How to make shmups appeal to a broader audience

[AntiFritz]

Cave's last financial report spooked a lot of people, myself included. Low sales = no profits = no new shmups.

I'd like to place the blame for that squarely on the failure that was Instant Brain, and that abysmal MMORPG originalz and I played at the last matsuri event. Were there any sales figures for nin-nin jump? As greg pointed out (and had photos of) in another thread, they've apparently been involved in some new hardware manufacturing as well. I know they said that Akai Katana wasn't the runaway success they wre hoping for, but I'd still like to think it was profitable and worth their while. Not to mention the fact that anytime they hold an online matsuri event their website is unavailable for the hour after opening. I hear the ios ports are doing fairly well.. But who knows.. thats all just speculation..

Their making another game in the style of instant brain though (or were, that may have changed).

[MrChiggins]

I also don't want shmups to be popular simply for the sake of it. I'd sincerely go apeshit over a shmup that has been intelligently "game-ified." IMO, the principles I and some others have outlined are just good sense regardless of who's playing. The whole of modern gaming need not be casually cast aside as pure pandering; there are legitimately sound design decisions that go along with them. I'd personally like to see them applied more fully (where appropriate) to other esoteric genres like 2D fighters and roguelikes.

Popularity is a good thing insofar as it allows genre devs to remain solvent, allows for newcomers that buck traditions, and opens the possibility for more creative freedom to go for high-risk, high-reward design.

I really don't see the controversy there, unless you're so enamored with the current state of affairs that you favor extreme conservatism. Bewilderingly, this seems to be the case of many users here. There's a similar sentiment going around right now in the roguelike community (a genre which has *never* had a golden age, and is supported entirely by indie efforts), that the sudden rise in popularity and willingness of commercial-indie devs to toy with roguelike principles will somehow irrevocably corrupt the entire scene. It makes no sense in either situation.

This. All of this. Side note: We should have more roguelike talk on shmups forums and vice versa. It's kind of a wet dream for me. Roguelikes are the only single player games that offer a gameplay experience as beautiful and utterly singular as shmups. I propose that we create a roguelikes\shmups forum!
Anyways back to the topic... shmups totally have the potential to be as popular as 2D fighters. I can easily imagine a world where shmups are more widely accepted and they even have their own annual competitions like EVO. *tear* It just feels like bad luck more than anything that that isn't the case.

[Special World]

I think it's more that nobody looked at Twinkle Star Sprites and decided to refine it with extra modes and levels and name it something that wasn't Twinkle Star Sprites.

[kid aphex]

I agree with Moniker ... but aside from achievements, leaderboards, and downloadable replays, I can't think of TOO MANY modern gaming mechanics/design principles I'd like to see go into shmups. User created content might be interesting, considering how devoted to and knowledgeable of the genre some of us are.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Roguelikes are the only single player games that offer a gameplay experience as beautiful and utterly singular as shmups. I propose that we create a roguelikes\shmups forum!

There's even some good online Roguelikes that make for fun multiplayer too. I think they'll always be even harder to get into though, because the basic rules/controls are almost always much more complicated.

Weren't there a few shmups that allowed for user created content? One played a bit like Tumiki Fighters if I recall, but the problem is user content is only as good as its users (and the majority of users on open content games tend to make crap I find).

[Rex Cavalier]

Weren't there a few shmups that allowed for user created content?

Fraxy, anyone?

[DEL]

By all means you can incorporate some of the suggestions here into new shooters.
But all that really matters is that 2D Shoot'em ups continue to be made, not go extinct.
As NTSC-J says, keep'em niche.
Plus I agree with Bee Cool;

It would require a change in the consumers, not a change in the games.

Yes & the Western game developers absolutely will not allow that. They only produce 3D style games (except a certain German company of course ). So they will only push what they produce. The gaming Public will remain none the wiser.
The public will only consume what is served to it. So I guess my ultimate answer to the thread title is certainly not to bother making them appeal to a broader audience. You'd be banging your head against a brick wall.
Its similar to the plight of the skill-based Arcade. People have just got out of the habit of visiting them. We have Casino arcade in Central London and its packed full of shmups and new fighting titles and the only people who ever really go there are the NeoEmpire fighter players (who also tend to be fickle & non-arcade loyal, just new game-loyal) and a few of us. Its mostly empty, despite its Central London location.
The Public have changed.
If you even wanted to bother , perhaps the only way to re-educate them would be to gain some TV air time like spadgy did and make sure that some visceral shmup replay footage is shown. Let'em see what they are missing.

[Estebang]

From the last page:

Were there any sales figures for nin-nin jump?

Cave didn't make a single yen off the game, because all profits from the first few months went to earthquake relief. Well, aside from the handful of people who may have bought it after that period ended.

[Hagane]

You can make casual friendly games while still having a good hardcore game.

Add an interesting story with elaborate cutscenes for each level (make them skippable or add a "no cutscenes" option), lots of unlockables (but not in a retarded way as in Jamestown ie. not levels, ships and difficulty modes) such as illustrations, alternate game modes (you could add an unlockable versus Twinkle Star Sprites mode as suggested here for example), character profiles / backstory info, etc, achievements, a good tutorial, Touhou like practice mode where you can not only select levels but boss patterns, even a recording / savestate feature mode would be nice.

Separate difficulty modes are a must; to encourage 1CCs you could do something like giving 2 continues for Easy, 1 for normal and 0 for hard and give the best unlockables only for hard.

Fanservice / likeable characters are also a must. As much as we love mechs and ships some fanservice fodder can do wonders for a game's popularity (see again Touhou; most of its fanbase can barely play the games).

With all that mostly superfluous stuff casuals like, you could make a shooter sell decently enough while mantaining the core game intact.

[gs68]

If Deathsmiles ditched the lolita and Halloween aesthetics for R-Type-esque visuals, I can bet you it would have lost customers.

[NTSC-J]

Is dressing up these games with a lot of flash and thunder to draw in new people really the way to go? I dont think that someone who only likes a shooter that has an involved storyline, save points, and long game length, will then migrate over to regular shooters.

If my dog wont take a pill unless I shove it into a wad of hamburger, that wont lead to her liking the pill. She`ll always want hamburger.

And personally, if all shooters adopted some of the suggestions in this thread, that would be my cue to exit.

If anything, shooters just need a better publicist. Articles that explain how these games are meant to be played and reviews from competent people that get a lot of exposure could bring in folks who like the type of gameplay that shooters offer, but maybe just werent aware they were out there. The most common reason I see newer members here mention for getting into these games was after they saw the Hardest Boss Ever Mushihimesama video, and the thing that brought me in over a decade ago was reading in Gamefan about Batsugun and Dodonpachi being hard as hell. The challenge should be the draw.

[Moniker]

Shmups do need exposure more than they need fully featured ports. It is extremely important, however, that a person's first experience of a modern shooter be positive rather than frustrating or bewildering. I believe there's a greater population of gamers out there right now looking for a proper challenge, and the best way to keep them here once they've arrived is to lower the barrier to entry - chiefly the learning curve. Not by making shmups easier, but by giving the player tools to play them properly. I'm of the view that a game should contain within itself all the information necessary to succeed. Shmups don't do nearly enough in this regard, which leads to the mistaken view that they're unfair. Unless you're a person possessing unusual patience and open-mindedness, in the gaijin world, you only get the necessary info by stumbling upon either this site or the touhou community. Not very good odds.

[Drum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzxi8nid9BQ

Make them like jetpack joyride, that's really popular (though there's pretty much nothing original about it, other than monetization).

Keep the one touch gameplay for movement, and a second touch for shot direction. Could play with both thumbs.

Other than that, make them like older score-based arcade games - controlled randomness, play forever and and stupid shit like achievements/unlocks.

[BeruBeru]

The thing you guys ignore is that 99.9% of the broader audience is a lost cause, if they haven't opened their mind up until now to something other than the regular mainstream stuff and facebook games, the idea to create a game that will convince casuals to migrate to the really good shmups, fall in love with the genre and leave the mentality of highest level of gaming=playing cod on xbox live.
Also judging by reaction of different people I know to shmups I've come to several conclusions, some of them actually liked the idea of difficulty and scoring systems, most of them said it looks too hard and old. But the real conclusion aka the real reason IMO most of the casual gamers wouldn't to play shmups has nothing to do with the game itself, it's that thay would feel ashamed playing in a world of "modern gaming" a game that in their eyes belongs to the past, most of them will be % sure that the game they and most of the world playing is far more complex and intelligent than those "dumb shootemups" from their childhood, and if not, then they will feel that having your friends find out that they play them is like getting out of the closet. Think about the shooters they do play, it's mostly dual stick shooters with neo-retro graphics, which automatically makes them think about it as modern take of that old genre.

Anyway after reading my comment I think I got an idea, facebook.
If it's there, people *will* play it, people play games that if facebook didn't exist they wouldn't even touch them.
Make it as difficult as it should be, even port older titles, just make sure your score is compared with your friends and gives updates, if you can't make them play the genre for themselves, you can address to their ego and the possibility to play wherever they are and being competitive about the score with their friends, forcing them to get better and learn scoring.

[Marc]

The thing you guys ignore is that 99.9% of the broader audience is a lost cause

Except it isn't. Shmups have become too insular, too complex and too downright scary looking for most of the gamers I grew up with.
Revive an old title, say Flying Shark/Slapfight HD, give it three difficulty levels where - and this is most important - surviving further=scoring higher, with an expert mode for the likes of this board, and I know at least a half dozen players my age, who have never touched a shooter in the last fifteen years that would buy it tomorrow.

Seriously, boot up DDP:R and it's confusing mess of game modes. If you're not already into the 'scene' you're not going to have a fucking clue where to start, which quickly leads to indifference.

[DragonInstall]

I know this may sound dumb, but I think having likable characters with an interesting story would help make shmups more appealing.

[Eaglet]

I know this may sound dumb, but I think having likable characters with an interesting story would help make shmups more appealing.

Heeeeell fuckin' no.
As most people have probably touched upon here; if you want a widely appealing shooter here in the west you'd better make it old school with a non-existant scoring system and graphical design reminiscent of 1942.
Weird characters and lolis don't exactly appeal to the 30-somethings that would constitute of the main casual user base.