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[Hagane]

You can miss blue 点 items in EoSD, it doesn't matter that much. You can miss the timing of a UFO being a certain colour and there's your run gone. It could be an enjoyable experience, rather than an isolated one.

There's nothing wrong with a scoring system being punishing. May not be your cup of tea, but I like games that encourage perfection.

I didn't say grazing was "useless", I said it takes a back seat because the premise of UFO is.. UFOs.

Nothing wrong with that either. Variation is good, and making big UFOs takes skill.

It's not out of date, but it's a list which of course will mention all characters.

She has the top scores for Easy and Hard, second best at Extra, Marisa B has higher scores than both Reimus in Lunatic. Not what I would call useless. I use Marisa A and find her piercing lasers to be quite good to kill lots of enemies fast and make big UFOs.

What difficulty do you play on? If the answer is "Hard", I can understand you being fine with it. If the highest score is currently on Hard, why even bother with Lunatic?

How is "an entire difficulty being irrelevant", not a serious flaw?

For the time being, normal. Can't go into lunatic right now as I'm focusing most of my time on a Sengoku Blade 2-ALL.

Considering that all Touhou games have separate boards for difficulty modes and characters, I don't see how Hard being the highest scoring mode would be a problem. And I will definitely play Lunatic since harder = better, of course.

Avoiding UFOs makes the stages easier because you don't have to focus on them as well as dodging.

Yeah, not playing for score obviously makes the game easier.

More UFOs = more lives/bombs to spend on bosses. Less UFOs = less lives to spend on bosses, harder bosses, easier stages.

That would be only if you focus your run on red and green UFOs only, which unless I'm missing something would heavily hamper your scoring potential.

I've already explained this. Why should I be forced to bomb and juggle UFOs in order to progress? I'm not forced to bomb on Mei Ling.

I think bombs being well integrated with the scoring system rather than being mostly a throwaway milking technique is an improvement.

Anyways, I think this is too much thread derailing already. Continue it via PM / another thread?

[Formless God]

All I was seeing was a planned influx of fairies expecting the player to clear the screen by using the UFO gimmick.

You stream it.

Many areas of the third stage expect you to have a UFO to clear the screen of bullets with.
You have to fight your way to unnecessarily obtain UFOs throughout the entirety of the game otherwise you're going to be overwhelmed with patterns which weren't designed with intent to dodge traditionally in the first place.

Stage 3 can be cleared without UFOs, I can pacifist the entirety of Stage 4; 1, 2 and 6 don't even matter. The only remotely "overwhelming" part is Stage 5's spam just before the boss.

- the first two and a quarter stages are of the same background (I like how you didn't mention this at all, like you somehow don't use visual cues or something)

Since when were background cues in Touhou games ever useful anyway ?

- none of the music is notable whatsoever

this is not technical at all lol

All of EoSD's characters, stages, music and environment is bursting with life, something which has progressively become stagnant since MoF was released.

EoSD is a fun, "pure" shooting game without flowery bullshit (PCB, IN) or an alien scoring system, but its textures and music are a disgrace to humanity. I also don't like its blatant pandering and Western fetish which a shitload of modern Japanese writers and developers are into for some reason. Maids ? Mansions ? A vampire ojou-sama and its imouto ? Why is this having "Eastern" on its title again ?

[ebarrett]

I also don't like its blatant pandering and Western fetish which a shitload of modern Japanese writers and developers are into for some reason.

It's not as if some people in here or in other shmup/touhou forums are into fetishizing Japan, right.

Unless you mean that the west having a Japan fetish is cool and Japan having a western fetish is not. In which case I pity you.

[Formless God]

Well maybe I'm just sick of maids and goth lolis popping up a bit too frequently in their creations of late.

[Elixir]

For the time being, normal. Can't go into lunatic right now as I'm focusing most of my time on a Sengoku Blade 2-ALL.

Considering that all Touhou games have separate boards for difficulty modes and characters, I don't see how Hard being the highest scoring mode would be a problem. And I will definitely play Lunatic since harder = better, of course.

I find it funny how someone who plays on a Normal level is perfectly happy with the WR being on Hard. Since IN Easy ends a stage early, would you skip it and play Normal? If Normal ended on the second to last stage in UFO, would you skip it and play Hard? Well, how is that any different from skipping Lunatic if Hard can achieve the WR? Maybe I should skip Lunatic entirely. I mean, it's irrelevant. I can just play on Hard. The entire Lunatic mode is irrelevant.

Stage 3 can be cleared without UFOs, I can pacifist the entirety of Stage 4; 1, 2 and 6 don't even matter. The only remotely "overwhelming" part is Stage 5's spam just before the boss.

This really has nothing to do with fundamental stage design or how the creator expects people to deal with the stages. There is actually a coined term for this in Japanese: playing a game the opposite of how it's meant to be played. It can be cleared without UFOs, but that's more or less a personal challenge. Like pacifism, or not focusing (excluding things like PCB and IN which actually reward players for not focusing). With a good understanding of UFO it's very clear of when the game expects you to have UFOs at a time, even if they're not the type you're wanting to collect. So you're basically being shoehorned into it. It's very linear.

Since when were background cues in Touhou games ever useful anyway ?

Stage 4 EoSD Lunatic, first bookshelf that appears. I happen to use a lot of sprite cues as well.

EoSD is a fun, "pure" shooting game without flowery bullshit (PCB, IN) or an alien scoring system, but its textures and music are a disgrace to humanity. I also don't like its blatant pandering and Western fetish which a shitload of modern Japanese writers and developers are into for some reason. Maids ? Mansions ? A vampire ojou-sama and its imouto ? Why is this having "Eastern" on its title again ?

Is this why you use the hitbox patch?

[Bananamatic]

[Formless God]

This really has nothing to do with fundamental stage design or how the creator expects people to deal with the stages. There is actually a coined term for this in Japanese: playing a game the opposite of how it's meant to be played. It can be cleared without UFOs, but that's more or less a personal challenge. Like pacifism, or not focusing (excluding things like PCB and IN which actually reward players for not focusing). With a good understanding of UFO it's very clear of when the game expects you to have UFOs at a time, even if they're not the type you're wanting to collect. So you're basically being shoehorned into it. It's very linear.

Obviously if a game features a system/gimmick the player is expected to make use of it. I was merely pointing out that the majority of the game can still be "dodged traditionally".

Is this why you use the hitbox patch?

Nah, I stumbled across a fully patched game. Convenient.

[Hagane]

The entire Lunatic mode is irrelevant.

You have separate score boards.

[Elixir]

Obviously if a game features a system/gimmick the player is expected to make use of it. I was merely pointing out that the majority of the game can still be "dodged traditionally".

And this is where UFO falls short, I don't see any of the issues I've mentioned (stage design, bosses, difficulty, scoring system) in the, well, good Touhou games. And I was merely pointing out that you can no focus no vertical no bomb no miss no shooting EoSD Lunatic, it doesn't mean people are going to play by those rules. If it wasn't already apparent, ZUN has been trying to (and has even mentioned on his blog) replicate these titles from MoF onwards. Historically, artists hit it big unintentionally and then spend the rest of their career trying and failing to top themselves. It is no different here.

Nah, I stumbled across a fully patched game. Convenient.

Where can I buy this fully patched version of EoSD?

But inconvenient enough to invalidate all scores made with it. Personally, I prefer not to cheat.

[Bananamatic]

just go play Labyrinth of Touhou, it's actually good and you only play rpgs anyways

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Since when were background cues in Touhou games ever useful anyway ?

They're not because they are pratically none existant, that isnt to say that Touhou would be a better game if it had better backgrounds. Same goes for sprite cues aswell. Although from the replays ive seen of TH12 its does a better job than MoF & IN which have fairy popcorn and midbosses that look very similar.

[Erppo]

People say things like, "oh, Elixir, you should go back to Touhou. Heartbeam could use the competition." and shit like that. But I just can't, not like this.

I'd just like to point out that this is one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while.

[Sapz]

[Naut]

For the time being, normal. Can't go into lunatic right now as I'm focusing most of my time on a Sengoku Blade 2-ALL.

Considering that all Touhou games have separate boards for difficulty modes and characters, I don't see how Hard being the highest scoring mode would be a problem. And I will definitely play Lunatic since harder = better, of course.

I find it funny how someone who plays on a Normal level is perfectly happy with the WR being on Hard. Since IN Easy ends a stage early, would you skip it and play Normal? If Normal ended on the second to last stage in UFO, would you skip it and play Hard? Well, how is that any different from skipping Lunatic if Hard can achieve the WR? Maybe I should skip Lunatic entirely. I mean, it's irrelevant. I can just play on Hard. The entire Lunatic mode is irrelevant.

The current world record is on Hard because the player who got it is a fucking beast, and he hasn't bothered with the higher scoring characters on Lunatic yet. The WR was on Lunatic for two years. There is also more potential score in Lunatic mode because of more bullets to graze and a higher starting base point value. The mode isn't irrelevant, just nobody has pushed Lunatic high enough to compete with Shin's absurd optimization of Hard mode yet. By your logic, every mode in every game ever that doesn't have the world record is irrelevant. Futari BL Maniac? Why play? WR is on God, after all.

Also, didn't I link you to my no UFO collection (and no bomb) 1cc of Lunatic mode on IRC? Why are you still talking as if the game requires them at certain places or else you'll just die? All my deaths are even on the bosses, where UFOs are irrelevant. Hell, I don't even use any bombs to cheese through those tough stage portions that absolutely require a UFO to be spawned.

Please stop talking as if you know stuff about things you actually know almost nothing about. Not that this is new for you or anything.

[mesh control]

lol

Elixir's digging a hole

[Zetzumarshen]

People say things like, "oh, Elixir, you should go back to Touhou. Heartbeam could use the competition." and shit like that. But I just can't, not like this.

I'd just like to point out that this is one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while.

Should have been Shin instead of Heartbeam I agree.

[Elixir]

The current world record is on Hard because the player who got it is a fucking beast, and he hasn't bothered with the higher scoring characters on Lunatic yet. The WR was on Lunatic for two years. There is also more potential score in Lunatic mode because of more bullets to graze and a higher starting base point value. The mode isn't irrelevant, just nobody has pushed Lunatic high enough to compete with Shin's absurd optimization of Hard mode yet. By your logic, every mode in every game ever that doesn't have the world record is irrelevant. Futari BL Maniac? Why play? WR is on God, after all.

I was making an analogy which Hagane didn't answer - if something can be removed from the equation, will he bother with it? Of course Lunatic isn't irrelevant, I didn't say that. It's basically disheartening to know that scores above current Lunatic WR runs can be achieved on Hard.

Is there any particular reason why it hasn't really been pushed in two years? Unpopular? Black sheep of the series?

Also, didn't I link you to my no UFO collection (and no bomb) 1cc of Lunatic mode on IRC? Why are you still talking as if the game requires them at certain places or else you'll just die? All my deaths are even on the bosses, where UFOs are irrelevant. Hell, I don't even use any bombs to cheese through those tough stage portions that absolutely require a UFO to be spawned.

No, I'm talking about how the game has set cues of enemies where the game expects the player to have a UFO in order to rid the screen of bullets (as what I've been referring people to as "shoehorning"). There's no reason to do otherwise. The spinning blue orbs in the beginning of the third stage (which open right to left to right) are a good example, and I know you're going to say "well, it can be dodged", but the placement of the UFOs is way too obvious. Another example: the second stage, after the first influx of fairies, the orbs with suicide bullets and the larger fairy are positioned around 5-6 tokens that expects the player to have a UFO at that point. I don't think people actually understand that I can't stand the core gimmick, which the player is expected to make use of.

Your run proves my point. You don't collect UFOs, therefore it isn't necessary to put yourself in any danger in obtaining them. Stages are easier, bosses are harder. Collect UFOs and the reverse is true.

Please stop talking as if you know stuff about things you actually know almost nothing about. Not that this is new for you or anything.

This logic might fly over at lesser sites like Shrinemaiden, but not here. "I like the game and I know more about it than you" doesn't give me absolutely any incentive to bother with it. It's better to simply talk about one point I've made rather than the others, like the dull backgrounds, which you agree on. I have not actually seen a proper compelling argument beyond "ANCHORS!!!" or "I like bombing to juggle UFOs, it makes bombs useful!".

For the record, I can make it up to the fifth boss of Lunatic in <20 hours of play. I think I'm able to draw a conclusion. I have absolutely no reason to bother with this game because, like I keep saying, I simply don't enjoy playing it.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm pretty sure I could follow this argument if I had a billion seconds to spare. Unfortunately I don't...

How did we get from artistic themes to game mechanics? Or, rather, why? Is it "find the thing you don't like so you can bitch forever" season?

[Naut]

I was making an analogy which Hagane didn't answer - if something can be removed from the equation, will he bother with it? Of course Lunatic isn't irrelevant, I didn't say that.

What difficulty do you play on? If the answer is "Hard", I can understand you being fine with it. If the highest score is currently on Hard, why even bother with Lunatic?

How is "an entire difficulty being irrelevant", not a serious flaw?

Okay...

Is there any particular reason why it hasn't really been pushed in two years? Unpopular? Black sheep of the series?

It has been pushed, multiple times. It's just always been beaten by another lunatic run. This is the first time the WR has been on hard (which is mostly due to Shin being a fucking beast. Did I mention that?).

Also, didn't I link you to my no UFO collection (and no bomb) 1cc of Lunatic mode on IRC? Why are you still talking as if the game requires them at certain places or else you'll just die? All my deaths are even on the bosses, where UFOs are irrelevant. Hell, I don't even use any bombs to cheese through those tough stage portions that absolutely require a UFO to be spawned.

No, I'm talking about how the game has set cues of enemies where the game expects the player to have a UFO in order to rid the screen of bullets (as what I've been referring people to as "shoehorning"). There's no reason to do otherwise. The spinning blue orbs in the beginning of the third stage (which open right to left to right) are a good example, and I know you're going to say "well, it can be dodged", but the placement of the UFOs is way too obvious. Another example: the second stage, after the first influx of fairies, the orbs with suicide bullets and the larger fairy are positioned around 5-6 tokens that expects the player to have a UFO at that point. I don't think people actually understand that I can't stand the core gimmick, which the player is expected to make use of.

Yet at neither of those points is spawning a UFO good for score. You playing for a silly 1cc doesn't make you immediately aware of everything the designer was "intending." Sure, he probably expects people playing for survival to cancel them, it's obviously the easiest way through those points (much like it's the easiest way through absolutely everything in the stages). But he also knows that to get a good score you're going to have to dodge it, and it has been balanced as such.

Also, I perfectly understand you don't like the UFO mechanic, what I don't understand is why you keep posting about it as if we care! Just stop playing the game if you don't like it!

Your run proves my point. You don't collect UFOs, therefore it isn't necessary to put yourself in any danger in obtaining them. Stages are easier, bosses are harder. Collect UFOs and the reverse is true.

Collecting the UFOs would make it easier since I'd just spawn and kill them at all the points during the stages where there are bullets on the screen. I've never had a problem chasing them around. I find avoiding their irregular movements much harder.

Please stop talking as if you know stuff about things you actually know almost nothing about. Not that this is new for you or anything.

This logic might fly over at lesser sites like Shrinemaiden, but not here. "I like the game and I know more about it than you" doesn't give me absolutely any incentive to bother with it. It's better to simply talk about one point I've made rather than the others, like the dull backgrounds, which you agree on. I have not actually seen a proper compelling argument beyond "ANCHORS!!!" or "I like bombing to juggle UFOs, it makes bombs useful!".

Actually, I'm kind of hoping you stop playing it so you'd stop whining about things that translate to "UFO kicks my ass."

For the record, I can make it up to the fifth boss of Lunatic in <20 hours of play. I think I'm able to draw a conclusion.

I can loop Ketsui with <20 hours of play and I wouldn't dare argue about how the designers "meant" the game to be played.

[Jaimers]

Also, I perfectly understand you don't like the UFO mechanic, what I don't understand is why you keep posting about it as if we care! Just stop playing the game if you don't like it!

"It's... it's not like I WANT to play ufo or anything..."

[Elixir]

Yet at neither of those points is spawning a UFO good for score. You playing for a silly 1cc doesn't make you immediately aware of everything the designer was "intending." Sure, he probably expects people playing for survival to cancel them, it's obviously the easiest way through those points (much like it's the easiest way through absolutely everything in the stages). But he also knows that to get a good score you're going to have to dodge it, and it has been balanced as such.

Also, I perfectly understand you don't like the UFO mechanic, what I don't understand is why you keep posting about it as if we care! Just stop playing the game if you don't like it!

It might not be good for score, but it is something designed to clear the screen with, much like how certain patterns in Fairy Wars are meant to be timely countered in mind. Every single pattern in the Touhou series is designed with a linear path, as I digested and made tutorials for IN Lunatic years ago. The thread is still on Shrinemaiden. I don't think ZUN's stage design is any different.

Look, you know I'm an ex-player. You know that I've been hounded to get back into it. I thought I could get into UFO, but I really can't. It's not my thing. You're going to defend the game since it's your favourite in the series, let's just stop here.

Actually, I'm kind of hoping you stop playing it so you'd stop whining about things that translate to "UFO kicks my ass."

I know. I already apologized for sounding like a whining noob. But not so much as being able to deal with the majority of Lunatic without too much route memorization, but not wanting to. I think the difficulty is greatly overrated. I didn't play MoF and think "uh, ok, I died.. now I feel like exiting".

Look, the thread is about artistic design. Two and a quarter stages of the same background and no particular bosses I find unique, with patterns (except for the third Kogasa and second to last Murasa pattern) are anything that I find wanting to play. If you do understand why I don't like the UFO mechanic, then I don't need to give any further explanation. What I'm saying is, I find the game dull. Surely there's a particular game in a series you like that you can't get into. It's.. really no different here.

Also, I perfectly understand you don't like the UFO mechanic, what I don't understand is why you keep posting about it as if we care! Just stop playing the game if you don't like it!

"It's... it's not like I WANT to play ufo or anything..."

I want to play UFO but I don't.

[gray117]

Artistic commentary in any genre generally follows several key themes making them readily identifiable.

It certainly matters, but one of the most interesting and prevalent forms of artistry in shmups is actually reflected in the performance of play rather than visual theme. At this level; yes the value of visual theme is diminished as the value of an expressive performance is raised. However, neither of these exist in isolation, the interplay could often switching between the two making the artistic theme important.

I'd fairly confidently suggest shmups have a fairly broad range of themes in comparison to many genres, although their visibility and availability are somewhat less obvious these days. In addition, taking what I'd perceive to be your implied meaning; I'd say the genre does generally place more emphasis is upon performance than authoritative/implied narrative.

... It's a bit like looking for artistry in sport - it exists, it can even overpower events, but fundamentally the construct is typically lends itself best to the interactive performance.