Sony report $2.9 Billion Annual Loss

[Skykid]

^ Fair enough, but the ball's in your court now. I'll leave it to you explain to me why Shenmue is regarded as one of the best loved games of all time and Yakuza is barely considered one of the best games full stop.

[louisg]

^ Fair enough, but the ball's in your court now. I'll leave it to you explain to me why Shenmue is regarded as one of the best loved games of all time and Yakuza is barely considered one of the best games full stop.

Not to turn this into a Shenmue argument, but.. ok.. so that game was a total breakthrough in immersion, there was nothing like it at the time, it has obsessive amounts of detail, and the graphics/art/music are all great. But if you boil it down to its gameplay, what really is there left? It seems like a standard fetch-quest design but with a pretty exterior. And I ask this as a Dreamcast nut!

I *would* like to revisit it sometime; gimme an excuse to boot it up!

[Skykid]

^ Fair enough, but the ball's in your court now. I'll leave it to you explain to me why Shenmue is regarded as one of the best loved games of all time and Yakuza is barely considered one of the best games full stop.

Considered by who and where? Seriously, what kind of argument is this?

What?

It's not my job to rally everyone who ever considered Shenmue to be a benchmark title to this thread so you'll believe that its legacy is held in higher regard than Yakuza ffs, you can go and find that information for yourself.

Let's just leave it here shall we, if you keep coming back with questions like the above we'll be here for weeks.

[Friendly]

Shenmu isn't all that. I bought it upon release and didn't finish it because I didn't like all the waiting, and half the game felt like work.
It certainly was groundbreaking at the time, but it was also flawed. I don't feel like revisiting it myself either, because I am certain it has aged badly.

[neorichieb1971]

Shenmue was hard work for me also. Apparently I missed a great sequel as a result of the original grinding me down.

[Mortificator]

Games can't age, but people usually do. Shenmue was impressive to people at the time because the level of interaction hadn't been seen before. In prior games, exploring a room equated down to humping the walls while tapping the action button. Once the novelty wears off, though, it's easy to see there's not much substance behind it. You can't wow people with opening drawers twice, which is probably why the series died with the second installment.

Not that I'm praising Yakuza, understand. I've only played through the first game, but the brawling was only average and the story & writing were shockingly stupid. It's hilarious that "written by a real crime novelist!" was actually one of the game's marketing points.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Edit:

It's not my job to rally everyone who ever considered Shenmue to be a benchmark title to this thread so you'll believe that its legacy is held in higher regard than Yakuza ffs, you can go and find that information for yourself.

I deleted that post. Here`s my reply:

^ Fair enough, but the ball's in your court now. I'll leave it to you explain to me why Shenmue is regarded as one of the best loved games of all time and Yakuza is barely considered one of the best games full stop.

Shenmue(as louisg has already pointed out) was an innovative title that was unlike anything else at the time. It was a graphical showcase and a premier title from Sega. Add to this the fact that it came out for a short-lived system and it was the game to get with it and you have a perfect reason for its cult status among certain people.

And I don`t think that Shenmue is as universally loved as you present it to be. For every person I come across on the internet that professes his love for this game, there are ten more who think it`s the worst shit ever. Shenmue had very average sales in Japan and its sequel downright bombed selling almost twice as less - a testament to the first game`s appeal.

Not that I'm praising Yakuza, understand. I've only played through the first game, but the brawling was only average and the story & writing were shockingly stupid. It's hilarious that "written by a real crime novelist!" was actually one of the game's marketing points.

The first Yakuza is the weakest of the series by far. The second game was huge a improvement in every department.

[Skykid]

Not that I'm praising Yakuza, understand. I've only played through the first game, but the brawling was only average and the story & writing were shockingly stupid. It's hilarious that "written by a real crime novelist!" was actually one of the game's marketing points.

The first Yakuza is the weakest of the series by far. The second game was huge a improvement in every department.

Yet the third was excruciatingly slow.

Incidentally, I played Shenmue I & II many years after its release, around a year after the second game made an appearance on MS's Xbox. I enjoyed it thoroughly, even though there was plenty on the market that had superseded it technically.

Now that's just my experience of it. I have fond memories of playing through both games, and I can't say the same of any Yakuza I've endeavoured to play. They look similar, even play similar, but there's definitely something that makes one more accessible than the other.

Personally I wouldn't go back to Shenmue either, unless it was for a quick visit to the arcade - but then I never play anything approaching an RPG style game more than once.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Yet the third was excruciatingly slow.

How? The game opens up almost immediately. I think I spent 30 hours in Okinawa doing sidequests, romancing cabaret girls, searching for locker keys, playing mini-games and beating fools on the streets before proceeding with the story.

[Paradigm]

And I don`t think that Shenmue is as universally loved as you present it to be. For every person I come across on the internet that professes his love for this game, there are ten more who think it`s the worst shit ever.

It's never seemed that way to me, but I suppose you can find people on the internet who hate anything, especially if it's popular/held in high esteem. From what I can tell, there seem to be many, many extremely passionate Shenmue fans who've been practically begging for the promised proper third installment in the series for years now (wasn't there a huge petition a few years back?). A game has got to be doing something right to evoke that kind of reaction. I believe absurd production costs had much to do with it never materialising.

FWIW I loved both Shenmue games. I understand the criticisms people bring up, but to me the games were an experience like no other. I'm not sure I want to revisit them now just in case it taints the memories (though I'm fairly confident they had a certain charm which would still hold up), but I totally get what makes them so beloved by the almost cult-like fanbase they have.

I have to say Jonathan, you're coming across as a bit of a dick and a 'hater' (don't like the word but it has its uses). If Shenmue isn't your cup of tea that's fair enough, but don't go out of your way to try and shit all over it just because Yakuza isn't as highly regarded.

[Skykid]

Thanks Paradigm for that accurate summarisation. It's your thread now.

[Jonathan Ingram]

I understand the criticisms people bring up, but to me the games were an experience like no other.

Wait a second. So, yes, Shenmue is an experience - I already said so myself, in fact. But what does this have to do with anything? A few posts back, Skykid directly compared Shenmue to Ryu ga Gotoku and said that the latter was slow and had pacing issues. I pointed out that Shenmue was much worse in that regard. That was the subject of the discussion. In response I get bombarded with "It`s an experience!", "It`s regarded as one of the most loved games ever!" and "It has extremely passionate fans!". None of these are valid points when discussing a game.

I'm not sure I want to revisit them now just in case it taints the memories

It`s cool to be lectured on the quality of these games by people who don`t even have the courage to replay them because doing so might ruin their memories . And this right here is the difference between you and me. I played these games when they first came out and I`ve been playing them yearly ever since, so I think I can give a somewhat more objective assessment of them than you can, no?

If Shenmue isn't your cup of tea that's fair enough

I`ve played both games more times than I care to count. If I didn`t like them, I wouldn`t be replaying them now. I`m just not oblivious to the fact that they haven`t aged well at all.

but don't go out of your way to try and shit all over it just because Yakuza isn't as highly regarded.

It`s the second time the stupid "isn't as highly regarded" argument is mentioned on this page and I almost had to double-check I was still on the Shmups forum and not Gamefaqs. This is basically an equivalent of the "game A is more popular/higher rated than game B, thus game A is better than game B" argument that I`d expect to hear from a Gamefaqs user who has to resort to pointing out the game`s sales, the size of its fanbase and its Metacritic score when he runs out of any other argument.

But if you so insist, fine then. A very negligible percent of Ryu ga Gotoku`s sales comes from US/EU. There`s a simple fact that much fewer Western gamers have actually played the series compared to Shenmue which may give you an impression that the latter is more popular. But if you take a look at Japan, where 90% of Ryu ga Gotoku`s sales come from, you`ll see that it absolutely creams Shenmue in sales(and has been doing so since the first release), gets near perfect reviews from Japanese game magazines, has a huge fanbase and is present in all kinds of "all-time favourite" polls(unlike Shenmue). Does it mean then, according to your logic, that Ryu ga Gotoku > Shenmue?


Anyhow, you guys REALLY need to play Shenmue again. And maybe a few other games that you hold dear to your heart, but haven`t replayed in ages.
There are games with gameplay mechanics so solid that they still hold up very well after all these years - case in point Ultima VI-VII and Ultima Underworld. Others like Shenmue and Panzer Dragoon Orta - not so much, even if they still prove to be great experiences.

Thanks Paradigm for that accurate summarisation. It's your thread now.

Off to searching for sailors, I take it? Good luck to you... and more patience. You`ll really need it.

[R79]

Shenmue 2, masterpiece, Jesus, I loved that game. We had it in Japanese language with subs as well (on DC), soooo awesome. Was heartbreaking to see incredible games of such innovation (in terms of graphics, scope, and narrative), go largely ignored by the wider gaming public back then, many of whom had their sights set on the new (at the time) PS2, which really struggled for big titles until Metal Gear 2 came around.
Then of course, Xbox launched, and gradually Nintendo picked themselves back up, and, well, here we are, 2012...
Bottom line for me, if FF hadn't gone multi-platform, I'd be getting a PS3, uh, today

[louisg]

Anyhow, you guys REALLY need to play Shenmue again. And maybe a few other games that you hold dear to your heart, but haven`t replayed in ages.
There are games with gameplay mechanics so solid that they still hold up very well after all these years - case in point Ultima VI-VII and Ultima Underworld. Others like Shenmue and Panzer Dragoon Orta - not so much, even if they still prove to be great experiences.

That reminds me of when the Amiga was finally emulated and I was able to play through all those Psygnosis and Bitmap Bros. games again. I had remembered them as being the pinnacle of awesomeness. Well, the graphics and art were. But.. the rest.. yeah. I think from that point on I tried to look more at the core gameplay and less at the gloss.

[Skykid]

Panzer Orta is still great.

We had it in Japanese language with subs as well (on DC), soooo awesome.

Didn't everyone have it with subtitles? That was one of the best things about Shenmue II, aside from it being all kinds of awesome.

[BulletMagnet]

Didn't everyone have it with subtitles?

If memory serves, the US release on the XBox (the only one we ever got IIRC, someone correct me if I'm wrong) was dub only.

[xbl0x180]

Didn't everyone have it with subtitles?

If memory serves, the US release on the XBox (the only one we ever got IIRC, someone correct me if I'm wrong) was dub only.

Damn. That blows. One more game I won't touch due to s****y dubbing

[Skykid]

Didn't everyone have it with subtitles?

If memory serves, the US release on the XBox (the only one we ever got IIRC, someone correct me if I'm wrong) was dub only.

Ah, I knew there was a reason I kept my PAL copies. Shit, that sucks big time, the subtitling made the experience immensely more authentic (and immersive.) I loved Shenmue II.

Can't believe it didn't get a US DC release!

[neorichieb1971]

I have found PAL versions of Shenmue 2 in local import stores in the USA when I was out there. They all came with a boot disk.

Sega were awesome to make it completely pal60/ntsc or whatever.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Panzer Orta is still great.

Damn! I meant Panzer Dragon Saga. Panzer Dragoon Orta is still great indeed, as is Panzer Dragoon Zwei.

[Drum]

Anyhow, you guys REALLY need to play Shenmue again. And maybe a few other games that you hold dear to your heart, but haven`t replayed in ages.
There are games with gameplay mechanics so solid that they still hold up very well after all these years - case in point Ultima VI-VII and Ultima Underworld. Others like Shenmue and Panzer Dragoon Orta - not so much, even if they still prove to be great experiences.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but it's weird hearing it from a guy with a Snatcher avatar, kekeke.

[Jonathan Ingram]

I generally agree with what you're saying, but it's weird hearing it from a guy with a Snatcher avatar, kekeke.

Well, yeah, I like Snatcher. I really do. But I don`t have trouble admitting that, say, Beneath A Steel Sky and Blade Runner are objectively better adventure games even if I don`t cherish them as much as Snatcher.

[louisg]

I generally agree with what you're saying, but it's weird hearing it from a guy with a Snatcher avatar, kekeke.

Well, yeah, I like Snatcher. I really do. But I don`t have trouble admitting that, say, Beneath A Steel Sky and Blade Runner are objectively better adventure games even if I don`t cherish them as much as Snatcher.

There really is a big difference between liking a game and the game being objectively perfect (or even good). Those Amiga games I dissed a few posts back? I actually really like those! It's always great when the two match up though: favorite games that hold up well under criticism.

Was BSS by the Broken Sword guys? I was tempted to give Broken Sword a go on the Wii rerelease.

'course even if Snatcher isn't as good, it gets some cred for being so early (mid-80s computer game) and still being playable and well-liked decades later. Remember how bad a lot of those early graphical adventures were? The Sierra games were some of the better ones, and even they were pretty shoddy in parts. It's easy to take it for granted as genres get more and more refined and people learn from earlier design mistakes.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Was BSS by the Broken Sword guys? I was tempted to give Broken Sword a go on the Wii rerelease.

Yes, Beneath A Steel Sky is a Revolution game too. The PC version is freeware and is perfectly playable in ScummVM(as is the Amiga CD32 version).

And the Wii remake of Broken Sword is totally worth it.

[Skykid]

'course even if Snatcher isn't as good, it gets some cred for being so early (mid-80s computer game) and still being playable and well-liked decades later.

It's a great game still. Its age doesn't affect its ability to remain enjoyable.

[Estebang]

And the Wii remake of Broken Sword is totally worth it.

Except it's identical to the PC version of the remake, which can be had for much cheaper (and the original is better, anyway).

[Specineff]

I *would* like to revisit it sometime; gimme an excuse to boot it up!

Space Harrier and Hang-On at the virtual arcade?

[Drum]

I *would* like to revisit it sometime; gimme an excuse to boot it up!

Space Harrier and Hang-On at the virtual arcade?

Both of those games are dreadful.

[Ed Oscuro]

Shenmue 2, masterpiece, Jesus, I loved that game. We had it in Japanese language with subs as well (on DC), soooo awesome. Was heartbreaking to see incredible games of such innovation (in terms of graphics, scope, and narrative), go largely ignored by the wider gaming public back then, many of whom had their sights set on the new (at the time) PS2, which really struggled for big titles until Metal Gear 2 came around.
Then of course, Xbox launched, and gradually Nintendo picked themselves back up, and, well, here we are, 2012...
Bottom line for me, if FF hadn't gone multi-platform, I'd be getting a PS3, uh, today

I watched Shenmue 2 being played (edit: I'm sure I played at least the intro section, as well, but didn't go far into it). Didn't see the fun in carrying around books or driving forklifts. The details of places, sure, was nice but it didn't feel more adventurous or more unique than, say, running around in Morrowind's snap-in bits of architecture.

I *would* like to revisit it sometime; gimme an excuse to boot it up!

Space Harrier and Hang-On at the virtual arcade?

Both of those games are dreadful.

Another reason to be suspicious of Shenmue 2's idea of fun.