IGF 2012 Dramafest (gamedev hipsters behaving badly)

[Udderdude]

Having an epiphany... there really is too much drama in this hobby.

Feeling emasculated. Guess it's time to go shave my pussy.

So wait, that makes you feel more masculine?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emasculated :P

I'm pretty out of touch with western games for the most part (Fallout being the exception). Since I only import shooters I have no idea what all this Japanese gaming sucks is all about. I'm kind of interested though. Anyone care to elaborate?

Japanese creativity has been stifled since they spend all their time trying to make games they think westerners would like, since we're now the largest market. They invented an entire era of game design that has suddenly become outdated in favour of cinematic FPS/action/adventure style games, which they suck at making because they don't understand the core appeal. They take existing IP's like RE and build on it's Japanese groundwork by bolting on as much westernised frippery as they can, or copy outright. Either way, it often results in an uncomfortable work with limited appeal.

This is a good write-up, however to make such a blanket statement is of course ludicrous. Modern 3D action games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta are top notch, and big surprise .. Japanese developers :P

[louisg]

Japanese creativity has been stifled since they spend all their time trying to make games they think westerners would like, since we're now the largest market. They invented an entire era of game design that has suddenly become outdated in favour of cinematic FPS/action/adventure style games, which they suck at making because they don't understand the core appeal. They take existing IP's like RE and build on it's Japanese groundwork by bolting on as much westernised frippery as they can, or copy outright. Either way, it often results in an uncomfortable work with limited appeal.

This is a good write-up, however to make such a blanket statement is of course ludicrous. Modern 3D action games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta are top notch, and big surprise .. Japanese developers

I should also point out that RE was already modeled after western games like Alone in the Dark. The first one was pretty Myst/7th Guest-like in its puzzles too. So, RE4 being sorta-first-person-but-not-really isn't exactly the first time the series had western influences.

Also, JP games were some of the first to really successfully be big-budget cinematic whatchamacallits, if you look at the PSX era. It was attempted before, but usually came out very cheesily with live actors (like Wing Commander III or something), and not integrated into the gameplay as much as something like Metal Gear Solid. PSX era was when it became the rule rather than the exception (for better or worse). So, cinematic games aren't really just a western influence thing.

One thing is certain: Western console gamer tastes have shifted to become more like PC gamer tastes: FPSses and open Ultima-like RPGs are big hits now. A generation or two ago, this wasn't the case nearly as frequently.

TBQH, if we want to talk about originality in the games industry, we probably shouldn't be focusing on huge budget commercial projects anyway!

[Skykid]

This is a good write-up, however to make such a blanket statement is of course ludicrous. Modern 3D action games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta are top notch, and big surprise .. Japanese developers

Sorry for the confusion guys, it was meant to be a blanket statement: just thought I would provide a general synopsis for burgerkingdiamond to give him the gist, and not take all day about it.

I'm not under the delusion Japan can't produce anything of value.

Hope that sets things straight.

[replayme]

Modern 3D action games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta are top notch, and big surprise .. Japanese developers

I personally have never gotten on with Platinum games. I own Vanquish, Mad World, and Bayonetta, and have just never had the inclination to play any of them bar the first few minutes.

Still think God Of War is a better franchise personally, with GoW2 probably being the best action slash-em-up in existence. The set-pieces and sheer scope of that game is incredible. Hard to believe it was done on a PS2.

[Skykid]

Modern 3D action games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta are top notch, and big surprise .. Japanese developers

I personally have never gotten on with Platinum games. I own Vanquish, Mad World, and Bayonetta, and have just never had the inclination to play any of them bar the first few minutes.

Still think God Of War is a better franchise personally, with GoW2 probably being the best action slash-em-up in existence. The set-pieces and sheer scope of that game is incredible. Hard to believe it was done on a PS2.

I also agree with all of the above, for the record. Platinum is far from the savior of Japanese games imo, I actually think Ninja Gaiden is a superior combat oriented game, and GOW just better in general.

[louisg]

MadWorld was awful Bring back Viewtiful Joe!

[Khan]

With all this talk i wonder how things will pan out, will people still support this douchebag and buy his game? will microsoft cut their ties with him despite their contract? or will the publicity help? what with the way the western world soaks up these kind of soap operas it wouldnt surprise me if nothing happens, I will be honest I wont be buying the game judging from the videos the music was the only thing that appealed to me my decision was cemented with this his little outburst now yes me not buying it wont really affect him as such but I wonder how many people will follow suit.

You can even see how at the moment people are ridiculing him for his comments on youtube and the worst part of it is hes loving the attention.

[Udderdude]

Most likely result: It comes out on XBLA, does decent there but not amazing, MS shelves it into the 'back of the library' with the other indie games.

It gets reviews ranging from typical "OMG BESTEST INDIE GAME EVER JUST LIKE THE LAST ONE" to "Boring wander around an empty world thing that was never going to live up to the hype".

2 years later, it comes out for PC and by then nobody really gives a shit anymore.

[Skykid]

Not to support Fish's candour, but I watched a 5 min gameplay vid of Fez and, despite aspects of plagiarism, I do think it looks pretty neat. I'd like to play it.

[Estebang]

Most likely result: It comes out on XBLA, does decent there but not amazing, MS shelves it into the 'back of the library' with the other indie games.

Yep, this would be the final outcome even without Fish destroying his image and credibility. Despite all the brouhaha surrounding Super Meat Boy, it's only sold around a quarter million downloads on the 360. And with MS's exclusivity contract, Fez won't have a Steam release to save it from irrelevance.

I'd like to play Fez too--just to wheel around the camera for a few minutes and go "ooh" and "ahh" at the environment changing. I would not pay a single cent to do so, though.

[replayme]

Modern 3D action games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta are top notch, and big surprise .. Japanese developers

I personally have never gotten on with Platinum games. I own Vanquish, Mad World, and Bayonetta, and have just never had the inclination to play any of them bar the first few minutes.

Still think God Of War is a better franchise personally, with GoW2 probably being the best action slash-em-up in existence. The set-pieces and sheer scope of that game is incredible. Hard to believe it was done on a PS2.

I also agree with all of the above, for the record. Platinum is far from the savior of Japanese games imo, I actually think Ninja Gaiden is a superior combat oriented game, and GOW just better in general.

Would certainly be interesting to see as to how Platinum handle the upcoming MGS: Revengeance game...

Having said that though, there are plenty of reasons as to why JPN games development doesn't suck - Hideo Kojima and Hiroshi Iuchi being just 2...

[Drum]

God of War is actually really bad, fyi. And Hideo Kojima is awful.

And yeah, since they hit it big in the west with Final Fight back in '89, Capcom has specifically targeted a lot of their big games to western tastes. SFII was a direct response to the success of FF. And think of all their licensed beat 'em ups/platformers.

[Skykid]

God of War is actually really bad, fyi. And Hideo Kojima is awful.

As Morgan Freeman once said, I agree with the second part.

[Zaarock]

And Hideo Kojima is awful.

Eh, I get bashing the MGS series to some extent but what about Snatcher, Policenauts, etc.? Also MGS Peace walker is a pretty good 3ps and coop game that barely plays like anything in the MGS series.

I want to see how Zone of the Enders 3 would turn out at least.

God of War > Ninja Gaiden > Bayonetta(DMC?)

Isn't this the opposite order in terms of which has the most depth? :p Rarely see people playing GoW nearly as seriously(or even multiple playthroughs) as the other two anyway.

[Skykid]

God of War > Ninja Gaiden > Bayonetta(DMC?)

Isn't this the opposite order in terms of which has the most depth? :p Rarely see people playing GoW nearly as seriously(or even multiple playthroughs) as the other two anyway.

Did I write that somewhere?

GOW doesn't really stand up to NG or Bayonetta as a combat game. For that I'd put NG as my top, even though Bayonetta has more depth and complexity (it's the rest of Netta's game design I feel drags it down.) GOW is superior imo as an adventure experience, large-scale production and in terms of broad appeal: but it's a one time affair and just for fun, whereas NG and Bayonetta offer replay value since they're more skill-based.

[replayme]

God of War is actually really bad, fyi. And Hideo Kojima is awful.

Let's just agree to disagree...

No good will come out of this.

[Zaarock]

Did I write that somewhere?

Well, you said you agreed with all that replayme said (like GoW2 being the best or something).

GOW is superior imo as an adventure experience, large-scale production and in terms of broad appeal: but it's a one time affair and just for fun, whereas NG and Bayonetta offer replay value since they're more skill-based.

Yeah, I agree with you here, they're more about the adventure and setting etc. I've played through the first two GoW games but only once. Weird that I never felt like replaying the second one, did enjoy it.

[TLB]

GOW is superior imo as an adventure experience, large-scale production and in terms of broad appeal: but it's a one time affair and just for fun, whereas NG and Bayonetta offer replay value since they're more skill-based.

Funny, I thought fun was the entire reason to play a video game.

That said, I think video games blow.

[GaijinPunch]

Having an epiphany... there really is too much drama in this hobby.

Feeling emasculated. Guess it's time to go shave my pussy.

So wait, that makes you feel more masculine?

No.

[Drum]

God of War is actually really bad, fyi. And Hideo Kojima is awful.

Let's just agree to disagree...

No good will come out of this.

How is it possible that somebody who likes God of War and Hideo Kojima is the better man?

[Estebang]

God of War is a shitty, pandering, poor man's Devil May Cry.

On top of this, the game gives you the illusion of choice. By the end of the game you will have acquired a wide array of subweapons, abilities, alternative melee attacks, and new combos, all of which can be leveled up. During combat you have free and ready access to any of these, all of which will jerk around and beat down the hordes of mindless generic greco zombies that surround you. There is a large element of choice here, but regardless of your input, the output is always the same. There’s nothing resembling strategy here. This is Final Fantasy VII turned into an action game: at the end of the day, it’s only about overkilling your foes in new and interesting ways. That powerful new summon you find isn’t appealing because it’s powerful, but merely because it’s new — so you can see that totally sweet cutscene that plays when you use it.

[Skykid]

God of War is a shitty, pandering, poor man's Devil May Cry.

Man, you guys talk some shit sometimes. How can GOW be a poor man's Devil May Cry? I wouldn't even put them in the same genre.

And stop linking rubbish reviews.

"No. This is not what videogames are. I give God of War 2 zero stars because I do not play videogames to numb the pleasure centers of my brain. And I certainly do not pay fifty dollars for the privilege."

What an idiot.

[Estebang]

So demanding that a video game respect one's intelligence makes you an idiot? Pathetic.

[Udderdude]

God of War is a shitty, pandering, poor man's Devil May Cry.

On top of this, the game gives you the illusion of choice. By the end of the game you will have acquired a wide array of subweapons, abilities, alternative melee attacks, and new combos, all of which can be leveled up. During combat you have free and ready access to any of these, all of which will jerk around and beat down the hordes of mindless generic greco zombies that surround you. There is a large element of choice here, but regardless of your input, the output is always the same. There’s nothing resembling strategy here. This is Final Fantasy VII turned into an action game: at the end of the day, it’s only about overkilling your foes in new and interesting ways. That powerful new summon you find isn’t appealing because it’s powerful, but merely because it’s new — so you can see that totally sweet cutscene that plays when you use it.

Hasn't this guy heard of 'no upgrade runs'? Player created challenges aren't always the worst thing ever .. >_>

Also, that review page made my browser chug for some retarded reason (HTML megafail?)

[Skykid]

So demanding that a video game respect one's intelligence makes you an idiot? Pathetic.

You might need to rephrase that. Not sure I get it.

that review page made my browser chug for some retarded reason (HTML megafail?)

Review megafail.

[Estebang]

So far neither of you have actually made an attempt at refuting a single point brought up in the review. Until you do, your "lol fail" comments are invalid. Though you're right about Action Button having shit HTML--nothing I can do about that, sadly.

I guess Skykid needs my last post dumbed down for him, so: You seem to think that a person is an idiot if they don't want a video game to treat them like one. This is absurd and illogical. Also, I'm interested in knowing what two different genres you would put God of War and DMC in.

I played about half of God of War 2 before I realized there was no reason to keep going.

[Udderdude]

It looks like GoW 2 has some difficulty settings, are you saying even on the hardest difficulty it's still a mindless button masher with QTEs?

[Estebang]

It's certainly harder on the highest difficulty, but it's still as mindless as ever.

[Skykid]

I guess Skykid needs my last post dumbed down for him

Er... I don't. Just reworded. EDIT: You omitted a character and it made it confusing on first read.

Also, I'm interested in knowing what two different genres you would put God of War and DMC in.

Which point of the thread did you start reading from? Look up:

GOW doesn't really stand up to NG or Bayonetta as a combat game... GOW is superior imo as an adventure experience, large-scale production.

So DMC would be skill-based combat, GOW cinematic action adventure.

I played about half of God of War 2 before I realized there was no reason to keep going.

GOW2 is a solid 8 on a scale of 10. It's not the greatest thing to ever happen to gaming and not as profound as the original, but it's well designed and perfectly playable. Ragging on popular and successful games doesn't make anyone come off as smart unless they have really valid points. The review you linked makes none, it's just "ZOMG it's not Japanese like God Hand" (also in a different genre) and its relative simplicity is not to his tastes.

You seem to think that a person is an idiot if they don't want a video game to treat them like one.

GOW is dumb fun, but it's well made dumb fun. There is some variety to the combat and experimentation is available. Its repetitive, but no more so than DMC or God Hand. In fact, owing to its set pieces, attention to detail, scope and plot threads, it has plenty to experience alongside the button mashing.

Now

"No. This is not what videogames are. I give God of War 2 zero stars because I do not play videogames to numb the pleasure centers of my brain. And I certainly do not pay fifty dollars for the privilege."

- You'd have to be a retard with no eyes and thumbs to award GOW2 zero stars.

- If you consider something to be a negative then it can't possibly be a "privilege."

Stupid review, please stop posting them.

[Ed Oscuro]

"No. This is not what videogames are. I give God of War 2 zero stars because I do not play videogames to numb the pleasure centers of my brain. And I certainly do not pay fifty dollars for the privilege."

- If you consider something to be a negative then it can't possibly be a "privilege."

You know what I rate zero stars? The use of worn-out pop phrases and metaphors without a second thought. Of course, I suppose if I set out to find a review we can agree with, what better than to coast along on a sugary stream of bubbly sentiments? ( sugar, not saccharine; save your time typing overcomplicated words to sound smart.)