How to make shmups appeal to a broader audience

[Moniker]

I was playing some Ketsui Death Label (NDS), and noticed that it is unique in the shmup world in being full-featured in a way consistent with gaming in other genres. I'm hooked on the game, and not because I particularly dig Ketsui above other shmups, but because it presents a sense of progression that you just don't get anywhere else. So I decided to formulate some thoughts on how shmups might enter the contemporary gaming era without compromising the principles of gameplay that make them desirable to regular fans.

-Present day console shmups are typically straight ports of the arcade game with a few arrange modes thrown in. If you're lucky, you get some difficulty levels and configurable game options such as lives, extend conditions, etc. Even those concessions are woefully inadequate, both because they don't really represent the gameplay of the actual game, and because, design-wise, they're incredibly sloppy.

Alternatives: have a true training mode that teaches you how to dodge and score in an explicit and easy-to-understand way. One method would be a series of challenges. Get x points or above in a 30 second time limit. Survive this bullet pattern at 1/2 speed, 3/4 speed, regular speed. Ring^-27 stumbled upon something brilliant with its collision prediction system. A bullet will change color if it's on a collision course with your ship. Imagine if this were implemented in a reduced-speed training challenge. Bullet patterns suddenly become less mystical, and you can see more directly the consequences of various methods of dodging.

-The only way to measure progress in current shmup culture is to beat your previous high score, or reach a new level.

Alternatives: What if, like Ketsui Death Label, you progressively unlocked more and more difficult special level/truncated versions of the game, while gaining achievements based on landmarks that indicate greater skill. You can actually beat something without beating the full game, and that is immensely satisfying considering what it takes to get that 1CC for most people. You might also unlock tangential challenges - sort of limited arrange modes. Each challenge can be replayed and performance improved and recorded so that you bite off exactly what you can chew, while gaining the skills necessary to beat the main game. The main point here is breaking the experience down into smaller, more easily digestible parts.

-Games either don't feature autobombing, or they do it wrong.

Alternatives: Ketsui Death Label and the upcoming DDP-SDOJ have made a common sense breakthrough that makes bombs more useful to your average player. Clearing the current bomb stock whenever an autobomb is triggered both keeps manual bombing relevant, and allows some wiggle room for those times when you just don't recognize you're about to get hit.

-Unlockables, unlockables, unlockables
People like to unlock stuff. Don't resist it. As long as the main game is available from the beginning, there's no reason not to.

These are the types of improvements that modern fighting games, and roguelikes (in a state of resurgence) are implementing to great effect. Some doujin games also implement these features, and are often the gateway drug that gets people into the genre. Cave and other devs need to recognize that mainstream gamer expectations have evolved from the arcade, and that it is possible to meet them without compromising the visceral thrill and refined, elegant core gameplay that hardcore gamers demand.

[Estebang]

Double thread creation.

[Moniker]

Fixed.

[evil_ash_xero]

I don't think anything really works, at this point. Lost cause.

Just make kick ass games, that appeal to the hardcore audience. That seems to be missing a lot, nowadays. THEN worry about everyone else.

[AntiFritz]

I don't think anything really works, at this point. Lost cause.

Just make kick ass games, that appeal to the hardcore audience. That seems to be missing a lot, nowadays. THEN worry about everyone else.

Because cave and other shmup developers are doing sooooo well these days arent they?

[Estebang]

Well, Treasure and G.Rev have kept themselves afloat while stubbornly refusing to taste the smartphone sugar water. Though who knows how much longer they can hold out. Triangle Service is practically a one-man-show who starves himself to make games.

I must admit, these are some great ideas, but it's a slippery slope. Capcom has become convinced that skilled players always being able to best the unskilled in fighting games is somehow a flaw, and now we've ended up with gems in SFxT. The same thing could happen to shmups, if it hasn't already--SDOJ only breaks combos if you die, and survival difficulty in Cave games has become an absolute joke, compared to what it was as recently as Pink Sweets. Games have to rely entirely on the minutiae of their scoring systems to stay relevant, and Joe Sixpack don't like that neither! How well has Jamestown sold, anyway?

I'm still convinced that the surest ticket to an immediate spike of interest in shmups would be for Cave or G.Rev to make a professionally produced Touhou game, with actual enemies and no misty void backgrounds. But ZUN is too proud to allow this.

You could also argue that shmups are irreversibly doomed in the eyes of the common gamer, since they're perceived as an obsolete genre that was invented for the sole purpose of stealing your quarters. (Somehow, this isn't the case with platformers and scrolling beatemups.)

[Chaos Phoenixma]

There's definitely the whole myth of them being unfair to steal your money.

And how is it not the case with beat em ups? Most of those were worse about being quarter munchers.

[ED-057]

Unlocking harder versions of the normal arcade mode doesn`t sound like much of a reward. I think those should be there right off the bat for anyone who wants the challenge. What about this instead... Have a console mode where the player gets a large stock of lives (eg. 10) and they can play through two or more loops of increasing difficulty. But they have to clear a certain part of each stage without dying (eg. the boss) to unlock that stage on a stage-select and be able to start the game from the next stage. Once the easiest loop is fully unlocked then they gain the ability to start from the next loop.

It seems like that would be a way to let the non-hardcore players make progress in an arcade-style shmup without having to go through the effort of heavily reworking the original game.

[Estebang]

And how is it not the case with beat em ups? Most of those were worse about being quarter munchers.

I was referring to the enduring popularity of Final Fight/TMNT/Simpsons, although I guess it's only in spite of the quarter muncher myth that they've persevered. It probably has more to do with the characters, licenses and nostalgia than anything.

Turtles In Time: Re-Shelled gives everyone a pool of around 20 credits to finish the game, which is pretty reasonable for those who don't care about 1CCs and never will. I believe the recent Simpsons re-release gives you a similar amount.

[MathU]

Ketsui: Demo Label full-featured? Surely you jest. Nanostray 1 and 2 and Space Invaders Extreme 1 and 2 are all more complete packages.

[J_Taishu]

An RPGish mode like that new Contra Uprising / Otomedius isn't a bad idea. I'd also include training to explain stuff like bullet hoarding and tap dodging. Even stuff like the difference between aimed/unaimed bullets and how to dodge N-shots would be helpful to someone just starting out.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I managed to clear the survival mode in Reshelled. I never played 4 player co-op on TMNT 1989 though. From the little bit of co-op I've done on Simpsons, it definitely makes it a lot more fun. I should get back to Simpsons Arcade on my 360 soon and actually 1cc the thing(Japan ROM/Expert since US ROM is a lot harder) once I actually figure out how to do stages 3 and 5 without screwing up. It would be my first Arcade 1cc that isn't an STG if I got it.


It does suck that STGs didn't seem to overcome the perceptions about them.

[Estebang]

And I just thought of this:

The only way to measure progress in current shmup culture is to beat your previous high score, or reach a new level.

What you describe after this is pretty much exactly the Combat School mode that's shown up in many Metal Slug games, which lets you tackle individual sections of a stage (often with an added restriction or objective attached) to receive a ranking. You can learn the locations of every POW and practice beating each boss without grenades. There's even missions designed to let you hone your skills against a specific tricky enemy. And there's a sense of progression in checking off the missions, all of which are quite short. However, it's been consistently ignored by virtually all players, who would rather credit feed through the main game (most commonly) or practice it straight through like a typical arcade game. So I don't know how much effect such a mode in a Cave shmup would have.

[Moniker]

Unlocking harder versions of the normal arcade mode doesn`t sound like much of a reward. I think those should be there right off the bat for anyone who wants the challenge.

I was thinking more in terms of more and more difficult short challenge games. If you haven't played Ketsui:DL, then something similar might be unlocking progressively harder caravan modes in the style of the original game. K:DL is a boss rush that starts you off with a 3-4 of the midbosses with easier patterns than the regular game, and gradually steps up the challenge by adding more bosses at higher ranks with more pattern phases. But there's really no limit to the wrinkles you can put in.

You could also argue that shmups are irreversibly doomed in the eyes of the common gamer, since they're perceived as an obsolete genre that was invented for the sole purpose of stealing your quarters.

I think there may still be hope. Due in large part to indie games, hard-as-nails gaming has been making a comeback. The unexpected success of games like Dark Souls, Super Meatboy, and Dwarf Fortress suggest to me that maybe the pendulum is swinging back the other way. Not to mention the reemergence of the 2D fighting game as a major genre.

Edit: As for the Metal Slug 7 challenges, I didn't find them very compelling, since it just felt like I was playing the regular game, so I might as well ignore them. I played the hell out of Contra 4's challenges, though. ISTR Hard Corps: Uprising had them as well. I'm not sure how a Rising mode would work with a shmup (maybe giving you bonuses to base shot power, bomb stock, and the like?), but yeah, that would be interesting as well.

[Estebang]

Well, Contra 4's challenges don't really have much bearing on the main game--they're just a side diversion. Metal Slug 7/XX's Combat School exists for the purpose of you getting better at the main game, which I thought is the kind of thing you wanted to see done better in shmups? Encouraging new score and 1CC-minded players?

I must admit, a lot of the 7/XX missions are redundant with the existence of a stage select. And Slug 3's Combat School, which is definitely a side diversion, is more fun.

[Moniker]

I must admit, a lot of the 7/XX missions are redundant with the existence of a stage select. And Slug 3's Combat School, which is definitely a side diversion, is more fun.

Yeah, it felt exactly like stage select. But maybe I didn't give it a fair enough shake - I've never really paid attention to score in run'n'guns. Also, I definitely feel like Contra 4's challenges helped me with the main game. I guess the ideal for a shmup would be to have challenges that teach the necessary skills, but aren't pulled directly from the arcade version - excepting perhaps boss bullet patterns.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Capcom has become convinced that skilled players always being able to best the unskilled in fighting games is somehow a flaw, and now we've ended up with gems in SFxT.

Reminds me of the complaints Smash Bros fans had when Brawl introduced tripping. Pros too hard to beat? Let's add a random mechanic to a fighting game that gives all heavy attacks a chance to fail and leave you prone! I don't own the game myself, but that sounds like an incredibly stupid mechanic to add to a fighting game.

I think shmups will always have a hard time appealing to a broad audience, simply because if touchscreen gaming's proven anything, it's that there's a whole lot of casual gamers who don't want to actually invest time in something that's a genuine challenge (how anyone would want to pay even a dollar for something like Smurfs or this bullshit on their iPhone instead of even a mediocre shmup instead, if not a good one is beyond me).

[NTSC-J]

I don't think anything really works, at this point. Lost cause.

Just make kick ass games, that appeal to the hardcore audience. That seems to be missing a lot, nowadays. THEN worry about everyone else.

I agree so much with this. These games, by their nature, are not for everyone. They require a lot of practice and repitition, they`re designed to be beaten in a sitting, and they`re generally played in 2D. These are all negative points to most game players. They will never be popular.

[Bee Cool]

It would require a change in the consumers, not a change in the games.

[finisherr]

I was playing some Ketsui Death Label (NDS), and noticed that it is unique in the shmup world in being full-featured in a way consistent with gaming in other genres. I'm hooked on the game, and not because I particularly dig Ketsui above other shmups, but because it presents a sense of progression that you just don't get anywhere else. So I decided to formulate some thoughts on how shmups might enter the contemporary gaming era without compromising the principles of gameplay that make them desirable to regular fans.

-Present day console shmups are typically straight ports of the arcade game with a few arrange modes thrown in. If you're lucky, you get some difficulty levels and configurable game options such as lives, extend conditions, etc. Even those concessions are woefully inadequate, both because they don't really represent the gameplay of the actual game, and because, design-wise, they're incredibly sloppy.

Alternatives: have a true training mode that teaches you how to dodge and score in an explicit and easy-to-understand way. One method would be a series of challenges. Get x points or above in a 30 second time limit. Survive this bullet pattern at 1/2 speed, 3/4 speed, regular speed. Ring^-27 stumbled upon something brilliant with its collision prediction system. A bullet will change color if it's on a collision course with your ship. Imagine if this were implemented in a reduced-speed training challenge. Bullet patterns suddenly become less mystical, and you can see more directly the consequences of various methods of dodging.

-The only way to measure progress in current shmup culture is to beat your previous high score, or reach a new level.

Alternatives: What if, like Ketsui Death Label, you progressively unlocked more and more difficult versions of the game, while gaining achievements based on landmarks that indicate greater skill. You can actually beat something without beating the full game, and that is immensely satisfying considering what it takes to get that 1CC for most people. You might also unlock tangential challenges - sort of limited arrange modes. Each challenge can be replayed and performance improved and recorded so that you bite off exactly what you can chew, while gaining the skills necessary to beat the main game. The main point here is breaking the experience down into smaller, more easily digestible parts.

-Games either don't feature autobombing, or they do it wrong.

Alternatives: Ketsui Death Label and the upcoming DDP-SDOJ have made a common sense breakthrough that makes bombs more useful to your average player. Clearing the current bomb stock whenever an autobomb is triggered both keeps manual bombing relevant, and allows some wiggle room for those times when you just don't recognize you're about to get hit.

-Unlockables, unlockables, unlockables
People like to unlock stuff. Don't resist it. As long as the main game is available from the beginning, there's no reason not to.

These are the types of improvements that modern fighting games, and roguelikes (in a state of resurgence) are implementing to great effect. Some doujin games also implement these features, and are often the gateway drug that gets people into the genre. Cave and other devs need to recognize that mainstream gamer expectations have evolved from the arcade, and that it is possible to meet them without compromising the visceral thrill and refined, elegant core gameplay that hardcore gamers demand.

These are actually really good ideas. It's just a matter of some high-level media reporting on a game like this and highlighting the features. It could increase the overall accessibility of the genre and illuminate the otherwise hidden value of these games to non-shmuppers.

[Kollision]

-Unlockables, unlockables, unlockables
People like to unlock stuff. Don't resist it. As long as the main game is available from the beginning, there's no reason not to.

It's hard not to hear any mainstream review praise the unlocking system in Mars Matrix for the Dreamcast, the best example of this ever released.
Would it work?
Takumi alive, Mars Matrix 2?................
oops i just woke up, sorry

[BeruBeru]

In JPN:
One word - Pantsu

[Gus]

I'm really not sure if there's anything that can be done that actually will get the games back into the mainstream. The industry seems to have become centered around online multiplayer games and single player "blockbusters" that have more in common with movies than games. For most people 2D console games are dead and for whatever reason shmups don't seem to have the same kind of nostalgic value as platformers either. Also no offense to anybody but if the ratio of people posting this board and the people actually playing seriously and posting on the high score board is any indication most people simply don't have the interest to play these games properly. I'd say Cave's time wasting iOS games is the most broad appeal this genre is gonna have.

[shmuppyLove]

In JPN:
One word - Pantsu

Two words:
MOAR LOLIS

[matrigs]

In JPN:
One word - Pantsu

Two words:
MOAR LOLIS

Not moar but MOE LOLIS.

MOE PANTSU LOLIS.

[Estebang]

Cave's best shot at mass appeal and modern relevancy may be to release an iOS version of Uo Poko with Angry Birds-style marketing and presentation. Call it Fish Bubble Popper or Happy Cats or something.

They're not savvy and/or shameless enough to actually do this, however.

[mrsmiley381]

In JPN:
One word - Pantsu

Two words:
MOAR LOLIS

Not moar but MOE LOLIS.

MOE PANTSU LOLIS.

Why the fuck can't it just be robots? Why do men like little girls instead of robots now? Why? Strania had that so-anime-it-hurts shit starting with the first boss of the game. I want more of that. Zooming in on robots that have their eyes flash when they power up. I guess that's not cool any more?

I think challenge modes that allow you to practice skills over a short time would be good. If a game has chaining, make challenges that require the player to hit a certain chain in a short sequence. Later difficulties of the challenge include longer chains and enemies that shoot at you. Stuff like that could really shorten the learning curve.

[Herr Schatten]

They're not savvy and/or shameless enough to actually do this, however.

Wait and see.

[Observer]

If you do what the masses say, you are f*cked. And that's from a marketing point. Of course it's never as extreme like that but:

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/222501

Check some of the comments, they describe the current gaming situation.

So I concur, it's about making the games you think are kickass. Fuck everything else. You can all go play Achievement Unlocked if you want unlockables and achievements all over the place.

And to the guy who said he wants robots with a light shining when they power up, go check Heaven Variant's february video. You are going to love it. Even Japan loved it underneath that layer of moe loli pantsu. I grew up with big badass robots beating the shit out of each other using all sorts of heavy lead and that's what I always look for. (Translation: I absolutely agree with you, man, long live fucking badass robots!)

[DocHauser]

Alternatives: have a true training mode that teaches you how to dodge and score in an explicit and easy-to-understand way. One method would be a series of challenges. Get x points or above in a 30 second time limit. Survive this bullet pattern at 1/2 speed, 3/4 speed, regular speed. Ring^-27 stumbled upon something brilliant with its collision prediction system. A bullet will change color if it's on a collision course with your ship. Imagine if this were implemented in a reduced-speed training challenge. Bullet patterns suddenly become less mystical, and you can see more directly the consequences of various methods of dodging.

Jamestown had challenge levels that were pretty similar to what you describe. Some of them work pretty well as chaining and scoring tutorials.