IGF 2012 Dramafest (gamedev hipsters behaving badly)

[Udderdude]

So yeah, there's been some bigtime drama at this year's IGF awards. Basically that game FEZ won, two years in a row, despite not being released, not even being indie anymore (he has a 1 year Microsoft XBLA exclusivity contract) and also the developer of it is friends with the judges. Smells fishy .. but then it gets even more hilarisad.

The developer also publically said to a Japanese dev's face that Japanese games suck. And then told some dude to suck his dick cause he just won IGF over twitter.

Should also add the developer has never released a game before this, and FEZ has been "In development" for 4 friggin years. lol

Some delicious links

http://www.develop-online.net/news/4006 ... games-suck

http://i.imgur.com/yTHS5.jpg

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/MichaelLubke ... he_IGF.php

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03 ... s-in-full/

[Ed Oscuro]

I always thought the label "indie" was ironic. Unfortunately, it seems it's just "corporate, but without size or discipline."

Jeez, Dear Esther and Spelunky. Do they award games three games after they're released? I suppose I could give DE a pass because apparently you need to buy a new game to play it now (I remember when it was a HL or maybe Episode One mod I was putting off until they finished up with a new engine...I hope IGF has botched the description here, I'll be rather unhappy otherwise).

[louisg]

Yeah, I have to agree. I already posted on the Cave mobile thread, but yeah, a few things are really clear:

- Nothing should win two years in a row. That makes no sense.

- Why are games winning which haven't been released? Is there a "best game still in development" category?

- It's one thing to feel awesome about developing a game people enjoy. But there's nothing that says "amateur" like slamming an entire industry while simultaneously copying ideas from them. It's not only assholeish, it's also dishonest.

- 4 years is a really long time

- The soundtrack rocks

- It's none of my business that Fish enjoys receiving blow jobs from his harshest critics. I've never heard of this fetish before.

- So, does anybody remember Bob's Game?

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I always thought the label "indie" was ironic. Unfortunately, it seems it's just "corporate, but without size or discipline."

This, I originally thought the indie scene was good around 5 years back when Crayon Physics won the IGF, nowadays its more akin to a buzzword that corporate suits use. There still is an indie scene but its totally overshadowed by arrogant pricks like Fish nowadays.

No doubt MS will push Fez our faces on its shitty dashboard, like they do with every other indie they publish like Super Meatboy, Limbo etc. While every other XBLA game has to make do with sweet FA

[louisg]

A lot of times I feel like I'm living through the early 90s shareware era again I'm not totally sure why people think that independent games are a new thing. Back in my day you got really coherent games like Keen, Epic Pinball and Wolf 3d. Also, a lot of old computer games would certainly qualify as indie if they were made these days. Food for thought I suppose.

[Udderdude]

Yeah, the term "Indie" has been used and abused so much that it's essentially meaningless now. Even the fact that FEZ has offical MS sponsorship and exclusive contract, and still won the biggest "Independent game" contest (and 30,000 bucks in the process), shows just how dead the term is.

[louisg]

Yeah, the term "Indie" has been used and abused so much that it's essentially meaningless now. Even the fact that FEZ has offical MS sponsorship and exclusive contract, and still won the biggest "Independent game" contest (and 30,000 bucks in the process), shows just how dead the term is.

Yeah, wasn't it World of Goo also which had a really decent budget? I guess this whole use of the term arose because commercial games have such enormous budgets now. The games of yesteryear that we enjoy would probably all be indie now. At what point did Fez pick up sponsorship?

Speaking of indie games, I saw this at a get-together a couple days ago:
http://teknopants.blogspot.com/2011/10/ ... cient.html

People were really getting a kick out of it. One guy practiced the boss for about 15 minutes-- he just HAD to beat it! I think the video of this is in a much earlier stage of development than what I saw.

[Estebang]

Icy's definition of "indie" nailed it.

Indie
An artist who, in the secret consciousness of his inferiority, is fearful of having his work measured against that of the masters in his field, and who therefore invents this non-existent category in order to hide in it.

[Drum]

Phil Fish is a real cunt and so are people who look to icycalm for wisdom.

[GaijinPunch]

Wow... proof that the industry is truly in shambles. The only time games were indie was at the infancy of the market (up to mid-80's?). It was corporate in nature but indie in attitude. I know which one I'd rather have.

[Estebang]

Phil Fish is a real cunt and so are people who look to icycalm for wisdom.

I'm no fan of Icy, nor Ebay scammers in general. That doesn't mean I can't sometimes agree with him.

[Udderdude]

Phil Fish is a real cunt and so are people who look to icycalm for wisdom.

It's difficult to pick the actually useful information out of his usual drivel, but sometimes he actually says something genuinely insightful. Not often, though.

[GaijinPunch]

"your games just suck"

By definition, most of just about anything sucks. Most games in Japan suck... most games in the US suck... Pretty cool to use a broad sweeping brush on a public forum... especially by a Canadian? What a hoser. Canadians making fun of people from other countries? Was this conference in the bizarro world?

[Skykid]

Icy's definition of "indie" nailed it.

Indie
An artist who, in the secret consciousness of his inferiority, is fearful of having his work measured against that of the masters in his field, and who therefore invents this non-existent category in order to hide in it.

God that guy spouts some bullshit.

"In the secret consciousness of his inferiority" What?!



Someone needs to go back to the classroom.

[Udderdude]

"your games just suck"

By definition, most of just about anything sucks. Most games in Japan suck... most games in the US suck... Pretty cool to use a broad sweeping brush on a public forum... especially by a Canadian? What a hoser. Canadians making fun of people from other countries? Was this conference in the bizarro world?

I am ashamed to admit that yes, he's Canadian. At least he's all the way in Montreal .. >_>

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I was gonna mention Icy since I do think he has a point to pick about many of the backslapping indies but the message is lost in crazy vitorol and drivel

I think Icy and Fish should have a debate, they are both douches so it would be very entertaining.

[Skykid]

Sorry, Sorry...

is fearful of having his work measured against that of the masters in his field, and who therefore invents this non-existent category in order to hide in it.

If it's a category at all, how can it be 'non-existent'?

I LOVE these Icy quotes. LOVE THEM. GET ME MOAR.

[louisg]

"your games just suck"

By definition, most of just about anything sucks. Most games in Japan suck... most games in the US suck... Pretty cool to use a broad sweeping brush on a public forum... especially by a Canadian? What a hoser. Canadians making fun of people from other countries? Was this conference in the bizarro world?

It's asinine. I'm also sure he hasn't played any of the smaller Japanese productions which are every bit as quirky, puzzly, and original as anything coming out of the western indie scene. He seems ill-informed. Or maybe he isn't and he's just being a jerk because he can.

Icy's definition of "indie" nailed it.

Indie
An artist who, in the secret consciousness of his inferiority, is fearful of having his work measured against that of the masters in his field, and who therefore invents this non-existent category in order to hide in it.

I don't think that's quite accurate. Look, there's 'indie' in the sense of the local band that shows up and rocks the local coffee house. Then there's 'indie' in the sense that there's an image that's being capitalized on by large entities which have figured out that it's hip. I know actual indie game authors (besides Udder), and they are passionate and cool people who love experimenting, and completely non-douchey. They're not sponsored by companies; they just like creating. So, it does exist. This Fish guy is just off the rails with his bloated ego.

[Udderdude]

Sorry, Sorry...

is fearful of having his work measured against that of the masters in his field, and who therefore invents this non-existent category in order to hide in it.

If it's a category at all, how can it be 'non-existent'?

His wording is quite poor there, it should be 'hides in this irrelevant/inaccurate category'. Since independent can be a legitimate category, but what he claims is that the indies hide behind it in order to avoid being compared to older, better games. An example : Critic: "Super Meat Boy is mediocre trash compared to any of the 16-bit platformers that came before it". Indie: "You can't make that comparison, IT'S INDIE!"

Although he does claim independent is not a legitimate category since it's impossible to be truly independent of anything, aside from creating a new universe that you control completely. http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_ ... 54062.html

[TLB]

Just a bit of interesting info (not trying to involve myself in the discussion - only trying to provide facts where it looks like they would be useful):

English is not icycalm's first language. He is Greek. He speaks Greek natively.

[Skykid]

English is not icycalm's first language. He is Greek. He speaks Greek natively.

He should probably stick to it then, since his English is about as strong as his country's economy.

Although he does claim independent is not a legitimate category since it's impossible to be truly independent of anything, aside from creating a new universe that you control completely.

Someone should explain to him he's not a philosopher, he's an idiot. The two don't readily mix.

[Udderdude]

Although he does claim independent is not a legitimate category since it's impossible to be truly independent of anything, aside from creating a new universe that you control completely.

Someone should explain to him he's not a philosopher, he's an idiot. The two don't readily mix.

I agree that his statement on the legitimacy of independent as a category is extremely pedantic. It's a useful category despite not being 100% accurate. I think he only used that argument to give himself one more thing to throw at the indie crowd, which he seems to hate with a blinding passion more than anything else on Earth (except maybe "modern" artists, aka artist's canned shit, duchamp's toilet, etc.)

[Skykid]

Although he does claim independent is not a legitimate category since it's impossible to be truly independent of anything, aside from creating a new universe that you control completely.

Someone should explain to him he's not a philosopher, he's an idiot. The two don't readily mix.

I agree that his statement on the legitimacy of independent as a category is extremely pedantic. It's a useful category despite not being 100% accurate. I think he only used that argument to give himself one more thing to throw at the indie crowd, which he seems to hate with a blinding passion more than anything else on Earth (except maybe "modern" artists, aka artist's canned shit, duchamp's toilet, etc.)

PROTIP: People who attempt to intellectualise pointless and unimportant subject matter are pointless and unimportant people. He probably thinks he sounds like Plato, but all I hear is GAS, and the quality of his prose never fails to make one wince.

And, unless they're assheads like Phil Fish, there's nothing wrong with Indie/doujiin developers. They're the lifeblood of gaming to some degree, since they're free to create outside of the shackles of the industry. More power to them, I say.

[szycag]

I tweeted the dude (I never use twitter) when I heard about this controversy, and IGN used a bit of his response in their article about the whole thing.

me: Your game is still a glorified tech demo I surely won't buy now. Show some respect and stop overgeneralizing an entire culture.
PHIL_FISH: who's overgeneralizing now? i made a statement about modern japanese games, not their whole entire fucking culture.
me: It's trying to conform to western tastes and scope where they lose it, which is a cultural thing to me. Culture does drive art...

He's running his mouth and too arrogant to try to improve the situation. So you've had some success, be humble about it and stop telling people to suck your dick. Once people get over the perspective gimmick they're going to realize Fez is still just a platformer where you pick up shiny things, like many before it. That is when he FINALLY finishes it. Also shouldn't he owe a lot to modern japanese games like Super Paper Mario and Cave Story? Keiji Inafune makes plenty of good points about how Japan is falling behind, but he's smart enough not to speak in absolutes or crush a guy's country of origin just for asking a question.

[Udderdude]

So you've had some success, be humble about it

I just realized that if FEZ ever gets a PC port and ends up in the Humble Indie Bundle, my head will violently explode from the irony of it all.

[rancor]

me: It's trying to conform to western tastes and scope where they lose it, which is a cultural thing to me. Culture does drive art...

I think most will agree (and this has been discussed at length in another anime thread) that when they were aping western culture is when things were so awesome. The recent glut of pink haired sissy-boys who can't talk to girls is when shit goes astray.

[Skykid]

me: It's trying to conform to western tastes and scope where they lose it, which is a cultural thing to me. Culture does drive art...

I think most will agree (and this has been discussed at length in another anime thread) that when they were aping western culture is when things were so awesome. The recent glut of pink haired sissy-boys who can't talk to girls is when shit goes astray.

I always subscribed to this, yeah. They were awesome at taking a film like The Warriors and turning it into Final Fight, but that's more about drawing influence from colourful subject matter. They still got to make thoroughly Japanese games. Now they're trying to copy a type of game design that they just don't understand, and failing.

[Estebang]

Sorry, Sorry...

is fearful of having his work measured against that of the masters in his field, and who therefore invents this non-existent category in order to hide in it.

If it's a category at all, how can it be 'non-existent'?

You've stumbled upon the exact point he's trying to make, good sir.

PROTIP: People who attempt to intellectualise pointless and unimportant subject matter are pointless and unimportant people.

Then you should stay the hell away from the "indie" community, because their favorite pastime is debating if games are art.

Pointing out your lack of interest in an argument does not invalidate said argument. Not to mention that this stuff involves the careers of thousands of people.

PROTIP: The only true "indie" devs are people like Daisuke Amaya, Locomalito and Konjak who make games all by their lonesome in their bedroom. I've got no beef with these people, and have enjoyed some of their games. The problem is that Braid, Fez, Flower, Super Meat Boy, Limbo, Bastion, and Journey are all being held up as defining examples of the "indie" "genre" (yeah, Steam classifies it as a genre now), when most of them had development teams of over a hundred people and all had considerable corporate backing. It's complete lying, deceptive BS, and they know it. But it's cool to seem like you're the underdog, and it sells.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Glad you mentioned Konjak, that dude needs a break considering all the great games he makes. He always enters into IGF but he must be not hip enough to win with his traditional japanese gameplay.

[louisg]

The only true "indie" devs are people like Daisuke Amaya, Locomalito and Konjak who make games all by their lonesome in their bedroom. I've got no beef with these people, and have enjoyed some of their games. The problem is that Braid, Fez, Flower, Super Meat Boy, Limbo, Bastion, Journey are all being held up as defining examples of the "indie" "genre" (yeah, Steam classifies it as a genre now), when most of them had development teams of over a hundred people and considerable corporate backing. It's complete lying, deceptive BS, and they know it. But it's cool to seem like you're the underdog, and it sells.

Companies that aim their products at teenagers often try to make it look as if the band/game/whatever in question is part of a grassroots movement. The message is "you're being individualistic by buying this, unlike all your stupid friends who are hooked on mass-marketed bullshit, maaaaaan". It's really cynical.

There are *lots* of true indie devs still. They're often low profile; that's because they're indie