Cave to talk at GDC 2012

[Deca]

I'll give them credit for publishing Senko and Shutokou Battle X, but have they ever actually developed anything worthwhile? Sincere question, I may be forgetting something big honestly.

[louisg]

UPDATE:



Just fucking go to hell already, Fish. Still willing to defend the man, bcass?

I have trouble dissing Fez because a really cool guy did the music. But I'll say this: When saying recent Japanese games suck, try not ripping recent Japanese games off while taking 4 years to develop your devoid-of-enemies platformer. But the controls at least feel pretty good, which is more than I can say for a lot of other popular indie platforming efforts. And the graphics are attractive.

To be honest, if I'd developed Fez, I'd be very proud of it. Creating games is a surprising amount of hard work, and I recognize that. But it wouldn't turn me into a douchenozzle.

[bcass]

I'll give them credit for publishing Senko and Shutokou Battle X, but have they ever actually developed anything worthwhile? Sincere question, I may be forgetting something big honestly.

Most recent would be the new Rayman Origins game, if you're into old school platforming.

[Estebang]

Here we go, multiquote Gamefaqs argument time:

Programmers have big egos

Can't remember the last time Ikeda or Yagawa boasted about their blow-'n-hookers habit. Not saying it didn't happen, though.

Total bollocks. You control a little character that works its way up a series of rotating towers. The first instance of which was Nebulus in 1987. I'm not saying he copied Nebulus, I'm just stating how similar the idea is.

You're equating superficial similarities in the game's basic premises with a meaningful comparison of how they actually play. Fez is an easygoing, penalty-free puzzle game that's primarily concerned with showing off a gimmick (which Echochrome has already used). Nebulus is a brutal action-platform memorizer with limited controls, devious traps, and a shmup bonus stage. It means very little that they both involve climbing something.

Now you're just being idiotic. Only someone truly pig ignorant would come to this conclusion before actually having played the game.

Man, I wish you were actually right here, because this is the case with any good game, and even a lot of bad ones. It is already known that you have unlimited lives in Fez, and dying simply respawns you right near where you were. Of course, the puzzles are supposed to provide the difficulty in this sort of game, but with zero pressure and a central mechanic that lets you discover the solution by simply fiddling with the camera for long enough, it's not going to be there.

Yet more spectacular, entirely predictable ignorance. Fish used to work at Ubisoft. He's probably forgotten more about game development that you'll ever know.

You've got me here--I didn't know he worked for Ubisoft. However, this is the first project with him leading development, and the first that's allowed him to gain any sort of recognition.

Of course he knows more about the nuts and bolts of programming than I do. I'm not disputing that, and it's not important to this argument. What I'm absolutely convinced of is that I, and a whole lot of other people on this forum, are much better authorities as to what constitutes good design.

He doesn't need me to defend him. To be quite frank I've seen you act like just as much a dick on this forum.

I'm not running for public office, nor do I have a console game in multi-year development with Microsoft on board. Pretty sure this thread is the first time I've outright insulted anyone (Fish) here, too.

[bcass]

You're equating superficial similarities in the game's basic premises with a meaningful comparison of how they actually play.

Errm, no I'm not. I simply stated that they were similar, which anyone with half a brain can see they are. In both games you control a character who ascends a rotating tower using platforms. That's not an opinion, it's irrefutable fact.

You've done nothing to displace your looking slightly silly by judging a game before you've even played it. Not that you'd ever admit to liking it now that you've so publically judged it before it's even been released. There are plenty of games where there's little or no threat that are great games, unless you're blinkered enough to think that Cave are the only people who make games worth playing.

[alastair jack]

Most recent would be the new Rayman Origins game, if you're into old school platforming.

The background graphics are some of the best I've seen in a platformer, but the character and level design are terrible.

[Estebang]

There are plenty of games where there's little or no threat that are great games, unless you're blinkered enough to think that Cave are the only people who make games worth playing.

Good games with few threats? Sure. Super Mario 64 is a great game. ICO is a great game. Zelda: Wind Waker is a great game. The thing is, all those games do still have considerable margins for error with tangible penalties attached. However miniscule, there's always some fear of screwing up and having to retry a long segment. There's some motivation other than eye candy to keep pushing forward and improve one's skills.

Now, good games with NO threats? Discounting adventure games and visual novels (which must be approached more like books), absolutely not. I do not play games simply to dick around in a virtual space, weakly stimulating the pleasure neurons of my brain while awaiting the next unseen image or scrap of text.

Fez's chances at being a good game were dead on arrival the instant Fish finished coding in the infinite nearby respawn mechanics.

[spadgy]

I've just got back from an insanely long day at GDC, and I'm glad to see you guys have some taste in where to go for games news! The link Estebang posted about Phil Fish is from Develop, and the VG24/7 story about Inafune is based on and links to my story on Develop. I'm editor of Develop, so you've placated my needy ego plenty! Thanks guys!

So, I attended the Cave/Mikio Watanabe (Cave's COO) talk, and thanks to technically hiccups on the translation front, and the fact it was mostly about the mechanics of Japanese virtual card games and figures about GREE and Mobage, there wasn't too much in it.

However, I learned this about Cave's porting-to-iOS dev budgets:

A straight port costs $100,000 to $150,000.

A special reworked or HD port (so like Espgaluda II) costs about $250,000.

That money is divided like this:

40% on engineering and programming
30% on graphics and design
15% on localisation, QA and testing
15% on audio

Charging us customers a high price on iOS works best to recoup that money. Dropping the price later on in offers helped little with sales.

Accurate porting is Cave's first concern with iOS; after that it's reworking controls. They will never change the graphics much for iOs ports, because it upsets us fans; apparently we respond most negatively to poorly ported framerates. A misunderstanding of the conventions of shmups stops them succeeding a huge amount with wider audiences. I fear there was a hint of considering in-game purchases; it wasn't at all clear though. He did say the money in straight up full-product downloads wouldn't last. Cave is also noticing a huge demand for retro experiences on Android devices. His main message was that there s an oppotunity for Western developers in releasing their games in Japan.

Mikio Watanabe also said" "I'll fight Phil Fish man-on-man down on the San Francisco docks right now; no weapons, no gloves."

That last bit isn't true. He did, however, admit to spending $700 personally on trying to collect rare digital cards for a Japanese mobile phone card game. He rolled his eyes as he admitted he failed to get all the cards even at that point.

Oh, and back to my glorious ego and the whole East vs. West thing: here's the original story what I wrote about Inafune that VG247 picked up (I didn't realise they had until visiting this thread. VG247 are very good with respecting linking to original sources; thanks chaps!)

[Ghegs]

I do not play games simply to dick around in a virtual space

Keypoint highlighted. Do try to remember that people play games for all sorts of reasons - some for the challenge, some for the story, some for the "experience", some to just waste time. Saying a game is bad because it doesn't appeal to you when you're not even in the target audience is rather pointless. Our way to play games is not the only way, grasshopper.

[pentarou]

So, I attended the Cave/Mikio Watanabe (Cave's COO) talk, and thanks to technically hiccups on the translation front, and the fact it was mostly about the mechanics of Japanese virtual card games and figures about GREE and Mobage, there wasn't too much in it.

However, I learned this about Cave's porting-to-iOS dev budgets:

A straight port costs $100,000 to $150,000.

A special reworked or HD port (so like Espgaluda II) costs about $250,000.

That money is divided like this:

40% on engineering and programming
30% on graphics and design
15% on localisation, QA and testing
15% on audio

Charging us customers a high price on iOS works best to recoup that money. Dropping the price later on in offers helped little with sales.

Thanks for the info.

Although it's probably not a true indication of number of customers, here are the numbers on the leaderboards for their games on the lowest difficulties:

Mushihime - Total stage score - 14,559
Bug Panic - Adventure Mode Total - 37,242
Dodonpachi DOJ - Type-A Shotia - 15,592
Dodonpachi DFK - Type-A iPhone - 47,752
Deathsmiles - Tiara Novice - 25,256
Espgaluda II - Asagi iPhone mode - 28,287
Espgaluda II HD - Asagi SP mode - 2,884

Thoughts (disclaimer: i don't know anything about marketing)

* DFK was on sale a few times, and featured on the App Store's front page numerous times.
* MBP was on sale for $0.99 at least once.
* Esp II has been on the App Store's list of Hardcore Games along with DFK since ... forever
* Esp II HD was briefly on the front page of the App Store, I think. Mushi was on for a little bit; DOJ was on for a much shorter time.
* Esp II HD numbers are dangerously low--wonder how much more it cost Cave to transition from the original iPhone port.
* I didn't pick up the Esp II HD split games, so no idea about their customer base. I'll bet it's tiny though.
* I suppose Cave is counting on core players to provide their income at full prices.
* Unfortunately I'm also somewhat concerned that they're quickly oversaturating the market. DOJ came out way too soon after Mushi.

I think publishing a quality port with new features (iPhone mode) with an accessible (for international players) difficulty level at a competitive (for the iOS market) price is probably what gets them on the front pages of the App Store. DFK's price never dropped below $5-ish, so with those numbers it's probably their most profitable iOS port to date, not counting any Android sales.

I strongly suspect that sales dropping the price to $5+ (i.e. since the appreciation of the yen) don't bring in any new customers - instead they bring in core customers who are waiting for a sale. Sub-$5, on the other hand, is impulse buy territory. But splitting arcade/smartphone mode like they did with Esp II HD isn't going to bring in any impulse buyers -- Apple will feature the full game on the front page, not the split games.

That last bit isn't true. He did, however, admit to spending $700 personally on trying to collect rare digital cards for a Japanese mobile phone card game. He rolled his eyes as he admitted he failed to get all the cards even at that point.

I suppose this explains why they're focusing so much on their social gaming branch. ...Is this the same guy from Cave whose hobbies included horse racing (leading to that disaster of a Facebook game)?

[TrevHead (TVR)]

. Our way to play games is not the only way, grasshopper.

This is one of the things that I find annoying that many ppl think the only games they play are the only games that should be allowed. Atm there is a very diverse amount of games out there, sure many niche genres are indies or handhelds but there is generally something for everybody, you just need to know it exists which is half the battle imo.

Imo its not so much niche genres that worries me about gaming in the future, its the growing monetisation of everything that scares me, especially the growing trend of free to play where the hardcore power players have to pay through the nose and fund the game.

[pbsk8]

Is the video available in any place for streaming or download?

I am not a member from GDC Archive.

[spadgy]

I do have GDC Archive access. I'll take a look.

EDIT: It's called GDC Vault, and the Cave talk is on there in video form. An Audio only option is also available, as are Mikio Watanabe's slides as a download.

Tough one - I'd love to share them with you guys, but as I know the GDC team personally and professionally, and it's to do with my work (and GDC Vault access costs $495! Press scum like me are lucky enough to get it free.), I'm not sure I should be sharing the stuff. I could see if I could get permission to look elsewhere.

EDIT 2: The talk was called 'Retro and Japanese Social Games on Smartphones'. I don't know, but perhaps it is out there elsewhere.

Oh - and it's through translation, so delivered all out of sync!