple as what is presented. The paint-by-numbers nature of "reawakening" and releasing the fabric pieces is really at odds with what could have been more noble, subtle, abstract goals. Its like art games still can't decide what they want to be: artistic experiences akin to a hike or bike tour (or something else), or glorified plebe jobs in questionably "immersive" environments. Journey has a vestigial tail no graphical window dressing can cover up...

Here I'm going to side with Estebang on the idea that if I am given a task, it needs to be interesting, hence my love of shmups and pattern recognition/scoring systems. The tasks in Journey bored the hell out of me. I didn't buy the game so I could be constantly drawn back into a utilitarian "task mode" of thinking. Blegh.

Another disappointment: I heard a lot about the tonal system of communication with music, but its just flower's tonally aligned petal keyboard hits all over again. Granted, in some sequences its helpful, but it has no real communication effect aside from a vague "follow me" or "watch this" between players. There is also no control of the notes aside from the rhythm of button presses, so there's no real expression. Its just a very shallow aesthetic gimmick.

Anyway... the negative comments suggest I hated it, but I thought it was just ok. It lies somewhere between a film short and a game. Once I accepted that it wasn't going to be anything special, but just a very beautiful trip with vaguely annoying tasks, I enjoyed the 1.5 hours in it. I don't see coming back to it, so its a bit like an expensive movie ticket in that regard.

[Udderdude]

If I could sum up the entire thing in one word, it would be "vapid". (I refuse to refer to it as a game, as that's stretching the defintion of what a game is beyond the breaking point)

[Skykid]

Now, people are just eating this manipulative nonsense up, deluded into thinking that its self-proclaimed status as "art" somehow invalidates it of all criticism.

*Cough*Metal Gear Solid*Cough*

[Estebang]

You need a glass of water there Skykid?

[Drum]

I think we all need something stronger.

[neorichieb1971]

If "journey" involves something other than shooting everything in sight count me in.

[Estebang]

If "journey" involves something other than shooting everything in sight count me in.

Then I give you The Secret of Monkey Island, Riven, The Journeyman Project 3, Steins;Gate, Saya no Uta, Kuru Kuru Kururin, Kororinpa, Puyo Puyo, Gussun Oyoyo, Uo Poko and Tetris: The Grand Master 3. They all have much, much more to offer than this brainless hiking simulator.

[Moniker]

They all have much, much more to offer than this brainless hiking simulator.

Now the question is: is something desirable because it is desired, or desired because it is desirable? If desirability is intrinsic to an object, then your point may be valid, and people can be duped into desiring something undesirable, or enjoying something worthless. However, in this case, the object is desirable even when unobserved or unknown. If, on the other hand, desirability is conferred upon it actively by observers, then it is pointless to argue an object's worth, since that is established solely by the individual's capacity to enjoy it. In which case, and all else being equal, it may well be considered morally reprehensible to attempt to inhibit or limit another's capacity for enjoyment. I certainly cannot see how it might be considered morally righteous.

[Ed Oscuro]

Progression of a Gamer

Art Conservator -> Score Player -> Doesn't Afraid of Anything

Estebang is on the cusp of making the second transition!

(You could alternatively label the first two phases "Everything is Gold" and "Cutter")

[Udderdude]

I think the real issue is that some (not all) people who like Journey refuse to claim it's just a brainless hiking simulator that they happen to enjoy. They want to see it as some sort of grandiose work of game-as-art or whatever. Making it into something it's most definitely not.

Similar to those Final Fantasy Tactics/Tactics Ogre fans who desperately want to believe their favorite game is strategically deep and interesting, when it's really a retarded easy mode grind fest that's horribly balanced and broken.

If they would just admit "Yeah it's dumb and easy with no real substance, but I like it anyway", I doubt there would be an issue, but they run around claiming it's TEH BESTEST GAME/ART EAVAR!!!!!1

Of course there's the argument that you really shouldn't give a crap what other people think, but it really does end up influencing things as a whole. Oh well.

[Estebang]

stuff

The question here is not whether Journey is or isn't enjoyable at all. If you enjoyed it, I don't really care. But as Udderdude said:

I think the real issue is that some (not all) people who like Journey refuse to claim it's just a brainless hiking simulator that they happen to enjoy. They want to see it as some sort of grandiose work of game-as-art or whatever. Making it into something it's most definitely not.

If they would just admit "Yeah it's dumb and easy with no real substance, but I like it anyway", I doubt there would be an issue, but they run around claiming it's TEH BESTEST GAME/ART EAVAR!!!!!1

When you try to defend it on its own merits--not simply your own enjoyment of it--then I must take issue. You can't completely nail down the concept of desirability to either intrinsic value or personal preference.

Additionally, I am arguing that these other games will offer MORE value than Journey, which obviously doesn't have to mean that Journey has NO value.

[Super Laydock]

Pure, and gorgeous, escapism!

Loved it.

[Skykid]

You know how all this goes and I know how all this goes, but if icy felt the need to tell people that they were doing it wrong here, he would do it himself.

I thought Cave Story was one of the top 10 best games ever (despite what Icy thinks, it's good, just not that good)

Newsflash/Cult of Blind Idiocy Breaches Shmups.org

[Skykid]

Pure, and gorgeous, escapism!

Loved it.

Righty.

I watched the trailer and was intrigued. I buy nothing for my PS3 and usually stay away from downloading random games, but for some reason I forked out for this.

Do I think £10 is a little steep for the game length? Yes. Do I regret it? Fuck no. This was a really nice experience, one of the best I've had with the PS3 (although tbh, it doesn't get much gaming use).

It's artistic in a creative sense, not an abstract one. I was initially a little miffed when I found out it wasn't a rolling landscape like SOTC (as I was lead to believe from the trailer) and broken down into sections, but as you begin to get into each chapter's unique flavour it wasn't really a problem.

As Laydock said, it was beautiful escapism. Fucking short escapism mind you (I thought it would be about 2 hrs longer!) but sumptuous and engaging for what was there.

Admittedly it was more an experience than a game, with only one section that tested you much at all; but the journey as it was, was quite a lovely thing. It had an emotional connection and it was very beautifully composed. There were some magic moments too; the dune surfing ruled and I really liked the underground escape slide. And the ending, which I won't spoil.
I didn't even realise the multiplayer thing existed until the end of the game and I found out those dudes running around with me were real people I had 8 different companions on the course of the journey turns out. I was wondering why my cohort toward the end kept getting his ass blown up by the dragons and didn't just wait in the huts lol, I thought it was crappy AI!

I enjoyed it. Quite a bit now I write this retrospectively. I shall sleep contently.

[Cellinaire]

Journey's problem is that it offers a huge world with scarce little of anything to do in it. It's Hyrule Field, 2012 Edition. The platforming and puzzles offer no consequences for error (or many opportunities for it), and don't offer much of any reward, so why are they even there? It's not too interesting "hitting some of the jumps" for their own sake--in Tony Hawk, I at least want to get points for my radical kickflips and air grabs.

It's rather telling that the main character is a cone-shaped blob with an emoticon for a face.

Killer7 isn't the best example I could have given, but it at least offers a considerable margin for error, multiple characters with varied advantages and attributes, difficult and complex boss battles, a couple genuinely puzzling puzzles, and a challenging hard mode.

I think the customers of this game should've already known about that when they bought the game. And, there's small portion of audiences/gamers who actually prefer atmosphere, story(often thought-provoking one), and unique interation between characters and the environment.

[Udderdude]

Journey's problem is that it offers a huge world with scarce little of anything to do in it. It's Hyrule Field, 2012 Edition. The platforming and puzzles offer no consequences for error (or many opportunities for it), and don't offer much of any reward, so why are they even there? It's not too interesting "hitting some of the jumps" for their own sake--in Tony Hawk, I at least want to get points for my radical kickflips and air grabs.

It's rather telling that the main character is a cone-shaped blob with an emoticon for a face.

Killer7 isn't the best example I could have given, but it at least offers a considerable margin for error, multiple characters with varied advantages and attributes, difficult and complex boss battles, a couple genuinely puzzling puzzles, and a challenging hard mode.

I think the customers of this game should've already known about that when they bought the game. And, there's small portion of audiences/gamers who actually prefer atmosphere, story(often thought-provoking one), and unique interation between characters and the environment.

I hope you aren't suggesting Journey actually has any of that.

[Estebang]

Let's get this straight: Agreeing with some of his views doesn't mean I'm a peon or proxy of Icy, guys. I am here to push my own views, not his.

It's artistic in a creative sense, not an abstract one.

?????

How can you be artistic without being creative? At least you can admit that abstraction isn't creative.

And Skykid thinks my posts are confusingly worded.

Admittedly it was more an experience than a game

I'll say it again: What isn't an experience? Sucking water out of a wet towel is an experience. Fracturing your elbow is an experience. It's impossible to stop having experiences until you're dead. Is wandering in Journey's empty world somehow more legitimate as an experience than 2-ALL clearing Muchi Pork?

[CMoon]

[Estebang]

Eating tacos is also a nice experience.

[Skykid]

It's artistic in a creative sense, not an abstract one.

?????

How can you be artistic without being creative? At least you can admit that abstraction isn't creative.

And Skykid thinks my posts are confusingly worded.

There's nothing wrong with the wording, it is what I said it was. I didn't insinuate you could be artistic without being creative, I just suggested it's not an abstract game.

Admittedly it was more an experience than a game

I'll say it again: What isn't an experience? Sucking water out of a wet towel is an experience. Fracturing your elbow is an experience. It's impossible to stop having experiences until you're dead. Is wandering in Journey's empty world somehow more legitimate as an experience than 2-ALL clearing Muchi Pork?

Woefully tiring efforts to wring obtuse combative arguments from simple and easy-to-understand phrasing that requires only a small bit of brainpower to read between the lines. You don't need the semantics spelled out for you unless you only have the ability to compute words in the singular and not as part of a sentence or larger point.
Your capacity for any credible argument did go out the window when you called Metal Gear Solid artistic rather than autistic, however, so engaging you in a conversation that requires any kind of cognitive reasoning is going to be a lose lose situation for any unwitting participant.

So let's try this: no-one gives a fuck if you don't get Journey.

Perhaps that's easier to digest?

[njiska]

I think the customers of this game should've already known about that when they bought the game. And, there's small portion of audiences/gamers who actually prefer atmosphere, story(often thought-provoking one), and unique interation between characters and the environment.

I hope you aren't suggesting Journey actually has any of that.

Only a fool would try to claim it does not. The game is steeped in atmosphere from the vast awe-inspiring dunes to the dark underground ruins, cold oppressive snow mountains and the euphoric final chapter. There is a story here; both what you experience and the story of the world which is told through hidden, animated pictographs. Unique interaction between the character, other players and the environment is also there. How you charge your scarf and maintain flight is heavily dependant on how you use the area and other players to your advantage. Reaching some hidden areas can be a real challenge. Plus with such a limited communication system it can take some ingenuity to properly get the assistance you require.

[neorichieb1971]

Being a gaming customer I like to choose what fits me. Journey provides an experience I haven't had before. I will try it because it does that alone. It has nothing to do with art, game length or anything like that.

I think if there is a prize for liking what everyone else likes, I won't win that prize because i'm not buying or liking whatever everyone else likes. I find out myself what I like and I don't care if you think I should not like it. If shit tastes good to me I'm going to eat alot of shit.

[Udderdude]

Plus with such a limited communication system it can take some ingenuity to properly get the assistance you require.

[Skykid]

^ LMAO