Looking for 100% RGB Sync Leads

[BuckoA51]

Well to be honest I might not even have noticed that but I'll check later and see.

[MKL]

If you're so keen on trying various systems with C-sync why don't you use a scart in/scart out sync stripper instead of replacing your cables ?

Any idea where can we obtain such a thing? I tried Keene's syncblaster cable and I can confirm this does NOT work as well as using pure sync.

Once I put a sync separator circuit inside a scart FF adapter to test consoles on arcade monitors. I don't need it anymore so if someone wants it shoot me a PM.

[BuckoA51]

Tried my Model 2 NTSC Saturn (RGB with Pure sync to XRGB3 then to DVDO Edge) and I can confirm the picture was perfect, no evidence of the problem Fudoh posted.

[Fudoh]

thanks ! I'll give it a try on my model 2 asap.

[BuckoA51]

If you need pure sync on your RGB modded N64 I just found this information on MMonkey's page (scroll down some to find it):-

http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/rgbntsc.htm

[Rock Man]

If you need pure sync on your RGB modded N64 I just found this information on MMonkey's page (scroll down some to find it):-

http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/rgbntsc.htm

This is mondo needed, THANKS!!

[BuckoA51]

Anyone still looking for the rarer pure sync cables for the Saturn or the SNES, look no further, this seller has them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Saturn-s ... 0665089861
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Super-Nintend ... 0657586716

I'm grabbing a couple to review, my current Saturn cable that I modded myself is kinda cheap and nasty so can't hurt to upgrade at those prices.

[SGGG2]

I just received one of those; I get horizontal 'light' artifacts stretching across the screen from life bars and such. Saturn is a Japanese Skeleton model 2. The PAL cable I have works fine, but had the exact same problem when I modded the pinout for pure sync, so I think the issue is with the machine.

[BuckoA51]

That is odd, I'm using a modded PAL cable at the moment with my Model 2 Japanese Saturn (white) and XRGB3 and I've certainly not noticed that.

[Rock Man]

Report

Alright, so I've grabbed a couple of maxed sync leads for my game consoles. Said website was the supplier. I noticed clear differences in picture quality. These cables are ideal for tapping high-level RGB. Here are my findings.

All tests are done using a Plasma 32-inch VIZIO with converting from the XRGB-3.

SEGA GENESIS (Model 2)

I had to use the 2nd model. It was the only one every modder and their mother supported. That said I'm not sure about Gen2's video encoders, mine in particular reveals very soft yet disruptive jailbars a lla regular RGB cables. But as bad as they are, they aren't any where near dreadful as the model 1. I have 2 model 1 Genesis both shows dark, dissapointing jailbars. I assume this is a common thing with the Genny. At any rate I connected my fresh pure sync SCART in lieu of the standard one. It completely annihlated the jailbars. Not only that it's instrumental in irradicating mild flickering that occurs in picture. When I use the model 1/2 in normal RGB, in addition to the bars I am annoyed by a fickle rippling niche in random area's of the screen. I hate that. Thank god the raw sync cable took care of such a heinus issue.

That said, it doesn't come without it's problems. As great as CSYNC is vs. C-Video the former boasts a lot of lead shielding built inside the cable, to stuff visible noise distortion. While it does an adequate job. If I use a dirty cartridge or put in one of the later games. I'll get either flickering graphics at random spots OR erie whistling-screeching effect behind the sound. No biggie. This is remedied by A.) Refreshing the output. Personally, I do this via switch box but you can do this by changing outputs and coming back. B.) Leaving the game on for more than a few minutes. The problem auto-corrects itself after long. I only see this happen once in a blue moon. That's why I don't consider it huge just note worthy.

Also noteworthy, it helps the Sega CD. Not only that, but Sega CD unit for whatever reason doesn't illustrate the above concern. It's fine all of the time. I have yet to try the 32X but I will. Had to buy a patch cable for the model 2 since my model 1 cable is incompatible.

8/10

SUPER NINTENDO

Once again total picture quality is achieved. Before I got these cables I honestly didn't know there was any flaws in the SNES. But now I do. There is a very faint checkerboard effect that consumes the SNES using regular RGB SCART cables. This effect also appears in S-Video only A LOT worse. I digress. In anycase what the checkerboard effect does is scatter light and dark pixels all over the screen. While this IS problematic, it's subtle compared to the Megadrives/SMS stupid-ass jailbars. So the pure sync add-on becomes an added bonus for SNES. Ideal for clearing the artifacts scattered throughout the screen, it forgos with ghosting likewise improves on luminance. I was playing Tournament Fighters TMNT and couldn't believe the difference. Due to the vibrant colors and intense but balanced lighting it felt like I was playing X-Men vs. Street Fighter or something. Lovin' it.

10/10

AV FAMILY COMPUTER *RGB-modded w/ kit

I didn't do this one myself I comissioned someone to do it. I they used the same method everyone else uses discovered by Drakon & RGB32E if I know my RGB threads. PPU chip plus RGB kit = profit. As some of you may well know the Famicom still suffers from disruptive jailbars. The kit is known to reduce them IIRC. However they still appear much too strong thus hindering the signal. But there's nothing to fear the XRGB-3's LowPassFilter helps to reduce jailbars to a crawl. I barely notice them now. Okay, the reason why I'm explaining about those bars is so not to confuse about the OTHER interefence I recognized, there's a secondary problem in the video. It's the checkerboard mask, again. This time slightly worse they're MOVING. Transparent light and dark dots migrating across the screen. This occurs when regular SNES RGB leads are used. Don't get me wrong, the problem is anything but hindering. I can still enjoy 90 percent of the picture, however they can get distracting sometimes.

Now when those SNES pure sync SCART's are used on the Famicom. I couldn't believe the difference. It managed to fade out the lingering dots. Now they aren't all the way gone, there is still a meager trace left. Although... let's just say it went from 95 percent using RGB cables to 99 percent in high sync. You'd have to be really looking hard in order to spot them now. For some games it seems 100% dissapeared. Like whenever I play TMNT 3: Manhattan Project. I was actively looking for them while playing through the game, but no matter how hard I tried. I couldn't register them. Clearly these sync's are awesome! Additionally the cable seems to increase the lighting AWA quash ghosting. There aren't any color crawls either. Unlike regular RGB leads.

9/10

Conclusion! RGB SCART leads with RAW SYNC >>>>>>> Normal RGB SCART leads

CSYNC kicks so much ass compared to the flawed C-Video. It's a crime more of these aren't made for other consoles. I'm actively looking into replacing the remaining RGB enabled consoles (save for the 3DO) cable leads for pure sync. Starting with the Playstation. Now Fudoh, if you're reading this I recall reading the line on your XRGB-3's wikipedia regarding the Playstation 2. The signal gets dropped during lightflashes from SNK games (Kyo's Serpent Wave?) I'm told RS will take care of that. In addition when I usually have my PS SCART RGB leads hooked up. While the video quality is strong on the XRGB-3. Again I witnessed the checkerboard effect combined with more ghosting. The PS2 shows this even moreso than the SNES/Genesis which is kind of weird. My question is where can I get raw sync for PSX (older model, grey) and PS2?

P.S. Ordered a Saturn CSYNC cable a few days ago. Should arrive in the mail any day now. When it does I will report!

[BuckoA51]

It really depends on what hardware you are using but yes, pure/raw sync can make a big difference to the picture quality. The XRGB3 in particular seems to benefit from using pure sync. In other cases (e.g. the new XRGB Mini) it actually seems to make little or no difference.

Like you though, I've seen the strange distorted crawling pattern on certain parts of the image (usually certain colours) that is completely eliminated by using pure sync.

Wouldn't Retro_Access make a Mk1 Genesis pure sync cable? I've a pure sync Genesis here and with the XRGB3 the jailbars are virtually non existent.

As for the PS1 I don't think it outputs raw sync, so not sure how you'd get a sync cable for that, anyone any ideas? If this ISO launcher comes out for PS1 I'll be wanting to get mine down from the attic.

Oh, almost forgot, I tried to mod my Japanese RGB Modded N64 for pure sync according to MMonkey's instructions, but it didn't work, just didn't get a picture at all.

[ApolloBoy]

Hm, how big of a difference would using pure sync cables on an RGB monitor make? I use a PVM as opposed to an X-RGB unit and I'd like to know if it'd be worth it for an actual RGB monitor as well.

[BuckoA51]

Probably worth a try, especially if you see any of the weird picture artefacts (noise/dot crawl over certain colours), I'd try just one cable first rather than going mad and getting new cables for all your sources of course.

[Retro Access]

I've said this before, but I will make any raw sync cables with the caveat that it might not work, and you are responsible for return shipping if you wish to get a refund on it.

The Megadrive/Genesis 1 has an issue with certain TVs using sync. It may well have this issue with some converters. That is the reason I don't supply that cable on eBay. eBay can be an absolute pain with buyers, one guy gave me 1/5 for item as described for not stipulating that the sound wouldn't output from his SCART>YUV converter, like I'm some kind of mind reader who knows he uses this box which very obviously doesn't have RCA out for sound.

I will however adapt any cable for any console that is capable.

I am aware of the checkerboard affect with SNES. It doesn't happen with every TV. I know for a fact it happens though with Samsungs, some LGs too. It also happens with a modded RGB PC Engine using composite for sync. It won't happen with many upscalers, though I've heard one report that it happened with one. I even heard of a TV sold in the USA that has that checkerboard effect with s-video from the SNES.

The trouble with sync based SCARTs though is that there's a low amount of things they don't work with. It's safe enough for some consoles (the ratio is so low as to not matter and I can deal with returns) but not with others. In some cases the sync signal is weak and depending on your hardware you get dropouts. XRGB 3 copes well for example, but the Mini does not. If you understand this, then go ahead and order and request the cable be made with sync instead of composite.

[Rock Man]

It really depends on what hardware you are using but yes, pure/raw sync can make a big difference to the picture quality. The XRGB3 in particular seems to benefit from using pure sync. In other cases (e.g. the new XRGB Mini) it actually seems to make little or no difference.

Like you though, I've seen the strange distorted crawling pattern on certain parts of the image (usually certain colours) that is completely eliminated by using pure sync.

Wouldn't Retro_Access make a Mk1 Genesis pure sync cable? I've a pure sync Genesis here and with the XRGB3 the jailbars are virtually non existent.

I'm right there with you man. In my estimation maxed sync is vastly superior to normal RGB. We'd be cheating ourselves not to use it. But there are obstacles involved... hardware revisions can be such a pain. Unless your machine is a specific kind raw sync is not an option.

As for the PS1 I don't think it outputs raw sync, so not sure how you'd get a sync cable for that, anyone any ideas? If this ISO launcher comes out for PS1 I'll be wanting to get mine down from the attic.

Bummer, Fudoh tells me in a PM PS1 can't use raw sync. Which is ashame if true PS1 looks like it could benefit from it. There are these sloppy transparent dots crawling all over the screen. Raw sync would have been ideal. I wouldn't have any ideas regarding PS1, hell if I can find a method with PS2 I'll be satisfied.

Oh, almost forgot, I tried to mod my Japanese RGB Modded N64 for pure sync according to MMonkey's instructions, but it didn't work, just didn't get a picture at all

Well that's dissapointing news. As it turns out I'd been having sync problems with an N64 fellow patron RGB32E sold me. Thank goodness the case is isolated to one game Resident Evil 2, the stupid picture keeps blacking out whenever I enter the item menu. Also loses sync when fire is nearby. Must be an awfully flashy game. I came up with a fix I'm going to just stuff the N64 edition and buy the Dreamcast version. It's supposed to be better from what I hear.

Speaking of the Cast, you said the DC VGA Box can provide pure sync via 15/31 kHz mod. Tell us what's the results. Does it boost image quality like the other 3 systems I mentioned in my previous post?

Fudoh suggested I use this an LM1881 IC said it could achieve the same results we talked about. I'm in the process of Google searching it's capabilities. Would any one know if this is an external piece or does it require you opening up the cable to solder something?

The trouble with sync based SCARTs though is that there's a low amount of things they don't work with. It's safe enough for some consoles (the ratio is so low as to not matter and I can deal with returns) but not with others. In some cases the sync signal is weak and depending on your hardware you get dropouts. XRGB 3 copes well for example, but the Mini does not. If you understand this, then go ahead and order and request the cable be made with sync instead of composite.

Retro Accesories A.K.A PC Engine Gamer, we meet again. It's nice to be able to see you in places other than Ebay. Communication is rather sketchy on there.

Firstly, let me start by saying I admire your handy work. I've never had to return your cables (I've been buying from you for at least 2 years) because I already knew what I was getting myself into, never had a problem with them at all. Secondly, I'd be willing to gamble a CSYNC worthy NTSC Sega Genesis Model 1 & Sega Master System lead would be viable if you'll make one. No need to worry if it doesn't work, if it's alright with you I'll return it and then cover the shipping, hell I may even keep it. Because that's how far I'm willing to go for my SMS. Like I've said before I am boasting a powerful converter here. The XRGB-3. Even if compatibility is dicey with most other converters the XRGB-3 will improve the odds. Strongly believe it's at least worth a shot.

If you say you can adept any cable for consoles that supports it. You know the consoles I want. Playstation 2 (PS2), Dreamcast, Playstation (PSX, grey) if they are compatible. I would eventually like to get one for Neo Geo too. I have to get an AES system first. I have a CD, I'll gladly buy pure sync for NeoCD if the console takes it.

As for the checkerboard effect on SNES, like I said it only seems to occur on regular RGB SCART leading, not CSYNC. Although some displays this problem is circumvented. For instance I don't think it's noticeable on a regular PC monitor. I'd still recommend it the cable is a valuable asset since it clears those dots either way. They're ideal for the Famicom NES 2 mod as explained before. Using standard SCART's that issue exists on the AV Famicom/NES2 mod no matter what display you're playing on. So yeah I can confirm your cable works with the Famicom.

In a nutshell I need some sync cables for Master System, PS2, Dreamcast, and possibly NeoCD. Later on I'll recruit you for AES (early model I won't take a chance on anything above 85,000. I know all about the AES and revisions to the RGB encoders) and I'll be getting a pre-modded PC Engine Duo soon. I'll invest in a CSYNC cable for that too! Think I'm going to hold off on the Panasonic. I have no idea what kind of Arcade PCB was installed in my RGB3DO.

[BuckoA51]

Offer's still open if you want to sell on my site any time, Retro Access

[Rock Man]

Offer's still open if you want to sell on my site any time, Retro Access

Indeed, we're both fans lol.

[ApolloBoy]

The Megadrive/Genesis 1 has an issue with certain TVs using sync. It may well have this issue with some converters. That is the reason I don't supply that cable on eBay.

The reason why that's an issue with the model 1 Genesis/MD is because Sega screwed up with the PCB design and had the sync pin wired to the sync input on the video encoder. It's fairly easy to reverse this and wire up the sync to the sync output however.

[BuckoA51]

On the MD/Genny mark 1 you can either open the console and fix this problem or wire up a SCART cable like this:- http://playoffline.wordpress.com/cable/md1rgb/

Speaking of the Cast, you said the DC VGA Box can provide pure sync via 15/31 kHz mod. Tell us what's the results. Does it boost image quality like the other 3 systems I mentioned in my previous post?

Image is perfect at both 15khz and 31khz, an ideal mod if you own an XRGB3.

Fudoh suggested I use this an LM1881 IC said it could achieve the same results we talked about.

An LM1181 is a sync stripper, it takes composite video and outputs raw sync. You can put it inside a SCART cable or you can buy one in the shape of the Sync Strike. In my experience it rarely produces the same results (as good a result) as simply tapping the consoles raw sync.

Oh and finally it may be entirely possible to get raw sync from a PS1/PS2 I just don't know how looking at the pinouts. Last time I had my PS1 wired up it had that weird colour crawl pattern effect on the picture too so if anyone does know of a way to get raw sync directly from the machine do let us know

[Fudoh]

Using Luminance (from S-Video) as sync on a PS1 eliminates the dot crawl completely. It's easier to change the pins inside the system than modding a cable though (imo).

[Retro Access]

The Megadrive/Genesis 1 has an issue with certain TVs using sync. It may well have this issue with some converters. That is the reason I don't supply that cable on eBay.

The reason why that's an issue with the model 1 Genesis/MD is because Sega screwed up with the PCB design and had the sync pin wired to the sync input on the video encoder. It's fairly easy to reverse this and wire up the sync to the sync output however.

I'm aware of this, but the sync does actually work as-is with a few things, for example it works on my RGBS to VGA scaler so I'll probably be supplying direct leads for those at some point.

I had that same Samsung TV as mmmonkey that it definitely did not work on. I kept meaning to get around to an external solution but sadly I'm lacking that TV these days to mess around with.

[BuckoA51]

Creating the SCART cable I linked to supposedly fixes the problems with the Mk1 Genesis/Megadrive sync without having to open the console, though I've never personally tried it.

[Retro Access]

Well, that capacitor has to be present whether you mod the console or not, externalising the capacitor actually doesn't work by itself though, no.

Not on everything, at any rate.

Definitely does not work on the Samsung TV I was talking about.

[BuckoA51]

Hmm, well according to Fudoh this does exactly the same as modding the console for correct sync, maybe he can clarify then? Also, I do not believe my machine has the capacitor in the SCART cable.

[Retro Access]

Hmm, well according to Fudoh this does exactly the same as modding the console for correct sync, maybe he can clarify then? Also, I do not believe my machine has the capacitor in the SCART cable.

I'd be interested in checking the outputs with an oscilloscope to be honest. Because on at least one SCART TV, it doesn't work.

The capacitor in SCART solution produces nothing on those TVs. No picture, no nothing.

Now here's an interesting thing too. I had a spare Sony CXA IC, I tried running sync in, sync out through it externally (with capacitor) and lo and behold there was a picture. I never actually modified my console, I was trying to come up with an external solution. The pdfs for the IC do not explain what it does to the sync. I never got round to fixing this issue though, I had too many jobs queued for other stuff.

[BuckoA51]

Well, Andy at Console Passion here in the UK modified mine according to MMonkeys original instructions. I would offer to lend you it if you weren't quite so far away. I've not tested it extensively however, and the picture is a little dark on my DVDO Edge, since I've an XRGB3 I don't tend to really try the machines direct to the TV.

[Fudoh]

I can't talk for all MD/Genesis models and I can't talk for all TVs out there, but on all MDs I've encountered so far and all TV, monitors and displays I've used with them, modding the cable was enough. Who knows what's going on in all those MD revisions out there though

[viletim]

I know nothing about the vertical lines in the image that I read about here and on other forums. I have never seen them on a PAL Mega Drive when connected to an RGB SCART TV or Monitor. I can only assume is this caused by some flaw in the particular Mega Drive model or display/scan converter device. It not something inherent in using composite video as a sync source. If that were the case all TV stations, VCR and DVD players would have the same symptoms!

So, assuming the composite video signal cannot be used for whatever reason, the TTL sync signal must become the source of video sync. This is an unbuffered signal in the Mega Drive (1/2). It comes from the Sega ASIC and is connected to both the video encoder and the video output port. The video encoder must receive this TTL Sync signal, if it does not, none of the video output drivers will operate (no RGB, video, luma, chroma).

Here's a diagram of the relevant parts of a Sega Mega Drive 2 and TV SCART input.



The video encoder must receive a sync signal with a Vhigh of 2.0v minimum and a Vlow of 0.8v maximum.

I have performed a series of tests and recorded the results with an oscilloscope screen capture. The picture is a bit too large to display here in the forum.
http://etim.net.au/md2sync/MD2_sync_tests.png

If you look over the results, it is evident that the only configuration that will work reliably is Test Circuit 3. It is the only one which the sync signal at the encoder (> 2.0v high, < 0.8v low) and output (> 300mVpp) are within range.

Even so, I would recommend an active sync buffer be used if at all possible. Something like:


This would be able to drive a TTL sync input (arcade monitor, some versions of the Commodore 1084, etc) and a 75 ohm terminated video input (SCART, JP21 RGB, most domestic TVs and monitors) with no trouble at all. It can fit into a tiny space if the 74AHCT1G125 or similar is used.

The Megadrive/Genesis 1 has an issue with certain TVs using sync. It may well have this issue with some converters. That is the reason I don't supply that cable on eBay.

The reason why that's an issue with the model 1 Genesis/MD is because Sega screwed up with the PCB design and had the sync pin wired to the sync input on the video encoder. It's fairly easy to reverse this and wire up the sync to the sync output however.

The signal which comes from the pin labeled Sync Out on the video encoder is suitable for a 75 ohm video input only. It is essentially composite video without the video part. Any system which would be able to use this signal as a sync source would be able to use the composite video signal as well. The TTL sync signal is somewhat more useful in theory, but without a buffer it is of limited usefulness as-is.


Also worth pointing out is that if is just the chroma in the video signal which is causing whatever problem that using a video-less sync signal is meant to solve, it is very simple to remove it. The colour information is phase modulated at around 4.43Mhz (for PAL) and is easily removed with a 3.3nF or so cap between the video output (from the A/V port) and ground.

This is what it looks like. The video line is not exactly the same but it is close enough. Unfortunately, the video line selector in my oscilloscope doesn't work with non-standard video signals.

Normal:


Filtered:

[Retro Access]

Thank you for the information. The resistor/cap combo is actually compatible with the huge majority of TVs/upscalers (maybe 99%) - I rarely get any issues. Oddly though, the XRGB Mini only works WITHOUT a resistor (Genesis 2.) I was using a much lower resistor though. 75 ohms as it was what I had to hand. The buffer gives me a solution for those few people with issues, hopefully.

Are you measuring the Genesis 1 sync from the actual output of the Sony CXA IC (I always forget the model number) or the AV port which is actually connected to the sync input pin? What if anything is different in the AV output from your system vs the actual sync out on the IC?

Don't put yourself out for this, just asking for the benefit of others too.

The jailbar effect is pretty widespread and yep it's going to be some issue in the Genesis itself.

The Super Nintendo and PC Engine "checkerboard" effect using sync from composite is less common. Appears to be a weird reaction from certain TVs. I've no idea of the logistics of WHY these TVs (hello, Samsung again) do this.

I wonder if people should try pulling luma from the IC for sync and report on this.

I want to do it, but I am utterly swamped with orders as per. Equally with requests. If anyone here feels I am ignoring you, I will assuredly get back to you when I have a low sales day.

[Fudoh]

I know nothing about the vertical lines in the image that I read about here and on other forums. I have never seen them on a PAL Mega Drive when connected to an RGB SCART TV or Monitor

look again! Every MD suffers from this. I'm in a PAL country as well and I've seen dozens on MDs. The problem is caused by interference on the BLUE channel caused by the clock signal. It's less pronounced when the system runs in 50Hz instead of 60Hz, but it's still visible. But the usual caveats apply: if it doesn't bother you, don't worry about it.