Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[mjclark]

the other, equally important goal was to make a trojan horse, which is able to convert people and raise interest in our beloved genre.

I've seen this argument before and it's never made sense to me- are you saying that you're going to make a game unsatisfying to people who already really enjoy shmups so that people who actually don't like shmups will start playing them? Doh!

Still excited for Sine Mora release, though less and less so with every post in this thread...
...Believe me I'll let you know what I think of it

[THE]

Not sure, what people complain about. It is exactly what I expected, it's made for people who like casual shmups like Einhänder, Gradius 5, Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga and other mainstream acknowledges shmups :-p
Personally I will stay away from it, but I'm sure it has potential for good sales.

[Alfred]

I am going to buy because it's a STG. All the videos i have seen look beautiful. Thank you for posting on this site.

[Marc]

Those are casual shmups? I think you're getting well-known (of a fashion) confused with casual.

[THE]

Those are casual shmups? I think you're getting well-known (of a fashion) confused with casual.

I consider memorizers generally casual. Gaming for 1cc/score is to abstract for casual gaming.
The fun of these games mostly comes from the presentation or some artsy gimmick.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Although im not a dev or in marketing but imo the trojan horse method can have its merits. Most gamers tend to have negative pre-conceptions with atleast one or two genres (and this genre has more than its fair share, even among those of us who should know better) which makes it nigh on impossible to get thm hyped up for the game. Sina Mora looks awesome and I would guess that many mainstream gamers would have a blast playing it if they gave it half a chance.


A similar thing with bad pre-conception happened with Jamestown, where non shmuppers had negative pre-conceptions as to the difficulty in beating the game in medium difficulty, and while many slated it just on the basis of principle for the game not allowing them to play stages 4 & 5 in the easiest difficulties, others praised the game when they had beaten it.

As for Sine Mora, I think that this game should appeal to casual players as you did the right thing in making it a horizontal. The main thing thats lacking in most vert shmups is the wow factor with eye candy, the top down view limits what artists can do with it. Although I love CAVE's approach to the problem IE apart from HD graphics, they tend to be about flooding the senses with vibrant colours and lots of gems, bullets or numbers onscreen, most of us guys love this style but it can be offputting for gamers who get the wrong impressions with all that action happening on screen.

So yeah Reiker get em in by hook or crook, they'll probably love it when they actually play it.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Those are casual shmups? I think you're getting well-known (of a fashion) confused with casual.

I consider memorizers generally casual. Gaming for 1cc/score is to abstract for casual gaming.
The fun of these games mostly comes from the presentation or some artsy gimmick.

Do you mean the shmups that are easier to beat using rote memorisation, instead of learning the common techniques most hardcore shmuppers learn to be able to beat a game without relying too much on memorisation?

Im not sure that Sina Mora is one of these games, (even though they arent bad games imo) instead it could be more of a hybrid. I havnt played the game but imo the bullet hell patterns would mean that players would have to learn some basic bullet dodging techniques to get through the game. I would expect hard mode with its more challenging bullet patterns would have more emphasis on technique than just plain memorisation

[t0yrobo]

I think trevhead put it pretty well but I'll add a few of my own thoughts anyways .
The whole shmup genre is pretty insulated and not exactly the easiest thing to get into. As annoying as the regular "help me I'm a noob" threads are it's a definite sign that people are interested in the genre, but they don't know where to start. It's intimidating and confusing to get comfortable with shmups for a lot of reasons.
As a whole I don't think this last trailer was great, but at least it's not just showing a constant stream of fluorescent bullets that's beyond most players ability. As exciting as that is for people that are comfortable with shmups, it's paralyzing for people that aren't already into it. I guess I have 2 big hopes for this game, that it has enough difficulty levels that it's not boring for more experienced shmup players, because the one thing I hate is when a shmup manages to be boring. And that the long play time is used to have a nice difficulty curve to get new players up to speed without pummeling them with bullets the entire way.

[Zaarock]

I consider memorizers generally casual. Gaming for 1cc/score is to abstract for casual gaming.
The fun of these games mostly comes from the presentation or some artsy gimmick.

Calling bullshit on Radiant Silvergun here at least.. memorization is hardly necessary in the traditional sense, maybe for a couple chains so you get enough weapon levels and one or two environmental puzzles (there really are very few). I guess the multiple weapon system is the gimmick of the game, but it controls well enough (especially the sword) to work well as the core of the game.

Probably buying Sine Mora if it's at least as good as Omega Five.. hopefully better than I expect :p

[MommysBestGames]

Probably buying Sine Mora if it's at least as good as Omega Five.. hopefully better than I expect :p

I agree. Omega Five really grew on me over time.
--
The philosophical ramblings in the last SM trailer made me laugh.

[J_Taishu]

Those are casual shmups? I think you're getting well-known (of a fashion) confused with casual.

I consider memorizers generally casual. Gaming for 1cc/score is to abstract for casual gaming.
The fun of these games mostly comes from the presentation or some artsy gimmick.

Ikaruga is a casual game? I'd save that term for stuff like Fruit Ninja.

[TLB]

I must say I dont like it.

Yeah, that's not a very promising trailer imo.
...
video seems to emphasize that the game has a ton of memorizey bits, which I can't stand. I really don't like the look of those flamethrower and laser rooms in particular. That they only give us a few seconds of gameplay at a time is also pretty annoying.

Is this like a blooper reel? Needs the Benny Hill theme .. lol

That's a pretty dorky trailer.

This trailer is awful. It shows no real gameplay and makes the game look like it's nothing but frustrating memo beginning to end. Sure the occasional out of nowhere memo kill can be cool or amusing (see: Satazius) but I don't think many people have a desire to sit through an hour of it. All this trailer says to me is "look how fun this game isn't."

I can't help but notice that the closer this game comes to release the more people are blowing off problems and making excuses for it. Pretty sure this game isn't going to be very good and probably won't make much of an impression at all on either the shooter or general gaming communities.

It's a shame, with all the involvement on the forum here I was really hopeful about this game and fairly excited. It seems like they implemented the easy stuff that more or less amounts to adding options but didn't ever have any intention of altering the game itself in any meaningful way, seems like the forum presence was more just an effort to get us hopeful/interested/invested than anything else.

I really sincerely hope to be proven wrong on this and I'm still looking forward to the release but...I'm just not getting my hopes up at all at this point.

Meh. All too slow and annoying to watch. Quite idotic to release a teaser after trailer anyway.

Sounds like Euroshmup. :|

I've seen this argument before and it's never made sense to me- are you saying that you're going to make a game unsatisfying to people who already really enjoy shmups so that people who actually don't like shmups will start playing them? Doh!

Still excited for Sine Mora release, though less and less so with every post in this thread...

I consider memorizers generally casual. Gaming for 1cc/score is to abstract for casual gaming.
The fun of these games mostly comes from the presentation or some artsy gimmick.

Calling bullshit on Radiant Silvergun here at least.. memorization is hardly necessary in the traditional sense, maybe for a couple chains so you get enough weapon levels and one or two environmental puzzles (there really are very few).

I completely disagree. To thee who cry about memo: Have any of you nerds ever played R-Type?! (Honestly...apart from the fact that these games "are all memo and you will never get anywhere without it", once you get to the last couple stages in almost any reasonably difficult shooter, you have to start memorizing...Just because it's less obvious to you that you've memorized an attack or enemy placements, etc., doesn't mean you aren't memorizing almost constantly.)

I like the trailer, Nice music, Nice backgrounds, Despite it looking like a memorizer it looks like the background is trying to kill you... Like on Darius, Which is quite damn awesome.

Fuck yeah memorizer. And environmental hazards, awesome. ...what I did see here, I liked. The mecha at 1:04 was pretty cool.

I completely agree. This game is probably going to be the game that convinces me to bust out my 360. People will whine about 50 minute games, but they don't bash two-loop games that can easily end up being that long (or within ten minutes of it in either direction). Why the fuck would you want to play the same game twice in a row instead of playing unique stages for the second half of the game?! I'm extremely excited.

Reiker, in the event that this project is a complete flop (we're not superstitious, fortunately), I still truly thank you and everyone else involved in making this game for just making it happen. It will be an interesting "experience" no matter whether it sucks or not. If it sucks, it sucks, and I can just watch a replay and probably be just as happy. I actually don't expect to like the player ship's shot (especially since that often ends up completely changing the style of play required to succeed into something that I usually don't dig), but it really seems like it's going to be a good game to get lit, relax, and enjoy no matter what.

TLB

[Deca]

I completely disagree. To thee who cry about memo: Have any of you nerds ever played R-Type?! (Honestly...apart from the fact that these games "are all memo and you will never get anywhere without it", once you get to the last couple stages in almost any reasonably difficult shooter, you have to start memorizing...Just because it's less obvious to you that you've memorized an attack or enemy placements, etc., doesn't mean you aren't memorizing almost constantly.)

There's a difference between memorizing patterns and preparing for them and having to memorize every single place you need to be at every instant of a game. I personally can't derive the slightest bit of enjoyment from R-Type aside from the ship gallery in Final, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Granted, top level score attack play in any game is going to be pure memo, but you can score well in many games with a fair amount of wiggle room provided you hit all the important events on schedule.

The kind of memo I absolutely cannot stand is where you have to move from one safespot to another, and the scrolling speed of the stage combined with the movement speed of your ship mandates that you start moving well before anyone could ever be expected to react. There's a big difference between "crap I should have been on the other side of that stream of bullets and now I'm getting worked into a corner, need to bomb" and "there's no way I can make it into that gap, I'm getting scrolled into the wall." I don't mind the occasional "gotcha" kill in a shooter, but I just cannot stand games that seem to consist of little more than them. I've noticed that games with that sort of design also tend to be paced extremely poorly/slowly, killing motivation to slog back through 30 minutes of the game to dodge that rock falling on you and get hit by a laser 20 seconds later.

It really isn't an issue of it being more or less obvious that you memorized a game, it's a question of quantity. Shooters that people complain are "memorizey" have a lot less gaps between the sections with very strict, narrow paths that must be followed and present situations that cannot be reacted to blind without any sort of means to escape them such as a bomb.

[Illyrian]

Does this game have bombs with invincibility frames?

I think it looks good by the way!

[Gus]

Complaining about memo in shmups is idiotic. If you're not memoing the hell of out any shmup you're playing it wrong.

That said, fuck R-Type. Scenery dodging+no scoring=fail.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Oh come on people, you don't have to like R-Type to rightfully acknowledge it as the best shmup of all time.

[mice]

Oh come on people, you don't have to like R-Type to rightfully acknowledge it as the best shmup of all time.

[saucykobold]

That said, fuck R-Type. Scenery dodging+no scoring=fail.

Destroying all of the crate things in level six is challenging, as is mastering the game's toughest checkpoint to the extent that you can recover several times in a row. Obviously not everyone's going to get a kick out of this, but it certainly qualifies as tricky stuff that jeopardizes survival for points (i.e., scoring).

Is scenery dodging really that objectionable or frustrating? Most of it just sits there.

[guigui]

When I said "I dont like it" I talked about the trailer, not the game itself. Wasn't that obvious ?

I mean, I know I'm gonna die a lot in a shoot-them-up game. I dont need a trailer with a silly guy not moving a single pixel when a giant saw wheel runs straight into him to remind me that. Besides, the trailer is just about nothing. It lasts like 90 seconds, a whooping full 20 of them are gameplay, the rest being black screen and logos.

Anyway, I think trailer is bad but hey, I'll buy the game day one.

[DrTrouserPlank]

If it's an environmental hazard, euroshmup I'm not gonna be particularly interested. I'd wager that the only thing convincing a lot of people here to give this game a shot is Suda 51's name on it. Without that I expect its redeeming features would be few and far between.

[TLB]

When I said "I dont like it" I talked about the trailer, not the game itself. Wasn't that obvious ?

I mean, I know I'm gonna die a lot in a shoot-them-up game. I dont need a trailer with a silly guy not moving a single pixel when a giant saw wheel runs straight into him to remind me that. Besides, the trailer is just about nothing. It lasts like 90 seconds, a whooping full 20 of them are gameplay, the rest being black screen and logos.

Anyway, I think trailer is bad but hey, I'll buy the game day one.

No worries, brah.

If it's an environmental hazard, euroshmup I'm not gonna be particularly interested.

What? It's clearly not "euro" in the commonly understood sense. I don't care whether you like environmental hazards, but this game clearly has them, so you can just quit watching this thread now.

(Seriously, I'm baffled by this line. "If someone buys me chocolate, muffins I'm not gonna be particularly interested." Does anyone give a shit? This thread is for people who are actually interested in the game.)

I'd wager that the only thing convincing a lot of people here to give this game a shot is Suda 51's name on it. Without that I expect its redeeming features would be few and far between.

You are a worthy near-master, and I applaud your persistence. Kindly shut the fuck up, though.~<3

[DrTrouserPlank]

If it's an environmental hazard, euroshmup I'm not gonna be particularly interested.

What? It's clearly not "euro" in the commonly understood sense. I don't care whether you like environmental hazards, but this game clearly has them, so you can just quit watching this thread now.

(Seriously, I'm baffled by this line. "If someone buys me chocolate, muffins I'm not gonna be particularly interested." Does anyone give a shit? This thread is for people who are actually interested in the game.)

I'd wager that the only thing convincing a lot of people here to give this game a shot is Suda 51's name on it. Without that I expect its redeeming features would be few and far between.

You are a worthy near-master, and I applaud your persistence. Kindly shut the fuck up, though.~<3

Thanks for the great advice. Please don't take it too personally that I've chosen to ignore all of it.

[StarCreator]

Because I think what people were trying to say isn't quite clear...

If it's an environmental hazard, euroshmup I'm not gonna be particularly interested.

What? It's clearly not "euro" in the commonly understood sense. I don't care whether you like environmental hazards, but this game clearly has them, so you can just quit watching this thread now.

The objection is the assertion that environmental hazards are a "euroshmup" design quality (it's not - ask Gradius, R-Type, Ikaruga, Strania, and Shikigami no Shiro), therefore the entire statement boils down to an apples to oranges statement that contradicts itself.

This is besides the point that posts that say nothing except "I don't care about this game" bring nothing to the discussion whatsoever and might as well not have been posted in the first place.

[tommyb]

What is this, Dark Souls? Who's bright idea was it to show the character dying over and over again in the trailer? That was the worst trailer I've seen in a long time.

[BPzeBanshee]

The trailer is pretty terrible. I can see what they're trying to do but I wouldn't be convinced by that and neither would my friends who are in the casual audience that the devs are trying NOT to spook off.

I do however like the variety that IS being shown inbetween the excessive use of fading out to black, though.

[wariomona]

Everywhere I've seen this trailer posted around the internet it seems to be putting people off the game, especially those where this is the first footage they're seeing. I do want this game to do well, even if so far it may not be looking quite to my tastes, but this trailer was kinda bad.

[Illyrian]

Everywhere I've seen this trailer posted around the internet it seems to be putting people off the game, especially those where this is the first footage they're seeing. I do want this game to do well, even if so far it may not be looking quite to my tastes, but this trailer was kinda bad.

Do you have statistical or empirical evidence to back this up or are you just bullshitting?

The trailer is perfectly fine, you are all just thinking about this from the perspective of people who apparently hate R-Type and any trailer that shows the player dying.

Like seriously, we haven't even played this game and people are making statements about environmental hazards and completely ignoring the quite frankly awesome looking boss designs and grahpical style. Like seriously, if you don't like it don't play it but don't pull random stuff out of your arse like "everyone on the internet hates the trailer!"

[BPzeBanshee]

Everywhere I've seen this trailer posted around the internet it seems to be putting people off the game, especially those where this is the first footage they're seeing. I do want this game to do well, even if so far it may not be looking quite to my tastes, but this trailer was kinda bad.

Do you have statistical or empirical evidence to back this up or are you just bullshitting?

The trailer is perfectly fine, you are all just thinking about this from the perspective of people who apparently hate R-Type and any trailer that shows the player dying.

Like seriously, we haven't even played this game and people are making statements about environmental hazards and completely ignoring the quite frankly awesome looking boss designs and grahpical style. Like seriously, if you don't like it don't play it but don't pull random stuff out of your arse like "everyone on the internet hates the trailer!"

I guess you missed the part where he said "Everywhere I've seen this trailer posted around the internet". That's evidence based on observation and I'm inclined to agree. I should add that between the hate there is the few comments about loving the graphics.

In other words, it's a lot like this thread at the current moment.

[mice]

The comments I've read regarding the trailer seems to be all positive.
http://www.destructoid.com/sine-mora-bl ... 2784.phtml

(See what I did here, provided some kind of reference. Nice uh?)

[Zaarock]

The trailer

Isn't it called a teaser in the title? makes more sense as such with the ship exploding and showing barely showing environments we haven't seen before. Doesn't make much sense since they already had a proper trailer going but they'll probably make a new one with footage of more levels.