The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I am to be taken very seriously. My username should be a firm indication of this. I also think it's more in the order of months rather than years given the periodic meltdowns I am prone to having after somewhat dormant periods.

I do consider some things people say, but I consider them on merit and not as some magic fix-it, because none of the advice I have been given has proved to be so yet.

[Deca]

On the real though, believe me when I say I honestly would love to see you clear Futari. Like, completely dead serious that would totally make an entire week for me.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Thing is, even if you can clear every stage on a particular game sometimes in practice (let's even say you can no miss every stage in practice sometimes) the chances of you doing all stages back to back is very small. It's in the order of 5% probable that you'll manage to complete a run. That's the luck factor.

You can never guarantee that you'll be able to no miss a stage (I doubt you can ever get more than a 30-40% no miss rate for any stage that is anything more than routine), and being able to no miss some stages is essential to compensate for when you lose 3 fucking lives on that stage you consider yourself to be brilliant at. Averaging out the probabilities over a run, you are aiming for that impossibly small chance that you'll string together however many stages it is without blowing all your lives.

Doesn't matter how good you are, the luck factor plays a significant role in whether you'll ever get that clear.

Tomorrows lesson: Looking in 16 different fucking directions at once.

This is, nearly word for word, what you've been saying for at least the past two years in nearly every thread you've posted in, just to be completely disproven by players who nearly immediately do exactly what you state as statistically impossible on demand. Please stop confusing consistency and endurance with luck.

It's no different from people who can consistently get scores of 200+ in bowling, or people who can finish an 18 hole golf course under par. No one calls people who can bowl or golf well lucky, so why do you insist on calling good shmup players lucky?

Also, your completely made up statistics sure make you sound smart.

I've actually only ever been provided with selected replays (and highly selective at that) and peoples word that they can so such-and-such on whatever game; that and people's untested predictions of what they can do. Almost everything I complain about comes down to how consistently you can clear certain sections or levels. I can provide you with a replay of me no-missing something, It'll just take me 100 attempts but I'll provide you with the one run where I did it, so that means it's do-able consistently does it?

The bowling and golf analogy doesn't hold because the margins for error are so much greater that little twitchy movements on a game-pad that have to be milliseconds long otherwise you fucking nudge something. The luck element plays a greater role in shmups because they are designed to be impossible to complete.

[dunpeal2064]

If you can provide a replay of you doing something, but it takes you 100 tries, that is not consistent. I have a video of me solving a rubik's cube in 18 seconds. However, my consistent average is 23 seconds. There was a bit of luck involved in getting an 18 second solve. However, many people have put years of work into speedsolving, and their consistent average is easily better than my luckiest solve. thats how this is working as well. I think this analogy makes sense, as most of speedsolving is really quick precise movement, and memorizing.

Doesn't it make sense that someone could do what you are doing with much more consistency? Or do you think you are as good as anyone would get?

[Bananamatic]

Live fast, troll hard

[Obscura]

It'll just take me 100 attempts but I'll provide you with the one run where I did it, so that means it's do-able consistently does it?

No-miss, no-bomb DOJ Hibachi run, please.

The bowling and golf analogy doesn't hold because the margins for error are so much greater that little twitchy movements on a game-pad that have to be milliseconds long otherwise you fucking nudge something. The luck element plays a greater role in shmups because they are designed to be impossible to complete.

Yes, professional athletes work within much greater margins of error than top shmup players and obviously have less skill and jesus why am I responding?

[Sapz]

I've come around to NTSC-J's way of thinking lately. This is pretty masterful.

[DrTrouserPlank]

If you can provide a replay of you doing something, but it takes you 100 tries, that is not consistent. I have a video of me solving a rubik's cube in 18 seconds. However, my consistent average is 23 seconds. There was a bit of luck involved in getting an 18 second solve. However, many people have put years of work into speedsolving, and their consistent average is easily better than my luckiest solve. thats how this is working as well. I think this analogy makes sense, as most of speedsolving is really quick precise movement, and memorizing.

Doesn't it make sense that someone could do what you are doing with much more consistency? Or do you think you are as good as anyone would get?

I think I'm as good as I'm going to get realistically. I could obviously get better, but the return will be massively disproportionate compared to the amount of time it would entail. I do not see why I am apparently so much worse than everyone else who claim to have cleared AKS on their third go, or say "DFK is easy" blah blah .. there's no reason why I should be and there's no previous evidence in anything else I've ever done that would suggest I'd be so woefully below "average".

That's why i think there are other things in play here.

I've come around to NTSC-J's way of thinking lately. This is pretty masterful.

We back on this again are we?

[moozooh]

and jesus why am I responding?

Isn't DTP good at it, eh? I feel like he's a test AI prototype designed to elicit a response, and even exert some effort while at it, when you don't even want to make it in the first place.

Whoever made you, DTP, is a genius, and I'm scared to imagine the possibilities of using something like you in a more significant context than playing shmups.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Ah screw this, I'm just going to sit in the corner and have a little cry....

[Obscura]

and jesus why am I responding?

Isn't DTP good at it, eh? I feel like he's a test AI prototype designed to elicit a response, and even exert some effort while at it, when you don't even want to make it in the first place.

Whoever made you, DTP, is a genius, and I'm scared to imagine the possibilities of using something like you in a more significant context than playing shmups.

He's easily one of the best troll's I've ever seen. He's incredible at walking the line between believability and total batshit insanity, AND he's good at using pathos other that pure anger, which is incredibly rare for a troll.

I kinda wonder whose alt he is.

[DrTrouserPlank]

and jesus why am I responding?

Isn't DTP good at it, eh? I feel like he's a test AI prototype designed to elicit a response, and even exert some effort while at it, when you don't even want to make it in the first place.

Whoever made you, DTP, is a genius, and I'm scared to imagine the possibilities of using something like you in a more significant context than playing shmups.

He's easily one of the best troll's I've ever seen. He's incredible at walking the line between believability and total batshit insanity, AND he's good at using pathos other that pure anger, which is incredibly rare for a troll.

I kinda wonder whose alt he is.

And this is based on what exactly? One day on a forum, seven posts and the second-hand opinions of a few forum members with some pretty delusional and paranoid thinking?

[Barrakketh]

He's easily one of the best troll's I've ever seen. He's incredible at walking the line between believability and total batshit insanity, AND he's good at using pathos other that pure anger, which is incredibly rare for a troll.

I kinda wonder whose alt he is.

And this is based on what exactly? One day on a forum

He has probably spent more time lurking, which is something you should try doing.

[Drachenherz]

He's easily one of the best troll's I've ever seen. He's incredible at walking the line between believability and total batshit insanity, AND he's good at using pathos other that pure anger, which is incredibly rare for a troll.

I kinda wonder whose alt he is.

And this is based on what exactly? One day on a forum

He has probably spent more time lurking, which is something you should try doing.

Oh come on, stop this constant DTP-Bashing...

[Annoyboy]

On the real though, believe me when I say I honestly would love to see you clear Futari. Like, completely dead serious that would totally make an entire week for me.

I'd love to see that too, but in video form with a voiceover so we can hear him talking about how lucky he was at every dense pattern and to hear the disbelief in his voice when Larsa kicks the bucket. Especially if it had a blooper/death reel at the end full of cursing and vitriol. Hell, I'd make something like that myself if I had decent equipment for it. We've all been there.

Edit: I remember seeing a copy of this video with Larsa footage put on the TV screen, does anyone know where I might find it?

[dunpeal2064]

On the real though, believe me when I say I honestly would love to see you clear Futari. Like, completely dead serious that would totally make an entire week for me.

I'd love to see that too, but in video form with a voiceover so we can hear him talking about how lucky he was at every dense pattern and to hear the disbelief in his voice when Larsa kicks the bucket. Especially if it had a blooper/death reel at the end full of cursing and vitriol. Hell, I'd make something like that myself if I had decent equipment for it. We've all been there.

Rob should do it

[Ed Oscuro]

We've been trying to encourage him for a year

You...what?!

Fuck that, I'm outta here

[BPzeBanshee]

Anyone playing XOP Black Ultra Special and versing the TLBs? The first one is piss easy once you figure out the trick to the final pattern, and the third one is straightforward till its final phase, but the second is bullshit. I've got it just about settled but I swear there's bullets with hitboxes not in the direct center but above ESPRade style. It's really making me want to throw the fucking monitor through the fucking window out onto the fucking grass and fucking throw chairs and eggs fucking hardcore style. [/GordonRamsay]

[DrTrouserPlank]

Anyone playing XOP Black Ultra Special and versing the TLBs? The first one is piss easy once you figure out the trick to the final pattern, and the third one is straightforward till its final phase, but the second is bullshit. I've got it just about settled but I swear there's bullets with hitboxes not in the direct center but above ESPRade style. It's really making me want to throw the fucking monitor through the fucking window out onto the fucking grass and fucking throw chairs and eggs fucking hardcore style. [/GordonRamsay]

I approve of this rage.

[Marc]

DTP, listen to me man, relax.
 
The truth of the matter is, by the sound of it, you’re pretty decent at these games already.  Want to hear a secret?  I’ve never cleared a Cave game.  Best I ever managed was the final level of DP and DDP back before I had kids and used to play regular.  Now, I’ve got three kids and between that and work, a really good week might mean I get maybe fifteen hours to play games.  That’s fifteen hours that – because I still love ‘mainstream’ gaming too (does FatCobra still post?), can be split between three or four titles (currently DDP:R, Crysis, Might & Magic: Clash Of Heroes and Flatout UC), meaning I might only practise my currently played shmup for maybe three/four hours a week.  Given the dedication some of the harder titles seem to require, it’s quite possible that I might never get a Cave 1CC (though I’ve got Futari on the way and I’m going to stick to that one game and see where I get), and you know what?  I’m fine with it.
 
I think some people forget while they started playing video games – to have fun (though I know that’s a dirty concept to some on here).  There’s enough frustration and aggravation in my life, without putting myself through more via something that’s supposed to be a release.  Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge (as I’d guess, do players like Sapz and Icarus – I imagine it’d be impossible to achieve that level of play otherwise), but occasionally it does get to a point where it’s simply becoming frustrating and I’m not enjoying playing.   Years ago I’d react the same way you seem to – I’d work myself up into joypad-smashing levels of anger, and feel pissed myself that I couldn’t seem to raise my game to the standard I wanted – these days I’ll go away, play something else for a while, and come back with a fresh pair of eyes, and a brain that isn’t clouded with anger (which NEVER helps).  I’m guessing you’re pissed because you feel that you are putting in the same amount of effort that some of the top-tier guys are, but don’t seem to be reaping the same rewards?  Relax, learn to have fun again and maybe the 1CC will follow.  Or, maybe it won’t, but if you’re not enjoying it either way, what’s the point?
 
And for the record, I’d love to see the ‘I did it!’ post from you.

[mjclark]

 I think some people forget while they started playing video games – to have fun

+∞

[Illyrian]

Anyone playing XOP Black Ultra Special and versing the TLBs? The first one is piss easy once you figure out the trick to the final pattern, and the third one is straightforward till its final phase, but the second is bullshit. I've got it just about settled but I swear there's bullets with hitboxes not in the direct center but above ESPRade style. It's really making me want to throw the fucking monitor through the fucking window out onto the fucking grass and fucking throw chairs and eggs fucking hardcore style. [/GordonRamsay]

I approve of this rage.

I want you to either clear futari and shutup about shmups being impossible, or just shut the fuck up and/or get murdered. Real talk

[Erppo]

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge (as I’d guess, do players like Sapz and Icarus – I imagine it’d be impossible to achieve that level of play otherwise),

This is the important part. I'm sure that everyone who has some kind of shmupping skill developed that mainly because they were having fun playing the games over and over again. I don't really believe you can get good by forcing yourself to practice against your will.

[nZero]

and/or get murdered. Real talk

Not cool.

[StarCreator]

and/or get murdered. Real talk

Not cool.

And this is much better?

a few forum members with some pretty delusional and paranoid thinking

This is above the fact that he continues to demand "proof" of well-known forum members' accomplishments, making it quite clear that he doesn't trust the forum as a whole. He has a comeback for everything that contradicts his worldview, and his repetition of the same sorry "it's all luck" and "it's impossible by design" mantras years after he first started chanting them make it clear he's not even trying to understand the opposing viewpoint.

I don't even understand why he still posts here, when he isn't even willing to consider any feedback because it so clashes with what he believes to be an absolute truth. At this point he's either here because he believes this entire forum has it all wrong and wants us to see the light, so to speak, or he's here only to be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic.

[Paradigm]

At this point he's either here because he believes this entire forum has it all wrong and wants us to see the light, so to speak, or he's here only to be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic.

It's the second one.

[DrTrouserPlank]

At this point he's either here because he believes this entire forum has it all wrong and wants us to see the light, so to speak, or he's here only to be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic.

It's the second one.

It's neither really, although if I have to pick one I'd choose the first to some degree. I naturally think that I am right to some extent; I wouldn't continue to hammer the same point if I didn't believe it.

As for StarCreator's post... the contention is that it does take some pretty delusional and paranoid thinking to believe that someone is importing (at considerable expense) and playing foreign hardware and obscure games so that they can come onto a remote forum and spend their time winding-up about 10 people by posting something that happens to be at odds to what people generally believe.

Stop and look at this rationally and tell me that it makes sense, or why (If I am purely here to provoke response) I wouldn't choose any of the other thousands of more populated, more mainstream forums to "troll" if that was how I intended to spend my spare time?

[Jaimers]

I don't even understand why he still posts here, when he isn't even willing to consider any feedback because it so clashes with what he believes to be an absolute truth. At this point he's either here because he believes this entire forum has it all wrong and wants us to see the light, so to speak, or he's here only to be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic.

Devil's Advocate
This style, named for the rhetorical method it employs, finds the troll taking a viewpoint that is opposite most of those within the forum, or in the thread. This method of trolling can range from quite simple (mere defamation) to complex (an actual discussion regarding the topic at hand from the Advocate's position.) Complex trolls of this method are rare, but are worth potentially millions of internets.

he's not even trying to understand the opposing viewpoint.

11. All your carefully picked arguments can easily be ignored.

[Skykid]

Let's hope all this persistent and beleaguering rhetoric is putting Trouserplank under the shadow of the ban hammer. I genuinely think it's time to stop talking about how shit you are at shooting games.

[Marc]

I've had a Planky night tonight. Maybe that could even be added to the glossary - a DTP: to choke for an entire session, and quit in utter rage? Anyways, I do kind of get where he's driving at sometimes. Let's take say, for us UK folks, footy. Now I know it's not 'impossible' for a Premier League player to launch a 40-yard screamer into the exact top-left corner nine times out of every ten, but I also don't think it's something that just anyone can learn to do, otherwise we'd all be fucking rich. I think with an interest as niche and - though it sounds wanky - underground as shmups, those that have been immersed for a long time generally underestimate the reaction of an 'average' gamer, and just how hard these games are, even the simple ones. I've shown CAVE shmups to friends of mine, around the same age group (34), that have grown up with gaming from C64/Speccy onwards, have 1CC'd the Fire Sharks, Gynougs, etc... and their reaction is usually one of total bewilderment. They genuinely can't process the number of projectiles on screen, if they luck their way through a few they think it's bad collision detection despite attempts to explain about hitboxes, and they find the whole concept of bullet hell a real mindfuck. In addition, while not impossible, of course those patterns are designed to fuck you up, that's the point. Myself, I find bullet spam easy, it's when thing start criss-crossing that my brain can't compute - see the blue pattern on DDPR's second boss as an example of what makes my head hurt. I think frustration sets in for some when you can't see the way through, full stop. Hell, I used to give myself grief after watching the like of (originally) Rob and Icarus, in addition (as in since I last frequented) there's now Sapz and Spadgy, and Elixr sounds like he walks the walk as well, but fuck it, I could sit here moping about my lack of skills, but I just like playing. Anyways, just some random musings after a few beers. Actually... a few hours free for gaming normally coincides with me opening a few beers. I'm guessing that doesn't help pixel-perfect precision.

Edit: Actually, a DTP is OK, but I've had a good plank tonight is even better for us Brits