Input Lag of PS1 games on PS3?

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:45 am

I thought the PS1 hardware was integrated into the PS2 hardware? Those early NTSC PS3s had the PS2 hardware in them didn't they? Or was it some modified version with the PS1 hardware removed?

Post by **nZero** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:28 pm

bcass wrote:Those early NTSC PS3s had the PS2 hardware in them didn't they?

It's not modified, just not all of the hardware was transplanted. Only the EE+GS SoC used in the last generation slim PS2s.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:14 am

Had 2200yen left on my Jap PSN account and went ahead a purchsed G Darius, what a mistake. Lags like hell, what a shame. Then i went and got my slim Ps2 and thew in Taito Legends 2 and that lags to, wtf. I figured Taito legends would not lag being that G Darius is a Ps1 game. These old school games just dont translate well on these new tv's. Epsxe runs this game silky smooth in 1280x720 via my laptop with HDMI mirroring my desktop. These homebrew emulators are better than the Ps3's coded emu.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:24 pm

Have you got an early model PS3 that has the PS2 hardware in it or are you using the later models which used software emulation? Also, wasn't the Taito Legends 2 version of G Darius a different port to the PS1 port?

BIL · Post by **BIL** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:05 pm

bcass wrote:Also, wasn't the Taito Legends 2 version of G Darius a different port to the PS1 port?

Yes. TL2's G-Darius and Raystorm are direct ports of the arcade games, the sames ones first included in Taito Memories Gekan (NTSCJ PS2). The PS2 couldn't emulate the FX-1B hardware they ran on, so Taito ported them. This is why the PS2 versions of these games lack the PS1 extras (boss rush and arrange mode, respectively).

This was according to Empire Interactive on their official forums, some years ago. Unfortunately the page isn't up anymore.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:58 pm

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 94&start=0

Check my post for Empire Interactive official statement.

Right now i'm running a slim Ps2 and playing G Darius from TL2 via OpenPs2Loader using GSM to force 1080i. The picture looks great but there is no difference between 480i and 1080i as far as lag is concerned. I using a Panasonic G-10 plasma display with a low 10ms lag time. Is my TV de-interlacing and going to 1080p? Gotta keep experimenting. All my native 1080p X360 shmups seem fine.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:12 pm

Does OpenPs2Loader support Psyvariar Complete Edition Special Capture Box (NTSC-J) and Galaxy Force II Special Extended Edition (NTSC-J) yet?

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:20 pm

bcass wrote:Does OpenPs2Loader support Psyvariar Complete Edition Special Capture Box (NTSC-J) and Galaxy Force II Special Extended Edition (NTSC-J) yet?

Yeah, i'm not sure, check over at Sks apps they have a list compiled also check wiki

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:59 am

Had a good Google around, and just like the last time I looked into it, there doesn't seem to be any comprehensive compatability lists. I'm currently using an old (fat) PS2 with an IDE HDD via the Network Adaptor (and HDLoader). If I download OpenPs2Loader can I just burn it to a CDR and it will run with the existing games I've got installed on the IDE HDD?

ExitPlanetDust · Post by **ExitPlanetDust** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:36 am

Fudoh wrote:It's the usual emulation lag. Wireless control isn't slower than wired control. The PS3 control scheme seems to be a frame slower than the 360 for example (see SSF4 input lag tests).

The PS2 doesn't emulate the PS1. PS1 games are supported by the hardware and there's no lag on the PS2 when playing PS1 games.

Hasn't the whole PS3 SF4 test been chalked up to the port itself? There are other ports of games where the PS3 version has no input lag and the 360 version does. This all depends on the developer when it comes to current gen PS3/360 titles. PS2 and PS1 games when played on PS3 do lag, however. I have my PS3 Slim hooked up to a standard def CRT about 99% of the time and there is a definite input delay when playing PS1 games.

There is a reason I keep CRTs, PS1s and PS2s around.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:05 am

All these people complaining about lag - have you tried playing on a CRT? I rarely use my PS3 (even rarer for PS1/PS2 games) so it's not something I've ever noticed, but I do all my gaming on a CRT.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:22 pm

@bcass and anyone else interested

GSM mode selector

http://psx-scene.com/forums/f19/gs-mode ... ack-61808/

Her is the compatability list

http://psx-scene.com/forums/f150/open-p ... ity-62463/

Official install

http://openps2loader.info/8/usb_install.html

GSM works great but i feel it introduces lag being just a simple scaler and such

Jeneki · Post by **Jeneki** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:58 pm

bcass wrote:All these people complaining about lag - have you tried playing on a CRT? I rarely use my PS3 (even rarer for PS1/PS2 games) so it's not something I've ever noticed, but I do all my gaming on a CRT.

I have a launch 60 gig PS3. I've tried it on both HDTV using HDMI, and two CRTs using s-video and composite. I noticed no change in the amount of lag in the PSN version of R-Types; it's completely unplayable no matter which input or display I use.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm

That's due to emulation lag. Not only do you have lag from using HDTV's but also Sony uses an emulator to play those original PS1 games and it's not a very good one.

My solution was to run epsxe on my laptop using the HDMI out port on the side of the computer. The laptop outputs 1080p(built in scaler) desktop resolution 1366x768. The computer's scaler is fast and epsxe's emulation is very good, plus the games look amazing in HD. This really is the only solution with today's Tv's. When running Psone games on a slim Ps2 the games suffer from lag due to the display upscaling the non native resolution.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:42 am

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/201 ... problems/1

Good read here, explains alot. Emulation is tricky. NullDC runs lag free on my laptop, but ootake and Magic Engine lag TG16 games(go figure, the author explains why, saying lag is from win vista and 7). So Psone games have severe issues that even if they coded a quality emu they still have HDTV lag issues. Don't throw away your CRT.

Sony should not even be selling this junk at least the Wii has some decent emulation, Super Mario 64 anyone

Ex-Cyber · Post by **Ex-Cyber** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:31 am

There isn't really any inherent "emulation lag", but I gather that the platform differences and performance constraints tend to offer emulator developers a set of options along the lines of:

1) Accept tearing
2) Accept input lag
3) Accept dropped frames
4) Concoct some insane racing-the-clock in-process multitasking and API tomfoolery to avoid all of 1-3, at the cost of ~5 years of your lifespan due to sleepless nights and constant stress, that will probably be completely broken on Windows 8/PS4/Xbox 720/Wii U

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:54 am

http://community.us.playstation.com/thr ... 0&tstart=0

Sorry to derail, but this is definitely an issue in addition to the upscale. Sucks, maybe Digital Eclipse could have helped SCEA as they did a great job with SOTN. Also i believe Nick Salmoria (Mame dev) worked on the US/Uk release of Taito Legends for Ps2. They gotta fix this as these games still plays like crap on a crt.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:16 am

He should have looked harder. I posted about the aspect ratio issues with PSN PS1 titles in 2008 already: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=21372

The funny thing about it still is that the same title as a retail PS1 disc upscales differently than the same title on PSN.

D · Post by D » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:47 pm

Great thread
Please note that with 480p capable ps2 games playing on ps3 you´ll still have to activate the ingame 480p mode with triangle+cross while booting.
I also use GSM alot. It´s truly great, try it, it´ll blow you away.
Here´s another gsm compatibility list of mine
http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 25&t=30389

Obiwanshinobi · Post by **Obiwanshinobi** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:16 pm

lawnspic wrote:When running Psone games on a slim Ps2 the games suffer from lag due to the display upscaling the non native resolution.

Silm PS2 (or any PS2 for that matter) neither emulates PSX games the way this thread is about, nor it upscales their resolution whatsoever. SOME (very few) PSX games suffer from lag on the PS2 (most notably Zanac Neo), but it's got nothing to do with the upscaling (there's none). If there's any display-specific input lag (there surely is on LCDs), it's equally bad for PSX and PS2.

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:37 am

Does the PS3 apply any processing when outputting via component in 480i? It seems for the best image, assuming your tv has a decent internal scale, bypassing all PS3 deinterlacing completely by going native 480i via component and letting your tv handle all the work seems the best solution.

If this is the case why haven't I ever seen anyone ever mention it online? Am I wrong here?

HydrogLox · Post by **HydrogLox** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:07 am

I brought it up earlier this year in the context of PS2 classics on PS3 based on information from 2006. It can reduce the display lag introduced by the PS3 video enhancements but the emulation delay remains.

ACSeraph · Post by **ACSeraph** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:43 am

So how is the PS1 emulation on Vita compared to PS3? Does is have lag too?

HydrogLox · Post by **HydrogLox** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:46 pm

Rumor has it that on the Vita the PS1 emulator runs on top of the PSP emulator - though I seem to recall some allusion to running the PSP emulator at higher than standard speed in order to reduce the lag of the PS1 emulator (not even sure if that makes any sense); getting definitive information doesn't seem to be easy. Seems the Vita is less laggy than the PS3 but apparently "Hot Shots Golf 2" remains unplayable on both.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:08 pm

Its been a while and i still have some slim hope of playing these on my console instead of a pc setup just for convenience. Ootake author has a few suggestions. Seems like good advice and at the very least might be able to offset some of the emulation lag via post processing reduction.

http://www.ouma.jp/ootake/input-lag-ps3.html

scrilla4rella · Post by **scrilla4rella** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:30 am

^ Interesting read, the author basically says that you should use a USB cable to connect your controller to the PS3, turn off the rumble feature, set the upconverter (or whatever it's called in English) to "normal", and turn on smoothing.

For me, the input lag on PS1 shmups running on PS3 is a huge problem, so much so that I'm considering dropping the big $$ on Zanac X Zanac. It'll be interesting to see if the above suggestions help.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:15 am

Another thought is to match native resolution as best you can, sometimes the tv scaler can be faster. I use a Samsung 32 lcd with 1366x768 native. In this situation unless u disabled the ps3 upconversion for psone classics both the console and tv scale simultaneously. I love all the new tech but unfortunately the lag breaks alot of classic games despite looking prettier. The new Epsxe is a good example with the two new interal graphic cores.

Dr. Neo Cortex · Post by **Dr. Neo Cortex** » Wed May 17, 2017 4:42 pm

I hope this thread isn't too old to get up but it's exactly the topic I'd like to ask some questions. I've already googled and read a lot about this topic but I haven't got THE clear answer yet. Also I'm not a native English speaker, so I just try my best.

I was looking for a way to play PS1 games on my Samsung HDTV (no comments on that please... it's still a lot better than using emulators!) and tried it on a PS3. I was actually pleasantly surprised about the picture quality cause I think it's actually quite alright, of course I didn't expect it to be HD.

What bothers me is that input lag thing. At first it was just horrible, then I found the gaming mode in my TV settings and it made it just dramatically better, so there's not that much input lag left. Though, I've found that there's a "natural" lag from the PS3 emulator that you cannot avoid at all. That sucks!

I was thinking about getting a cheap PS2 (already got the component cables) to test if I notice the difference when there's not input lag all. I want the games to play the best way possible (on a HDTV). But a few questions remain:

1. PS2 and PS3 seem to have very different upscaling/smoothing options. I've read so many different opinions on which one is better. Some say the PS2 filter is much better, others say it doesn't make any noticable difference at all. Can some EXPERT here tell me what's up with this? I think the PS3 smoothing options has really good results, especially for text. Is the PS2 smoother even better?
2. The user Fudoh who I think has great knowledge about the topic says that all PS2 types use PS1 hardware for emulating PS1 games. But I've also read this thread in another forum:
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/915821- ... 2/69699428
It says (user Spikeyass, his second post) that the PS2 slim versions DON'T use the PS1 hardware for emulating. What's correct? Do Slim PS2s have different emulating? Is there any chance they also got natural lag (like the PS3)? It's really important for me since I want to get the best PS2 type for playing PS1 games and avoid input lag completely. But I don't know about the differences yet.

Thanks already!

shmups.system11.org

Input Lag of PS1 games on PS3?

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