I wasn't saying that watching videos was a bad idea. Those superplay videos can give players great clues on how to do it right, within their own level of skill. I just think that trying to follow every exact movement is a bad idea, especially for beginners who need to learn how to dodge stuff a bit more organically. If they're following every single move, it'll be harder for them to understand exactly why it was advantageous. No other movements or routes for comparison in that case.Gus wrote:I disagree. While superplays generally do feature scoring tricks that are way beyond most people's skill level they also tend to feature a lot of tricks to get past the seemingly difficult sections and give a general idea of the route to follow for the game.finisherr wrote:Obscura, I totally agree. I have some some tips that I posted in the Strategy section not too long ago. They outline some lessons I've learned regarding general gameplay in bullet hell/cave titles. Watching videos can give you some ideas, but by no means follow it strictly. That won't help you learn how to dodge in the way that is best suited to your skill level.
As for the replay Obscura linked no offense to the guy who made but it's pretty horrible. The guy makes no effort to score and clearly has no idea how handle some parts that are really pretty easy if you know what you're doing. I thought it was common sense to stick to replays by people who had an idea how to play but I guess not. This replay isn't as good as the one on the top of the Xbox Live leaderboards but it's still way better than the one previously linked to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K06jfH_O ... re=related
Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Yeah, I think it's important to both understand where you need to be in order to survive as well as develop the skills to improvise if for some reason you mess up and aren't in position, etc. Relying on other people's strategies all the time too also makes it hard to develop your own for scoring and such (although there are some sections in games that definitely have a handful of ideal ways of surviving them). It also probably depends on shot type - some people might have an easier time getting through the game with Reco Normal for instance because they have more trouble with the stages than bosses.If they're following every single move, it'll be harder for them to understand exactly why it was advantageous.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
The idea isn't to sit and re-enact a replay move for move, because you'll not learn anything from doing so, and likely it'll lead to frustration as the difference in motor skills and coordination between the superplayer and the person watching the video may be huge. The idea is to look at ideas used in the demonstrated movements and strategies, understand what makes them successful, and come up with movements better suited to your own level of play that utilise your new knowledge.finisherr wrote:I wasn't saying that watching videos was a bad idea. Those superplay videos can give players great clues on how to do it right, within their own level of skill. I just think that trying to follow every exact movement is a bad idea, especially for beginners who need to learn how to dodge stuff a bit more organically. If they're following every single move, it'll be harder for them to understand exactly why it was advantageous. No other movements or routes for comparison in that case.
Example:
A while ago, Japanese player KTR posted a Crimzon Clover Unlimited Mode st1 replay that I found quite impressive. But the boss strategy I noted was quite tricky to nail down, because while being the correct scoring method, due to a lot of high risk movements it made fighting the boss inconsistent. Recently I picked up Crimzon Clover Unlimited Mode for a bit of casual fun, and cooked up this alternate safer method of fighting the first boss in my first night of play, after an hour of experimenting. It takes the basic pattern I use in Original and modifies it for safety play.
Practice doesn't have to resemble work, if you have a goal in mind, and develop enough experience and basic skills whenever you can. Knowledge mounts up over time, and is invaluable in learning new games. It's a little like learning a musical instrument, really - basic skill building, repetition to build muscle memory, focused practice, exposure to a variety of styles to build familiarity and experience.
Finally, natural skill doesn't always account for everything. While I have no doubt that there are players naturally gifted in spatial awareness, lightning reflexes, superior motor control and coordination, and the creativity required to devise some of the weirder strategies in games, many of the necessary skills I personally have I've developed over 15+ years of occasional gaming - I'll be the first to admit that I have a low amount of natural talent for games like this. Everything I can do in these games comes from years of experience.

Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
One thing to keep in mind is that the better the replay, the better understanding the player likely has of the game and the things done are probably better planned. Therefore the methods for hard parts might actually be lot easier than ones used in worse replays since nobody wants to take unnecessary risks.
This of course stops working when there are difficult scoring tricks involved, but it should be easy to spot those and notice when they're too hard for you to copy. It's a good idea to compare replays of different level.
This of course stops working when there are difficult scoring tricks involved, but it should be easy to spot those and notice when they're too hard for you to copy. It's a good idea to compare replays of different level.
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TrevHead (TVR)
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Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Great thread chaps, with some very insightful discussion.
Speaking from personal experience I think much of the problem comes with just how complex many CAVEs scoring mechanics are. Generally the games I tend to really enjoy playing for score are the ones I can fully understand the game mechanics, ie games that have a primary score mechanic but has other ways of scoring that are secondary that I can ignore when first starting out and gradually learn and discover as I go on. CAVE shmups on the over hand are often have multiple primary scoring mechanics that are both complex to grasp and work out the best routes. Often ill watch replays and dont have a clue whats happening and just leaves me totally confused. And then theres often hidden mechanics that stop me from emulating the what I see in the replay.
I suppose most guys who are seasoned scoreplayers still have to work hard at playing but your experience allows you to more easily understand what you see in a replay and discover hidden mechanics.
For example today ive been trying to emulate stage 1 of the best DFK 1.5 strong replay (PAL). I spent maybe 2-3 hours wondering why I couldnt quickly charge my hyper at the top of the screen, I originally thought it was just that I wasnt pixel perfect and wasnt hitting the hitboxes of the offscreen enemies. Although I was successful in my attempts occasionally I didnt know why at the time. My guess is that many of you guys would of quickly known there was a hidden mechanic that was stopping you from been successful (in this case something about aura hyper charging), and wouldnt have wasted anywhere near the same length of time as I did.
Speaking from personal experience I think much of the problem comes with just how complex many CAVEs scoring mechanics are. Generally the games I tend to really enjoy playing for score are the ones I can fully understand the game mechanics, ie games that have a primary score mechanic but has other ways of scoring that are secondary that I can ignore when first starting out and gradually learn and discover as I go on. CAVE shmups on the over hand are often have multiple primary scoring mechanics that are both complex to grasp and work out the best routes. Often ill watch replays and dont have a clue whats happening and just leaves me totally confused. And then theres often hidden mechanics that stop me from emulating the what I see in the replay.
I suppose most guys who are seasoned scoreplayers still have to work hard at playing but your experience allows you to more easily understand what you see in a replay and discover hidden mechanics.
For example today ive been trying to emulate stage 1 of the best DFK 1.5 strong replay (PAL). I spent maybe 2-3 hours wondering why I couldnt quickly charge my hyper at the top of the screen, I originally thought it was just that I wasnt pixel perfect and wasnt hitting the hitboxes of the offscreen enemies. Although I was successful in my attempts occasionally I didnt know why at the time. My guess is that many of you guys would of quickly known there was a hidden mechanic that was stopping you from been successful (in this case something about aura hyper charging), and wouldnt have wasted anywhere near the same length of time as I did.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I always make it a point to understand any and all required systems first before taking the game apart. The first few sessions I spend with a game are to that end, then once I have a decent grasp of the game's underlying mechanics, I use any relevant knowledge and experience gained in the past in devising strategies throughout the game.TrevHead (TVR) wrote:I suppose most guys who are seasoned scoreplayers still have to work hard at playing but your experience allows you to more easily understand what you see in a replay and discover hidden mechanics.
Case in point: I had heard of Gridrunner in the past, but in honesty never played it in my life. After picking up the iOS version and playing it for an hour, I noted that it is a fairly simple old-school gameplay system that is pinned down to a modern variant of a randomised power-up system. I figured that chaining powerups them together would be a good idea to increase their longevity, and to do that on most grids, you have to quickly run through centipede formations - Dangun Feveron style speedkilling, essentially. And since some grids are likely to spew a ton of powerups, including the useful invincibility powerup, taking one and using it to plow through enemies Psyvariar-style would be a useful tactic to employ. Knowing which grids were safe to bulldoze through, and which grids required a conservative approach, is knowledge gained from focused, observant practice.
Just taking this basic knowledge from other games and applying it to a new system saw my score jump from an initial 80k+ score to Grid 16 to a 600k+ score to Grid 57, and currently #1 on GameCenter. I'm quite certain that there are one or two things I'm not familiar with - like how to generate powerups from centipede lines, if it's at all possible - but for the rest of the game's mechanics, I think I know enough to be able to manipulate them my way.
As I mentioned before, developing a good store of knowledge helps you speed up the learning process. If you're familiar with how one basic system plays, its likely that other games that have similar mechanics will be played in the same manner.

Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
watCagar wrote:just like DOJ stage 3 and 4 are way harder than stage 5
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
^ What he said.RNGmaster wrote:watCagar wrote:just like DOJ stage 3 and 4 are way harder than stage 5

Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Sorry, but I have a pretty much impossible time believing this. I've spent weeks trying to improve in three games (Futari, Espgaluda, Crimzon Clover), and in all three, I've completely hit a wall that I can't consistently deal with no matter how much I practice (pillbugs for Futari, stage 2 boss for Galuda [yes, really], stage 3 flowers for Clover). If you're not gifted with the ability to quickly figure out how bullets are going to move, there's a wall that's pretty much impenetrable.Icarus wrote:I'll be the first to admit that I have a low amount of natural talent for games like this. Everything I can do in these games comes from years of experience.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I wouldn't let slow progress discourage you. I've had Futari for a while and for ages the woodlouse section in Stage 3 was pretty much an OHSHITBOMB section. It's only very recently I suddenly had something of an epiphany that it's actually quite easy and can now get through it without much difficulty on Original. Sometimes a game can be very difficult until suddenly a tricky section just 'clicks' for you and you realize that's how you get it done.
How many bombs does it take you to reach the spider boss in Stage 3 without dying (assuming you just drop a bomb on the woodlouses when you're about to be hit)? I'm sure if you work hard and get good enough at Stage 4 and 5 you could probably manage a 1cc even with a suboptimal Stage 3 performance. Stage 4 isn't too much trickier as long as you're comfortable with streaming and a bit of weaving between shots.
How many bombs does it take you to reach the spider boss in Stage 3 without dying (assuming you just drop a bomb on the woodlouses when you're about to be hit)? I'm sure if you work hard and get good enough at Stage 4 and 5 you could probably manage a 1cc even with a suboptimal Stage 3 performance. Stage 4 isn't too much trickier as long as you're comfortable with streaming and a bit of weaving between shots.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
But you learn how the bullets move with practice and variety. A lot of shmups, bullet hell or otherwise, tend to repeat similar bullet patterns and structures over and over, so you sort a feel for them over time. Eventually you'll start to see through patterns much faster, because they're not as new as they seem, if you get my meaning.Obscura wrote:If you're not gifted with the ability to quickly figure out how bullets are going to move, there's a wall that's pretty much impenetrable.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I've never once made it to the stage 3 boss (I thought it was a tick?) without dying.BareknuckleRoo wrote:I wouldn't let slow progress discourage you. I've had Futari for a while and for ages the woodlouse section in Stage 3 was pretty much an OHSHITBOMB section. It's only very recently I suddenly had something of an epiphany that it's actually quite easy and can now get through it without much difficulty on Original. Sometimes a game can be very difficult until suddenly a tricky section just 'clicks' for you and you realize that's how you get it done.
How many bombs does it take you to reach the spider boss in Stage 3 without dying (assuming you just drop a bomb on the woodlouses when you're about to be hit)? I'm sure if you work hard and get good enough at Stage 4 and 5 you could probably manage a 1cc even with a suboptimal Stage 3 performance. Stage 4 isn't too much trickier as long as you're comfortable with streaming and a bit of weaving between shots.
I did two runs just now, with Normal Reco (usually I play Palm, but I've been trying Reco tonight, since it seems that every good run on Youtube uses her, so it'll be easier to find good examples):
Run 1: Stage 1 NMNB, Stage 2 NM2B (I always bomb the boss's second form, and I fucked up on the second Sting Ray and had to bomb my way out), Stage 3 died twice to the miniboss, once to a pink bullet from a ladybug shortly afterwards, and then to a woodlouse after the second giant beetle on the left.
Run 2: Stage 1 NMNB, Stage 2 NM1B (boss's second form), Stage 3 ran into a pink bullet from a ladybug in the first half, right after the first beetle, bombed once against the miniboss (not used to the last attack since with Abnormal Palm, it dies before it gets a chance to use it), bombed twice in the pillbug section, lost remaining lives to tick.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Work on beating it reliably without a bomb. I sometimes die to the second form's attack where it fires those round purple ball spreads (after the waves of bullets it fires alternatingly from each arm). They appear to be aimed at you so you could tap dodge it, but it can get a tad hectic if you're moving when it fires (while dodging the previous bullets). I find hiding in the corner right before it uses it helps make gaps, but yeah, try to work at this. Every bomb helps.Obscura wrote:Stage 2 NM2B (I always bomb the boss's second form, and I fucked up on the second Sting Ray and had to bomb my way out)
The miniboss is arguably the easiest part of the level; hide at the bottom for the fight and just find your way through the gaps as you chase it across the screen for the first attack. Second is just slower purple ball walls combined with wider and wider spreads, just keep dodging the central bullet of each spread and you shouldn't get hit by the purple balls on the sides. Last attack is easiest - converging bullets on the sides as it fires aimed lines of shots. Just tap dodge left or right when the lines approach; even weaker shottypes will kill it before the shots on the side converge on the middle of the screen if you did enough damage during the first two attacks.Stage 3 died twice to the miniboss
I always thought it was another spider because it had eight legs. I didn't know ticks were arachnids, learn something new every day.(I thought it was a tick?)

Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Tipz:Obscura wrote:Sorry, but I have a pretty much impossible time believing this. I've spent weeks trying to improve in three games (Futari, Espgaluda, Crimzon Clover), and in all three, I've completely hit a wall that I can't consistently deal with no matter how much I practice (pillbugs for Futari, stage 2 boss for Galuda [yes, really], stage 3 flowers for Clover). If you're not gifted with the ability to quickly figure out how bullets are going to move, there's a wall that's pretty much impenetrable.
1) Don't spread yourself too thin
If you're learning too many games at once, you're going to get crossed wires and slower development. Pick a game you really like, and learn it, forsaking all others. Keep a game, shooting or otherwise, for when you want a change of pace. You'll find your improvements ramping up this way.
This also applies to the game itself - whenever you play something for the first time, you're always going to be overwhelmed by information overload. On the very first plays, I only look to understand the systems underneath, and maybe to identify particularly hard (to my level of skill) sections that may need to be revisited. For novices and intermediates, trying to take in too much at once will slow development.
2) Focus practice
If you know your problem areas, spend a bit of time in stage select mode or save states devising a way past them. You don't have to spend hours doing it, but even a few attempts here and there at experimenting your way to a solution gets the compass pointing in the right direction. If you do eventually find a way past, don't immediately jump into a full run with it, practice it a little bit to nail it down, then work it into a full game gradually.
3) Take the programmer's approach
If you think of a game as less of a game, and rather a block of code that, if handled robotically, will execute in the same way about 90-95% of the time (allowling for micro-variance in positioning, firing rate, collection etc), you can apply the theory to everything in the game. For example: bullet patterns tend to have an underlying logic to the madness that falls into the primary categories of aimed, static directional (fixed), and semi-homing. Other attributes are then applied to the pattern - scatter, repeat, angle variance etc - that can be somewhat easily discerned with a bit of observation. Stage structures tend to be static, with most medium and large enemies appearing at set times in set locations - very few games (such as Raiden) randomise the location of small enemies.
Knowing things like this, you can break down seemingly difficult segments of games into easier to digest parts. Having difficulty with the woodlouse in Futari 1.5 st3? Learn their positions, they always appear in the same locations at the same times. Having difficulty with a bullet pattern, eg Futari 1.5 st2boss 2F? The first two of the three identifiable patterns are aimed, and the variance is always caused by changes in your position, so if you have a very specific movement routine, the pattern will always fire in a recognisable manner. By the way, I use this movement pattern and it works almost all of the time (for me, YMMV).

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DrTrouserPlank
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Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
If we are talking about the spray of purple bullets on the second form of that 2nd boss? If you manage to get yourself in line with either the 2nd or 3rd bomb slot on the right before it spays the pattern, it is much easier to dodge. In fact you don't have to dodge it because you'll get a safe spot through the pattern where nothing hits you.
To go "full-Plank" - colloquial - To experience disproportionate levels of frustration as a result of resistance to completing a task. Those who go "full-Plank" very rarely recover.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I wonder if those complaining they'd spent days/months/weeks trying to improve are the same people who say they don't have enough time to become better.
In any case, TLB/m3tall1ca's righteous quest for setting people straight has fallen short thanks to, well, concentrating more on the quest and less on its goals, which he had not achieved. Not having a good score in Futari didn't help. I also made it to stage 5 within the first couple tries, but had to spent hours to get back there when I learned how to score. It's also pretty hilarious that, of all people, it's DTP who's started posting genuinely helpful and correct information in this thread. You guys should be ashamed.
See, the game becomes more difficult as you score better, which is why, generally, stage 5 will always be harder than stage 3. The likely reason why most people perceive stage 3 to be harder is because that's the place where they start getting hit, and they don't expect that having no-missed/no-bombed the first two stages (a no-miss is an additional rank modifier). On the other hand, getting hit on stage 5 doesn't seem so out of place because it's the final stage and it has lots of enemies. Dying further in the game also decreases rank by a significant amount, so a lot of pressure is relieved that way. In a no-miss scenario, stage 5 is always harder than stage 4, and stage 4 is always harder than stage 3. The irregularity is brought to life by players themselves.
Going back to personal experiences and devoting time, it's some basic getting-things-done practice. At some point I was tired ending my credits on stages 4 and 5, so I decided to learn and practice stages and bosses separately, finding safer routes. I spent probably 4-6 hours doing that. Within the next couple hours I had my clear with Palm, then with Reco. I repeated the same process with Maniac, and cleared both BL and 1.5 Maniac without spending too much time. In fact, with that kind of practice in place, it felt inevitable. When I get my motivation back I'm going to repeat that with God mode as well, since a random credit played a few months ago had revealed I could get to stage 5 without much trouble at all.
STGT practice is very similar to this, which is why the scores I set during the tourneys are very hard for me to repeat casually. The difference there is that I spend so much time within a week, focused on the same game, pressed by self-imposed obligation to push my team further, that I burn myself out and abandon the game immediate afterwards, not touching it for months and even years. Most of those games I don't even want to become good at, nor those are the ones I choose to devote time to, hence the trouble of getting back into it. Futari, on the other hand, is my favorite game which I do want to become better at, and that's where the motivation comes from.
In any case, TLB/m3tall1ca's righteous quest for setting people straight has fallen short thanks to, well, concentrating more on the quest and less on its goals, which he had not achieved. Not having a good score in Futari didn't help. I also made it to stage 5 within the first couple tries, but had to spent hours to get back there when I learned how to score. It's also pretty hilarious that, of all people, it's DTP who's started posting genuinely helpful and correct information in this thread. You guys should be ashamed.
See, the game becomes more difficult as you score better, which is why, generally, stage 5 will always be harder than stage 3. The likely reason why most people perceive stage 3 to be harder is because that's the place where they start getting hit, and they don't expect that having no-missed/no-bombed the first two stages (a no-miss is an additional rank modifier). On the other hand, getting hit on stage 5 doesn't seem so out of place because it's the final stage and it has lots of enemies. Dying further in the game also decreases rank by a significant amount, so a lot of pressure is relieved that way. In a no-miss scenario, stage 5 is always harder than stage 4, and stage 4 is always harder than stage 3. The irregularity is brought to life by players themselves.
Going back to personal experiences and devoting time, it's some basic getting-things-done practice. At some point I was tired ending my credits on stages 4 and 5, so I decided to learn and practice stages and bosses separately, finding safer routes. I spent probably 4-6 hours doing that. Within the next couple hours I had my clear with Palm, then with Reco. I repeated the same process with Maniac, and cleared both BL and 1.5 Maniac without spending too much time. In fact, with that kind of practice in place, it felt inevitable. When I get my motivation back I'm going to repeat that with God mode as well, since a random credit played a few months ago had revealed I could get to stage 5 without much trouble at all.
STGT practice is very similar to this, which is why the scores I set during the tourneys are very hard for me to repeat casually. The difference there is that I spend so much time within a week, focused on the same game, pressed by self-imposed obligation to push my team further, that I burn myself out and abandon the game immediate afterwards, not touching it for months and even years. Most of those games I don't even want to become good at, nor those are the ones I choose to devote time to, hence the trouble of getting back into it. Futari, on the other hand, is my favorite game which I do want to become better at, and that's where the motivation comes from.

Matskat wrote:This neighborhood USED to be nice...until that family of emulators moved in across the street....
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I don't believe anyone is born with that (if someone believes he is, I'd like to hear). Being able to "read" the game is an essential shmup skill but it's something that will develop only with time. Things like previous video game experience will help, but eventually it's just about playing a lot. Weeks is not a long time in terms of developing basic skills.Obscura wrote:If you're not gifted with the ability to quickly figure out how bullets are going to move, there's a wall that's pretty much impenetrable.
The bright side of this is that the better those basic skills get, the quicker you are able to learn new games from scratch.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
If savestates and level select aren't available in a game, should I just abandon it? I hate to just shitcan Futari after spending so many hours on it...Icarus wrote:2) Focus practice
If you know your problem areas, spend a bit of time in stage select mode or save states devising a way past them. You don't have to spend hours doing it, but even a few attempts here and there at experimenting your way to a solution gets the compass pointing in the right direction. If you do eventually find a way past, don't immediately jump into a full run with it, practice it a little bit to nail it down, then work it into a full game gradually.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Credit feed and pay special attention to problem areas if you REALLY want to play it. It's obviously going to be slow as hell compared to save states/stage select, but if you're making sure you learn SOMETHING during each run, then you'll at least make some progress.
<trap15> I only pick high quality games
<trap15> I'm just pulling shit out of my ass tbh

<trap15> I'm just pulling shit out of my ass tbh

Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
If there's one thing i don't understand it's the preconceived notion that you have to put a lot of time into the games in order to get better.
Focused practice =/= dozens of hours.
At the height of my own guitar playing i practiced about 2 hours a day and steadily got better.
Knowing what to do is better than putting large amounts of unfocused hours into it.
I would say the same principle is applicable to shmups.
I don't think i would be able to practice more than 2 hours at a time at the most.
Focused practice =/= dozens of hours.
At the height of my own guitar playing i practiced about 2 hours a day and steadily got better.
Knowing what to do is better than putting large amounts of unfocused hours into it.
I would say the same principle is applicable to shmups.
I don't think i would be able to practice more than 2 hours at a time at the most.
moozooh wrote:I think that approach won't get you far in Garegga.


Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Wow. I never knew that. This thread drops another gemmoozooh wrote:a no-miss is an additional rank modifier

This is the most I've enjoyed following a shmups thread in a long time.
First for the slapstick comedy from the forum's most renowned gobshite and subsequently some very informative posts from the guys that can actually walk the walk.
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DrTrouserPlank
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Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Nice....JOW wrote:Wow. I never knew that. This thread drops another gemmoozooh wrote:a no-miss is an additional rank modifier![]()
This is the most I've enjoyed following a shmups thread in a long time.
First for the slapstick comedy from the forum's most renowned gobshite and subsequently some very informative posts from the guys that can actually walk the walk.

To go "full-Plank" - colloquial - To experience disproportionate levels of frustration as a result of resistance to completing a task. Those who go "full-Plank" very rarely recover.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Use something else in your arsenal of resources, then: extra credits. Credit-feeding as a practice method is another good, albeit slower, way to learn stages and bosses.Obscura wrote:If savestates and level select aren't available in a game, should I just abandon it? I hate to just shitcan Futari after spending so many hours on it...
If you're serious about making an improvement, no matter how small, never waste a session. Like all things in life, learning something - no matter how small it may seem in the grand scheme of things - is better than knowing nothing at all. If your credit goes tits-up, shove another one in and continue onward - since you're freed from the burden of achieving a high score, you can play more relaxed, you can focus on observation rather than aiming for a high score spot, and you can look to experiment with new tricks and strategies. Credit-feeding also allows you to see later stages a lot sooner, and to start committing things from them into memory, such as layouts, bullet patterns, and key/challenging areas.
And to reiterate, playing in a focused, efficient manner isn't hard work. All the knowledge you start to accumulate builds up over time, and makes learning new games so much easier and quicker. And in my case, I have fun tearing games apart and seeing what makes them tick. Nowadays I play quite casually, and usually only an hour or two at a time every few days (if that), but I have so much knowledge built up, learning a new game takes days rather than months, I can achieve a high level of play in a short period of time, and I can quickly get back up to speed on old favorites, even if several months have passed since the last time I played them.
Experience counts for a lot more than people think in this genre.

Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I'm using Slowpoke Mame and save states do have some limited functionality. You can use save states as long as you only load them when you've naturally progressed to that stage. For example, if you want to practice the woodtick area on stage 3, first get there normally and create a save state directly after the midboss. As long as you make it a point NOT to go to the next stage you can keep on loading the save state from that point with minimal problems. At least, this worked with Mushihime sama. The problems with doing this are:Obscura wrote:Training mode isn't an option, since I'm playing it via MAME (which doesn't support savestates for SH-3 games).finisherr wrote:1. Use Palm. He's fast so he can take those ball dudes out pretty quickly before it gets really dense.Obscura wrote:Well, after reading the thread, I was inspired to give Futari a few go's tonight.
5 credits, 5 failures to make it past the second half of stage 3. I have no idea how I'm supposed to be aggressive when I'm trapped between lines of purple.
Also, I really can't stand the thought of ever seeing that game's first stage again in my life.
2. Remember where those hidden dudes are. You know, the ones that shoot the pink patterned bullets? Take those guys out ASAP. Anticipate when they will emerge and apply that laser.
3. The very end of Stage 3 before the boss gets hairy and involves some aggressive sweeping through relatively dense firepower. If I remember correctly, it's best to move towards the enemy as they are moving towards you so you don't get trapped in one of the corners. Just have a general sense of the direction of the enemies and try to kill them before they kill you.
4. You know those enemies that shoot giant balls on both sides and regular sized bullets? Try and chill right in front, right in the middle, and tap dodge the smaller bullets while applying laser. It's hard to get hit that way.
I hope that helps. Also, training modes can save you from getting burnt out of earlier levels. But beware, don't abuse it, or else you'll get burnt out on that level!
When you say the hidden guys, do you mean the green ones, or the woodlice that shoot the lines instead of the aimed balls? If the latter, how does killing them quickly do any good? As far as I can tell, they fire as soon as they appear, and once they've fired it's too late to do anything about it.
1) Music can glitch.
2) If you do this around 20 times, eventually MAME is going to crash
3) Same as above, after loading MANY times the framerate begins to drop.
4) When you load a state, the message on the bottom obstructs your view of the action.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
This sounds rather obvious, but is it possible Obscura is having such problems with Futari st3 because of the slowdown issues with mame and SH3? I tried Futari on mame and noticed certain areas I expected to have slowdown didn't have them at all... and I rely on it a lot to get through the second half of st3. The woodlouse section would be a magnitude of difficulty higher (though certainly still not impossible) if there were no or minimal slowdown, imo. Or was this mostly solved with the adjustable blitter mame version?
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
Woah, cool; didn't know that, but sure enough, it works.J_Taishu wrote:
I'm using Slowpoke Mame and save states do have some limited functionality. You can use save states as long as you only load them when you've naturally progressed to that stage. For example, if you want to practice the woodtick area on stage 3, first get there normally and create a save state directly after the midboss. As long as you make it a point NOT to go to the next stage you can keep on loading the save state from that point with minimal problems. At least, this worked with Mushihime sama. The problems with doing this are:
1) Music can glitch.
2) If you do this around 20 times, eventually MAME is going to crash
3) Same as above, after loading MANY times the framerate begins to drop.
4) When you load a state, the message on the bottom obstructs your view of the action.
From the videos I've seen on youtube of the 360 version, the adjustable blitter version set to 63% is nearly identical as far as slowdown goes.This sounds rather obvious, but is it possible Obscura is having such problems with Futari st3 because of the slowdown issues with mame and SH3? I tried Futari on mame and noticed certain areas I expected to have slowdown didn't have them at all... and I rely on it a lot to get through the second half of st3. The woodlouse section would be a magnitude of difficulty higher (though certainly still not impossible) if there were no or minimal slowdown, imo. Or was this mostly solved with the adjustable blitter mame version?
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TrevHead (TVR)
- Posts: 2781
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:36 pm
- Location: UK (west yorks)
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I used to do the same when I first got into the genre, then after I gained enough limited experience that I stopped using this method and relied on the knowledge I already know to get by and play more casually. It seems that its good advice to always do your homework even if playing casually.Icarus wrote:I always make it a point to understand any and all required systems first before taking the game apart. The first few sessions I spend with a game are to that end, then once I have a decent grasp of the game's underlying mechanics, I use any relevant knowledge and experience gained in the past in devising strategies throughout the game.
With how you are always posting videos, ild guess that you have an capture card, I bet its invaluble for reviewing your own pratice. It irks me that im unable to record my pratice sessions in game, only full runs.
Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
I've been making replays for years, it's pretty ingrained in my videogaming culture since back in the days when we actually had a decently sized arcade and gaming community up here in the North-East. First replay I was given was a VHS of a local 2-ALL clearing R-Type, if I remember correctly. I like to record my plays for posterity (proof of scores, WIP strategies etc), later viewing, and for people that might be interested.TrevHead (TVR) wrote:With how you are always posting videos, ild guess that you have an capture card, I bet its invaluble for reviewing your own pratice. It irks me that im unable to record my pratice sessions in game, only full runs.
I have a variety of methods to capture at the moment:
1) Hauppauge HD-PVR for consoles - X360 and PSP-2003 outputs direct to component, while other consoles use a video scaler (DVDO iScan VP30) to convert to component where required.
2) PC games get FRAPS, while Mac gets iShowU HD, both screen-recording software.
3) DisplayRecorder for the iOS devices currently, though I'm experimenting with both Reflection for Mac (Airplay Mirroring), and the Dock-to-DVI output adapter.
Capturing can be a relatively inexpensive thing to get into if you look for the right tools. I used to use Motion JPEG capture cards like the Pinnacle DC30 for their low cost and the ability to capture 60fps replays (albeit at a really low resolution), but now you can get something like the BlackMagic Intensity Pro (internal capture card, HDMI and analog compatible) or the HD-PVR (component HD input only) for a decent price. That's a sacrifice of perhaps one or two import games for a lifetime of use.

Re: Futari stage 3 harder than stage 5
never got to stage 5
…but good to know for a beginner.

…but good to know for a beginner.