How to make shmups appeal to a broader audience

[Gus]

No. It IS possible to add features to a shmup that will make it enjoyable for more audiences without sacrificing what the so called 'hardcore' audience wants. I like the idea of implementing a separate 'training mode' in some games that actually helps to teach you how to dodge stuff properly. I don't agree that the main game itself should be somehow 'nerfed' to make it easier to beat in 1 credit.

The key here is OPTIONS. Different difficulties and modes. You don't have to sell your soul to make a game more accessible.

But those ideas do little to address the fact that the game itself has little or no appeal to casual gamers. The short length, the extremely repetetive gameplay, and the sheer amount of time and practice needed in order to get a good score are all aspects that really turn off today's "core gamers".

[Ed Oscuro]

Assumptions, assumptions...I think Psyvariar's "dodge between the shit to get good stuff" approach could work pretty well for casual games.

The only problem, of course, is that most handheld devices (and even games consoles) are moving to accommodate less precise usage, and that might be the real sticking point for "casual" shooting games.

Somebody really ought to just make a shooter that makes use of multi-touch to warp around, maybe...lotsa collision avoidance? Doesn't sound good...but nobody's payed me yet to come up with these ideas.

[KNekoSpy]

No. It IS possible to add features to a shmup that will make it enjoyable for more audiences without sacrificing what the so called 'hardcore' audience wants. I like the idea of implementing a separate 'training mode' in some games that actually helps to teach you how to dodge stuff properly. I don't agree that the main game itself should be somehow 'nerfed' to make it easier to beat in 1 credit.

The key here is OPTIONS. Different difficulties and modes. You don't have to sell your soul to make a game more accessible.

But those ideas do little to address the fact that the game itself has little or no appeal to casual gamers. The short length, the extremely repetetive gameplay, and the sheer amount of time and practice needed in order to get a good score are all aspects that really turn off today's "core gamers".

What if the so called 'core gamers' don't care about score? Do they have to? If the game was designed right they'd be able to have fun at an entry level while the so called 'hardcore gamers' would still be able to use advanced techniques to get to much higher scores.

I don't think 'repetitive gameplay' is a fair point in today's society, seeing as how FPSes tend to be VERY repetitive. But you may have a point about short length...to which I ask you, do you really want a game as long as Radiant Silvergun? That could be solved by either lowering the price or including some extra scenarios and unlockables, a la Touhou (oh noes, I said Touhou).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

We got enough ballbusters to last us lifetimes; why it would it kill us if there existed one entry-level game, or even one game with some entry-level features on the side, I have no idea.

We do have some very good entry-level games; the Touhou series is often recommended as a good entry to bullet hell games, several of Cave's ports have Novice modes in them, etc.

Casual gamers just aren't looking for a game that encourages you to play it multiple times to practice and get better, go for higher scores, etc. They want a game that can be played for a long time without having to replay levels where there's constantly new content, or a short game that doesn't require much of a skill investment. Basically, the opposite of what shmups are. Shmups are meant to be played for a long time, the sort of game it's fun to come back to, to work hard at, and it's I think it's simply hard for that to appeal to today's casual gaming market.

[Kollision]

one game that kinda fits into some of the suggestions of this thread is Sega's Thunder Force VI

excellent aesthetics, explosions everywhere, fast-paced action, cinematics all over the place, plane bending/tilting, some background interaction, classic legacy, etc.

and it failed with mainstream and hardcore gamers alike
why?

could the formula evolve from TF 6 or not?

[Aconcit]

Add dodge-assist.

[gs68]

The danmaku trend needs to go die, or at least sink into the background--every game these days has at least 50 million bullets on the screen at once. That's not really helping the genre's case. Even Raiden IV has some significant bullet hell elements.

Most players would rather dodge about 5-8 fast bullets at once even if the game is on par with Touhou on Hard--it's much more feasible-looking than something that will overload the senses of new players. There are those who are overwhelmed by TH even on Easy, because there are still a fairly large number of bullets on the screen.

Shmups have gone from "oh, so it's like Raiden" to "oh, so it's like Touhou--OH GOD IT'S SHIT-ASS HARD ISN'T IT?"

[Marc]

I'm 34, and I obviously have friends in the same age range that grew up with me, playing Slap Fight, Flying Shark, R-Type etc... be it on C64, Amiga, Arcade or whatever. The one thing those earlier games had in common, bar the odd exception, was that survival=score. Get further than your last attempt, and you'd score higher, and feel you'd gotten somewhere.

The problem with shooters at the moment, is that to anyone that hasn't got some experience of them, they're perversely dense. For me, it happened with fighting games. I still believe that SFII Hyper is the best fighting game of all time, simply because there were six basic buttons, two/three special moves, and you learned the rest as you went along. Of course it wasn't that simple, but it appeared to be, and that's what drew me in. Come the time of SFA3, V/X/A-isms, parries, reversals, blah blah blah, instruction booklets that took ten pages to describe even the basics, along with six/seven possible setups per character... I gave up. Shooters are at the same point. They're mostly made by the hardcore, for the hardcore and we take it for granted that others will be able to wrap their heads around it.

I love Cave's UK releases so far, but there are so many modes, with so many rules, with so many playing styles and options, that even the gamers I grew up with are genuinely puzzled. They don't understand three seperate modes on one disc, and they don't understand why someone can score ten times more in the first stage than they can in three. And there's so much stuff out there competing for their time, attention and money, that it's unlikely they'll ever care. Hell, I don't get the recharge thing in DS and I'm kind of immersed in the genre. How demoralizing must it be for someone that lost touch with classic gaming and wants to rediscover it, to find what you though was a decent run has landed you in the bottom 5% on your particular board?

My answer would be to get back to basics. I can only speak for my crowd, but a retro name like Flying Shark, with pretty graphics, and, more importantly, a scoring system they can understand, I know a dozen folk that have ignored the Cave games that would buy that tomorrow, or at least they would if Capcom hadn't already dropped the ball with Joint Strike. Dicks.

[Estebang]

Danmaku is here to stay, but I agree that I wouldn't mind seeing a few more shmups with huge hitboxes, tactical weapons, and a small number of fast, aimed bullets. Raiden IV isn't that far removed from this, really.

[Thunder Force VI] failed with mainstream and hardcore gamers alike

Not a cheap downloadable game, no international release.

[J_Taishu]

Now that you mention it, Jamestown was largely appealing because you could clear a level and never have to worry about it again if you didn't want to. Just about anybody could pick up that game, play for around 10-12 hours to beat the game and feel fairly satisfied with their purchase. That is what is the biggest problem with CAVE shmups. Either you just play to clear and the game is insulting easy due to credit feeding or you play for score and you're punished severely for even slight mistakes. I don't think that playing a port of an Arcade game is enough of a game in and of itself to satisfy most people.

In the least, if you're asking folks for $10 for your game, you should have something that the average joe can have fun with for around 10 hours.

[Special World]

1) Individual levels that can be completed by themselves or tackled as a gauntlet.

2) A world map to select levels from, as in Super Mario World.

3) Variety. Infinite levels with increasing rank/difficulty, as in Geometry Wars. Standard scrolling/caravan stages. Time attack stages. One-life survival stages. Boss battle bullet hell stages. Again, think Super Mario World. You have standard stages, scrolling stages, underwater stages, fortresses, and castles. You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket. In addition, you could even program in different worlds. Perhaps the first world is a simple Galaga type affair, with swirling, chunky bugs. The second world is a twin-stick with vectrex-style exploding neon. The third world is a caravan world with Parodier style visuals. World four is a strict sidescroller like R-type or Gradius, set inside a biological landmass. The fifth world is BULLET HELL, complete with swirling purple vortices of death and a bleak dystopian DOJ/Ketsui world. Some of these would probably turn out better than others, but it doesn't matter. There'd be a lot of content and variety, and everyone would really appreciate it. With the proper understanding of what makes each gameplay style fun, you'd have a bunch of good-great worlds and maybe one or two that certain players wouldn't take to. I'm not hot on SMW's underwater stages, but I'd never want them taken out. They're refreshing.

4) Low threshold for beating a level, but incentive for mastery. Let them have their bronze without too much struggle, but really make them work for gold medals, which can unlock alternate routes, and platinums, which unlock non-gameplay extras like concept art and music tracks.

5) Co-operative and versus multiplayer. Think Jamestown for co-op, and Twinkle Star Sprites for versus. At the very least, program in a simultaneous Caravan mode that lets players go through stages simultaneously to compete head-to-head.

All are things that would appeal to everyone. People like to pretend there's some rift between "hardcore gamers" and "casuals," but there's an absolute fuckton that can be done within the parameters of a shooter that both veterans and newcomers would love.

[ZenErik]

It's probably already been said, but I don't feel like reading the entire thread. How to make shmups appeal to a broader audience? Easy.

Have Activision give Cave the rights to make a Call of Duty themed shmup.

[Estebang]

It's probably already been said, but I don't feel like reading the entire thread. How to make shmups appeal to a broader audience? Easy.

Have Activision give Cave the rights to make a Call of Duty themed shmup.

Already done (kinda.)

[Formless God]

I have a feeling that the STG devs have already done everything within their power. Practice/stage select with custom settings ? Check. Achievements and unlockables ? Check. Loads and loads of modes ? Check. Continue system that is not abusable ? MoF/SA/UFO. Pretty much the only things left are cutscenes and a "deep, touching, meaningful" story so that all the uneducated, pretentious fucks can go tell their parents and the shittier side of the Internet about depths and moral values in their shooting games.

Or, you know what, just make more fucking STGs. Part of the reason why people thought the genre was dead is because nobody makes them anymore.

Danmaku

Too many and too few are equally bad. Something similar to DOJ/Futari Original would be ideal.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Snip

Good post, and you are spot on, and most genres (and games series) suffer to some degree with getting too complex with each iteration, which after years and years its a complete minefield for newcommers. Vs fighters with massive rosters is one of the main things that puts me off them. One of my favorite racers is Daytona USA on XBLA and one of the big reasons why I like it is because it only has 3 tracks so it doesn't take ages for me to master the game. While Forza 3 on the other hand didnt gel with me because in each week in the racing calendar I was playing on different race tracks, instead of just one track that I could master and move onto the next.

That said imo having all the different modes of play is a good thing with CAVE shmups, because shmuppers can pick and choose the scoring system and difficulty thats suited for them. But CAVE could certainly do a better job at sign posting which are the recommended gameplay modes for the average gamer. Take DFK with all its modes, then you have 3 ship types, and then bomb, power and strong. I wonder how many gamers never clicked on to the fact strong C is the best way to beat the game.

[kid aphex]

My opinion? The broader audience that the OP suggests exists are, mentally, so far away from accepting what we would consider a solid shmup experience that little bits of tinkering and tooling with the OG formula and inserting more 'modern' mechanics and game tropes (the 'game-ification' of shmups) really isn't going to ever have much of a effect.


Now, if by "broader audience" the OP is referring to gamers (who, even hardcore, have largely abandoned the genre) then there's definitely a potential for expansion. Shmups, especially Cave shmups, have such an incredible wealth of ways-to-play, and offer such an extreme difficulty, that they SHOULD be garnering the attention of the demographic that's making games like Dustforce and Super Meat Boy successful ... but they're not. Why?

There are a bunch of reasons.

1. They're only coming out on the 360... in Japan. Purists out there will throw a fit, but if shmup devs want to find their market (in the US at least), they've got to go where the HARDEST of hardcore gamers are ... and, it pains me a bit to say it, they're mostly on PCs at this point. Just follow the recent trend of development studios recouping all losses of their console-published games simply by re-releasing them digitally via Steam. The numbers don't lie ... PC gamers are interested in games.

2. They're largely impenetrable. Like fighters (but moreso), the systems and mechanics in shmups games are largely impenetrable to the average person. Personally? This is one of the aspects of the genre I love the most ... it really weeds out less 'passionate' players. But, this is a thread about appealing to more people... and from that perspective, the amount of work a person has to do to come to understand the scoring systems behind a Cave game is completely absurd. Learning the intricacies of these games is an exercise in navigating the ruins of the internet. The are large numbers of gamers who would be drawn to the genre just to experience the insanity and test out their gaming mettle ... if they knew it was there, and didn't misjudge the genre as unfairly/impossibly difficult

3. The community Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the fighting game community and how the media spotlight is currently focusing on the immaturity of it all. Has it made any of you think about what this community is like? At best we're insular, grumpy intellects. At worst, mild aspies. I'm not leaving myself out of that characterization, and I'm definitely not trying to insult anyone here ... it's just my perspective. I've heard from my peers first-hand how intimidated they are by this forum ... ultimately that's not a good thing, especially when you're talking about broadening the appeal of the genre. And, aside from this site and this forum? There simply aren't many other places to go to learn about shmups. Search for any given modern shmup release on youtube and what do you find? Weird unpacking videos from guys whose shelves are stocked with hundreds of games and action figures... people who are buying the games just because they're collectors. Bleh...

4.Change the aesthetics Again, I don't have a problem with the current aesthetic coming out Japan ... I appreciate and enjoy it. Of course, since I was born in the 80's and raised on Japanese culture (games and animation), my opinion is kind of biased. The culture, and what it's evolved into, really isn't that strange to me. But for younger gamers it all must seem alien, and I can't totally blame them for dismissing an art-style and aesthetic direction they can't understand. So, if you're talking about appealing to others ... you'd have to change the aesthetics up some.

5.Re-educate the mainstream gaming press Gaming 'personalities' mean more to the industry than they ever have ... Sushi-X never had the sway the Giantbomb crew have (and that's a very sad thing).

Last PAX I got to hang out with a bunch of people in the industry; reviewers, freelancers, editors, etc. I spent a few hours drinking with them and and sneakily steering every conversation towards shmups. What did I learn? Besides being the most miserable, defeated people on the planet, none of them know anything or care at all about shmups. They were all completely dismissive of the genre. It's typical ... listen to any modern gaming podcast stumble through a conversation about even the most casual shmup ... it's MADDENING. Every game with projectiles that you have to avoid is 'bullet-hell' and Ikaruga will be name dropped and met with a modicum of praise. I'd prefer they just never spoke about the games at all, but they're so insecure they'd never admit they're ignorant of a genre. The result? REAL aspects of the genre are never addressed, only exaggerations. Blargh

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'd prefer they just never spoke about the games at all, but they're so insecure they'd never admit they're ignorant of a genre. The result? REAL aspects of the genre are never addressed, only exaggerations.

Yeah. It's very maddening when reviewers who clearly don't know much about a game and its mechanics doesn't even touch on scoring mechanics, chaining, etc, and focus purely on "Look! It's another shmup and OH WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE BULLETS". If you're not good at a genre or you don't like a genre, you really shouldn't be putting out reviews, plain and simple.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

5.Re-educate the mainstream gaming press Gaming 'personalities' mean more to the industry than they ever have ... Sushi-X never had the sway the Giantbomb crew have (and that's a very sad thing).

Last PAX I got to hang out with a bunch of people in the industry; reviewers, freelancers, editors, etc. I spent a few hours drinking with them and and sneakily steering every conversation towards shmups. What did I learn? Besides being the most miserable, defeated people on the planet, none of them know anything or care at all about shmups. They were all completely dismissive of the genre. It's typical ... listen to any modern gaming podcast stumble through a conversation about even the most casual shmup ... it's MADDENING. Every game with projectiles that you have to avoid is 'bullet-hell' and Ikaruga will be name dropped and met with a modicum of praise. I'd prefer they just never spoke about the games at all, but they're so insecure they'd never admit they're ignorant of a genre. The result? REAL aspects of the genre are never addressed, only exaggerations. Blargh

I think we have seen an improvement from what it was like 2-3 years ago when it comes to the gaming press, many reviewers atleast know that the 1CC and scoreplay exist, and theres folk like Allistair Pinsof on destructiod (plus somebody at Eurogamer seems to like Cave or shmups) that generally write good reviews that atleat try to inform readers about shmupping concepts. But that said most reviewers dont know any of the terms, language or concepts needed to describe a shmups gameplay to its readership. Instead they fall back on giving the readers the lowdown on the general features and content of the shmup, the same info thats on the back of the box.


I think one thing some of us guys could do with is to make an video, or an article with videos embeded explaining the simple basics that noobs need to know to get them started, ie 1CC, Scoreplay, TATE, Dpad / stick usage, basic dodging techniques, how to practice & improve, good starting shmups.

There are individual guides and snippits on the net but those are spread all over the net and often more compehensive guides with too much info for someone who doesnt want to know everything about the genre, but just needs setting on the right path to playing a popular 360 bullet hell. Those 1 sissy vids that the french shmup forum guys make are great for intermediate players though

[Estebang]

Yeah. It's very maddening when reviewers who clearly don't know much about a game and its mechanics doesn't even touch on scoring mechanics, chaining, etc, and focus purely on "Look! It's another shmup and OH WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE BULLETS". If you're not good at a genre or you don't like a genre, you really shouldn't be putting out reviews, plain and simple.

Well, you have to understand how the reviewers at most of these major sites work:

- Severe deadlines with about the same amount of time to play each game: imagine you've never played Battle Garegga and have 24 hours to review it with no information other than what comes with the game. You'd probably say it was broken and unfair. The only impression they're allowed to get of a game is a rather superficial one.
- There's no telling how much experience or skill the reviewer has within the game genre: the guy who reviews FPSes is also the guy reviewing RTSes.
- The big publishers send out tons of free swag with review copies (probably bribes too), that the sites can be sure they won't get any more of if the game's rated below an 8/10. Gamespot's Jeff Gerstmann was supposedly fired because of a negative Kane & Lynch review. On the other hand, small publishers can't afford this stuff, and their games are almost guaranteed to get panned unless they're "indie" darlings.
- This goes far beyond review sites, but a lot of these people just have terrible taste, are easily won over by production values, memes, "artsy" posturing, the blockbuster hype machine, and they have a narrow perspective of gaming's rich history. N'Gai Croal was once Newsweek's "gaming correspondent," and his first system was a PS2.

[gs68]

Danmaku

Too many and too few are equally bad. Something similar to DOJ/Futari Original would be ideal.

DOJ

Have our standards shifted so much that we think DOJ is quite sane now?

[Blackbird]

To be fair, some of the blame lies with the games themselves for being unintuitive. We wouldn't have to make a video explaining scoring in detail if it worked in a simple, visibly obvious way.

Older games are intuitive. You shoot something, it blows up, you get a fixed number of points.

Newer games can be extremely obtuse. Look at a video of Hellsinker, and, without having anyone explain the scoring system to you, see if you can figure out how the scoring works just by watching it. Yeah, I can't either.

I think this is a significant reason why Ikaruga was popular. Scoring was -extremely- obvious and intuitive. Shoot the right colors in a chain. It's very simple, but actually doing it is very deep and challenging, because it's hard not to accidentally hit other things.

Simple but deep is the way to go.

[gs68]

3. The community Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the fighting game community and how the media spotlight is currently focusing on the immaturity of it all. Has it made any of you think about what this community is like? At best we're insular, grumpy intellects. At worst, mild aspies. I'm not leaving myself out of that characterization, and I'm definitely not trying to insult anyone here ... it's just my perspective. I've heard from my peers first-hand how intimidated they are by this forum ... ultimately that's not a good thing, especially when you're talking about broadening the appeal of the genre.

As I said, look at the SaiDOJ thread. Some posters (not naming any) want the game to be balls-to-the-wall hard. I'm fine if that's the case for Expert (since that's the damn point), but if the game on Shot is going to be bullshittingly hard too then I have little reason to not think that devs and fans want to lock out new fans.

Weird unpacking videos from guys whose shelves are stocked with hundreds of games and action figures... people who are buying the games just because they're collectors. Bleh...

Or the first video of the TLB, which you can bet will have six-digit views within the first week. It's no surprise that they'll be the most popular videos, but with people knowing nothing about a game other than an insane last boss we have a lot to do to dispel the belief that shmups spend every second gangbanging the player.

[Special World]

TBH Deathsmiles did it right. The game lets you select per-stage difficulty, and doesn't turn off new players by listing 1 as "easy" or "baby" mode. The only thing it needs is a difficulty setting where you start off with suicide bullets, and it would be a shining example of catering to new players without shunning experts.

[gs68]

TBH Deathsmiles did it right. The game lets you select per-stage difficulty, and doesn't turn off new players by listing 1 as "easy" or "baby" mode. The only thing it needs is a difficulty setting where you start off with suicide bullets, and it would be a shining example of catering to new players without shunning experts.

MBL's Level 999.

[Special World]

I forgot to mention that I find MBL's scoring ultra annoying, and MBL 999 is going slightly more off the deep end than I'd like.

To me, the perfect Deathsmiles would be Deathsmiles arcade + Ice Palace + suicide bullets at start on difficulty level 3 (or 4, as it were).

I'd like to see that guy who's patching Cave games do that one, personally.

[rancor]

I don't understand how this thread has gone to 3 pages. When I first saw it posted, my thought was "Why would you want our genre to appeal to a wide audience?" Look at most any other leisure activity that has broad appeal and was created for mass consumption by the legions of open-mouth breathers and it's they're more than likely things that neither you or I are interested in. Network TV? America Online? Justin Bieber? NASCAR? Seriously, would you want to add "shmups" to that list? Keep things how they are. We don't need a community of 13 year old potty-mouthed Call of Duty type fans inundating this forum. There will always be games being made that you love, and there will be games made that you hate. How many other people like the games that you play, or their opinion of them shouldn't really matter.. Support the devs you love, participate in the community, and everything will be fine.

[Special World]

I don't understand how this thread has gone to 3 pages. When I first saw it posted, my thought was "Why would you want our genre to appeal to a wide audience?" Look at most any other leisure activity that has broad appeal and was created for mass consumption by the legions of open-mouth breathers and it's they're more than likely things that neither you or I are interested in. Network TV? America Online? Justin Bieber? NASCAR? Seriously, would you want to add "shmups" to that list? Keep things how they are. We don't need a community of 13 year old potty-mouthed Call of Duty type fans inundating this forum. There will always be games being made that you love, and there will be games made that you hate. How many other people like the games that you play, or their opinion of them shouldn't really matter.. Support the devs you love, participate in the community, and everything will be fine.

I don't really get it either, as long as the devs are able to stay afloat. What I'm completely for, though, is taking smart mass-appeal design decisions and working them into STGs to make them better *games* with more variety between titles. I love Cave games, and I'll always have room for another one in my collection, but it would be nice if other devs were making solid STGs (I know there are other good devs, but there's not many), or if Cave themselves would experiment with different styles.

I don't think people want them to be popular for the sake of being popular. They want more games from more developers, and they want more of a community.

[Estebang]

I don't understand how this thread has gone to 3 pages. When I first saw it posted, my thought was "Why would you want our genre to appeal to a wide audience?"

Cave's last financial report spooked a lot of people, myself included. Low sales = no profits = no new shmups.

[rancor]

Cave's last financial report spooked a lot of people, myself included. Low sales = no profits = no new shmups.

I'd like to place the blame for that squarely on the failure that was Instant Brain, and that abysmal MMORPG originalz and I played at the last matsuri event. Were there any sales figures for nin-nin jump? As greg pointed out (and had photos of) in another thread, they've apparently been involved in some new hardware manufacturing as well. I know they said that Akai Katana wasn't the runaway success they wre hoping for, but I'd still like to think it was profitable and worth their while. Not to mention the fact that anytime they hold an online matsuri event their website is unavailable for the hour after opening. I hear the ios ports are doing fairly well.. But who knows.. thats all just speculation..

[Moniker]

I also don't want shmups to be popular simply for the sake of it. I'd sincerely go apeshit over a shmup that has been intelligently "game-ified." IMO, the principles I and some others have outlined are just good sense regardless of who's playing. The whole of modern gaming need not be casually cast aside as pure pandering; there are legitimately sound design decisions that go along with them. I'd personally like to see them applied more fully (where appropriate) to other esoteric genres like 2D fighters and roguelikes.

Popularity is a good thing insofar as it allows genre devs to remain solvent, allows for newcomers that buck traditions, and opens the possibility for more creative freedom to go for high-risk, high-reward design.

I really don't see the controversy there, unless you're so enamored with the current state of affairs that you favor extreme conservatism. Bewilderingly, this seems to be the case of many users here. There's a similar sentiment going around right now in the roguelike community (a genre which has *never* had a golden age, and is supported entirely by indie efforts), that the sudden rise in popularity and willingness of commercial-indie devs to toy with roguelike principles will somehow irrevocably corrupt the entire scene. It makes no sense in either situation.