You know what's fun sometimes?

[finisherr]

Not training/savestating at all. Carefree runs. Purposefully taking nearly suicidal routes to see if you can get through it.

Just sayin...

[chum]

You mean playing video games? Yeah.

"Training" or spamming save states for that matter seems like a huge chore. Never got into that.

[Ed Oscuro]

Not training/savestating at all. Carefree runs. Purposefully taking nearly suicidal routes to see if you can get through it.

Just sayin...

You better not be somebody else who used that name online...Just sayin'.

If not, just ignore this

On topic - I pretty much never play more than one credit at a time in arcade games, I let the continue counter run out. It's more interesting when I manage to survive for longer that way.

[Gus]

On topic - I pretty much never play more than one credit at a time in arcade games, I let the continue counter run out. It's more interesting when I manage to survive for longer that way.

Yeah... I'd say pretty much everyone does that.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I've always preferred watching replays to using save states for practice.

[NTSC-J]

I've noticed lots of people bagging on save states lately, what gives?

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I've noticed lots of people bagging on save states lately, what gives?

Maybe its against the overuse of save states / single stage runs and not enough full runs which can suck all the fun out of playing it. Imo save states are invaluable for practicing against tough bullet patterns and boss fights

[BPzeBanshee]

I've noticed lots of people bagging on save states lately, what gives?

emphatic chatting up a lot of folks.

Jokes aside, TrevHead hit it right on the nail. Some think it sucks the fun out of it. I personally use them rarely because MAME's savestate support's pretty shonky in some areas.

[kernow]

Not training/savestating at all. Carefree runs. Purposefully taking nearly suicidal routes to see if you can get through it.

Just sayin...

oh you carefree, james dean shooting game mother fucker.

[KidQuaalude]

I never do savestates. I only do restarts if to learn a level (in modern shmups).

If you got a highscore while using savestates, you're only cheating yourself as far as I'm concerned.

Full runs seperate the men from the boys.

[hzt]

no no no, this is not the correct way to play shmups

stop it

[emphatic]

This thread is full of win.

[CptRansom]

If you got a highscore while using savestates, you're only cheating yourself as far as I'm concerned.

No, if you get a high score using save states, you're cheating. Period.

Unless you meant using them to practice, in which case there's nothing wrong with it.

I'll never understand why people are so concerned with how other people go about learning games. For some, a one credit run is the most fun. For some, credit feeding is the most fun. For some, grinding out save states is the most fun.

It's pretty obvious that if you want the best score in the shortest time, then practicing with save states/stage select is the way to go. It's easily the most efficient means of achieving a high score. That's been shown over and over again around here. There isn't anything to argue about. If your only goal is mastering a game as quickly as possible, you will break it into sections and practice them.

Personally, I credit feed fucking EVERYTHING now. I don't do save state or level select practice. I don't quit after one credit. I keep on truckin' (well, at least until it gets to a point where I'm continuing multiple times in a short time span) so I can get a feel for how the later levels work and memorize enemy placements at the very least. It's nowhere near as efficient as save state practice, but I find that I have more fun with it. I'll never top any high score boards, but I don't really care because the method used to get to the top feels too much like work for me, and I already have a full-time job.

[Deca]

I would say the majority of my shmup playing is not fun. Not necessarily 90% or anything like that, but maybe 70-80% of my time playing is not what most people would consider fun. If you can't deal with not constantly having fun then you'll never be any good, that's just the way it is.

That isn't to say it's not enjoyable, new accomplishments are always rewarding and a new clear feels absolutely amazing.

[Gus]

I would say the majority of my shmup playing is not fun. Not necessarily 90% or anything like that, but maybe 70-80% of my time playing is not what most people would consider fun. If you can't deal with not constantly having fun then you'll never be any good, that's just the way it is.

Agreed.

[Kollision]

I would say the majority of my shmup playing is not fun. Not necessarily 90% or anything like that, but maybe 70-80% of my time playing is not what most people would consider fun. If you can't deal with not constantly having fun then you'll never be any good, that's just the way it is.

Agreed.

not agreed
what's the purpose of spending so much time if it's no fun?

[chempop]

I don't use save-states at all, I sometimes credit feed but 75% of the time I use 1 credit only, I usually 1CC games I play seriously, I post decent scores fairly often, I always have fun.

I'm not looking to get world records, but I am looking to 1CC Dimahoo legit. Saying I'll never be good because the way I play is foolish.

[emphatic]

I don't use save-states at all, I sometimes credit feed but 75% of the time I use 1 credit only, I usually 1CC games I play seriously, I post decent scores fairly often, I always have fun.

^This. Unless I'm in STGT, but that'll never happen again because almost everyone else and their moms use save states making the competition very uneven. Sure they progress much faster, but not only do they not have fun playing, the fun in playing dies for me as well. This is what happens to shmup lovers when they get old, they get grumpy and annoyed by all the "getting good has got to be really easy or it sucks" kids.

[Erppo]

but not only do they not have fun playing

Hahaha what

[Frederik]

I would say the majority of my shmup playing is not fun. Not necessarily 90% or anything like that, but maybe 70-80% of my time playing is not what most people would consider fun. If you can't deal with not constantly having fun then you'll never be any good, that's just the way it is.

Agreed.

not agreed
what's the purpose of spending so much time if it's no fun?

I noticed that as I get older, the moment I realize I don´t enjoy playing the game at hand I instantly stop.

As an example from another genre: I recently got Tetris Axis and found myself really enjoying the narrow-matrix Survival mode. Played it lots and lots and had a blast trying to best my own score. Then I decided to browse around, discovered the tetris concept and harddrop forums, stumbled across posts about "HOW TO IMPROVE" (hint: play several hours each day, every day), and "hey guys I´ve been playing Tetris The Grandmaster 7 Terrorcore MAX Edition XIII for 9 hours last night and realized I mess up my T-Spins and wallkicks at lot, how do I get more consistent?", got really tired of this whole "playing to win" attitude and went back to just play around and maybe beat my own score once in a while.

In a similar vein, the most fun I´ve had with shmups (outside of full runs in Batrider that, at that time, didn´t work with savestates) was to play the stage 4 or the stage 3 boss in DDP, stage 3 in Ketsui or the first 3 stages in Progear without ever really attempting full proper runs. I could play certain parts over and over again. As soons as I tried a full run I got annoyed with these games. That probably makes me a scub or whatever, but I don´t mind.

These days I feel that the worthwhile things for me to practice daily are drawing and meditation - I find it really easy to burn out on certain games or whole genres if I take them too seriously. I can certainly understand the appeal of really pushing hard to get better at a certain game, sometimes it really isn´t about the game itself anymore but about states of mind and pushing your own limits, but I stopped trying to achieve this via videogames. I guess it all depends on what type of person you are - some enjoy the process more, while others are more the score-driven type.

I still love the "sweaty palms" feeling when you´re overcoming personal obstacles in games, but continue playing without enjoying the process just reminds me too much of my dark days of grinding for souls in Castlevania DoS.

...

Oh, and I fucking LOVE savestates. To me they means being able to skip to all the parts I enjoy - I don´t mind that this isn´t the way these games are meant to be played. I´m just very pragmatic

[spl]

Japanese are far better than anyone here and they don't use savestates or stage select. Just some food for thought.

[Erppo]

Japanese are far better than anyone here and they don't use savestates or stage select. Just some food for thought.

I hope you're joking.

If not, go watch some streams from Japanese players. KET had the Chitta WR in Garegga and he sometimes does savestate practice in his stream.

[spl]

Japanese are far better than anyone here and they don't use savestates or stage select. Just some food for thought.

I hope you're joking.

If not, go watch some streams from Japanese players. KET had the Chitta WR in Garegga and he sometimes does savestate practice in his stream.

Garegga is old game - I mean world records for new games - all set/played in arcades before available in MAME/ports. Superplay DVDs - all done before MAME/ports with just arcade PCB. How can you use savestate here?

[Emuser]

I usually don't save state anything unless I plan on seriously 1 credit clearing it. I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the cave effect of stage 1 generic bullshit. There's something about stage 1's in these games that causes random restarts all the time, after a while I'd get tired of trying to learn the game through full runs. Its nice to be able to start on any stage and practice it instead of having to play through the first two stages of Ketsui repeatedly everytime you randomly slip up in it, especially if the game has harsh looping/scoring requirements.

[Udderdude]

Japanese are far better than anyone here and they don't use savestates or stage select. Just some food for thought.

I hope you're joking.

If not, go watch some streams from Japanese players. KET had the Chitta WR in Garegga and he sometimes does savestate practice in his stream.

Garegga is old game - I mean world records for new games - all set/played in arcades before available in MAME/ports. Superplay DVDs - all done before MAME/ports with just arcade PCB. How can you use savestate here?

As soon as savestates or ports w/ practice mode/creditfeeding (for free) are available, most serious Japanese players will use them. You aren't really proving much here.

[saucykobold]

I would say the majority of my shmup playing is not fun. Not necessarily 90% or anything like that, but maybe 70-80% of my time playing is not what most people would consider fun. If you can't deal with not constantly having fun then you'll never be any good, that's just the way it is.

Repetitive practice doesn't have to equate to dull and dreary grinding. Basketball players practice jump shots over and over so they can perform better in games, but they usually enjoy the practice in and of itself. For me, much the same holds for save state drilling. In addition to producing results faster, it's just a fun thing to do. I love taking an extended look at a tricky spot via save state, experimenting with all kinds of possible solutions, finding something that works well, and refining my ability to execute it.

[spl]

I hope you're joking.

If not, go watch some streams from Japanese players. KET had the Chitta WR in Garegga and he sometimes does savestate practice in his stream.

Garegga is old game - I mean world records for new games - all set/played in arcades before available in MAME/ports. Superplay DVDs - all done before MAME/ports with just arcade PCB. How can you use savestate here?

As soon as savestates or ports w/ practice mode/creditfeeding (for free) are available, most serious Japanese players will use them. You aren't really proving much here.

I'm proving that it is completely unnecessary to get high scores and not as much of a godsend as people here make out.

Rather, the Japanese will credit feed with their own money on bosses and just practice their patterns without shooting. I read this in an SWY interview a while back.

[iconoclast]

but not only do they not have fun playing

Hahaha what

Lol. Training modes/save-states help keep the games fun for me. I'd hate having to play through the easy stuff every time I wanted to practice something from later in the game.

saucykobold summed up my feelings pretty well.

[Erppo]

I'm proving that it is completely unnecessary to get high scores and not as much of a godsend as people here make out.

This is true. Savestates are not going to magically make you a better player, all they do is make the process of learning one game faster. It's the same thing as stage select in console ports. Players who don't have access to that kind of practice do just the same training and experimentation, they just have to credit feed for it. I find it hard to believe any top level arcade player would ignore more efficient practice methods if they were available.

saucykobold summed up my feelings pretty well.

Same here. I really don't do much shmupping that I wouldn't find fun.

[SuperSoaker360]

I credit-feed a lot to learn a shmup inside and out but the first time I tried one credit clearing was when I first played Crimzon Clover (I was originally too cheap to purchase continues in the shop). I spent a good week playing the game whenever I had some spare time at home. By the time I made it to the True Last Boss, the adrenaline was rushing through my body. Ohhh boy, I still remember when I thought it was over and then the second phase of the True Last Boss kicked in. Such a thrilling experience. When he finally went down, the feeling of accomplishment was overwhelming.

When focusing on fun, I tend to credit-feed a difficult shmup. However, when I think that a shmup seems feasible enough for me, I try working towards a one credit clear.