Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

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TrevHead (TVR)
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Kaiser wrote:
BPzeBanshee wrote:Rebooting the genre, MY ASS! :roll:
Fixed that for you!
Theres so much negativity in this thread, especially in a thread where the developers are active in. I think everybody is too used to playing CAVE's games that we look upon any thing that tries to be a different as a trainwreck. Those who played the game at expos say its fun so lets atleast play the demo first before deciding that the game sucks,
Weak Boson wrote:Not a massive fan of suicide bullets. It's hard to tell - are they aimed or not?
Im not a lover of suicide bullets myself and was worried when you mentioned it, as if its done badly like in Jamestown, can really break the game for me.

However looking at the vid it looks fine to me as there isnt alot of it onscreen. I think that the player ships having a narrow spread of fire helps keep it under control. Other shmups that use suicide bullets tend to have player ships with very wide spread of fire which quickly fills up the screen with bullet spam, like playing hardest difficulty of Jamestown with the slow (DDP blue ship type) moving beam ship (yuk)

@Rieker, Im liking what I see so far. Hell you might even get me to enjoy a game mode with suicide bullets in it, if thats not ground breaking I dont know what is :lol:
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mice
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by mice »

What TrevHead said.

As long as the screen-shaking can be turned off, I'm so totally going to get this.
And I'm only going to play it on easy, credit feeding and just have a blast.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by MR_Soren »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:Theres so much negativity in this thread, especially in a thread where the developers are active in. I think everybody is too used to playing CAVE's games that we look upon any thing that tries to be a different as a trainwreck. Those who played the game at expos say its fun so lets atleast play the demo first before deciding that the game sucks

Can't speak for everybody, but in my specific case I was only mentioning the things I don't like. Screen shake, twitchy bullets, and possibly the pacing. I think a lot of people are hoping that pointing out what they don't like gives it a chance to be adjusted before release.

Positive? I like the look, the game mechanics sound interesting, and I've already decided I'll buy it.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Yeah you have a point bud, I was just picking up on the general tone of the thread, but re-reading many are just voicing their personal preferences. I just worry that when the game releases ppl will be approaching this game in a negative state of mind, looking for faults in the game rather than just enjoying it.
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Marc
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Marc »

It is pretty negative. It's a new shooter. at (I'm guessing) a pretty decent price for the level of polish that seems to have gone into it. I think some have never experienced shelling out crazy prices for imports or flickery SNES conversions.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by kid aphex »

Theres so much negativity in this thread, especially in a thread where the developers are active in. I think everybody is too used to playing CAVE's games that we look upon any thing that tries to be a different as a trainwreck. Those who played the game at expos say its fun so lets atleast play the demo first before deciding that the game sucks,
Yes

For a shmups forum, there is a tremendous lack of interest/love/respect in any shmup produced that doesn't toe the Cave line
I'm starting to understand why the genre is dying: Lack of support ... even from the supposed die hards
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Estebang »

I'm disinterested in this game because it looks mediocre, not because it isn't TEH CAVEZZ. That's a stupid generalization to make.
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TheSoundofRed
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by TheSoundofRed »

The one thing the trailer lacked for me is any mention of the scoring system. The screen shaking is problematic as I could see it giving me some serious nausea, so good that it's an effect that you can disable.

I'll definitely be picking this up on release. I would like a bit more information regarding the scoring though... or has that already been covered?
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by dpful »

I wish I could have played it more at pax. I hope I get a chance to play it when it comes out the game was excellent!! ......and a little unlike anything I'd played before as far as the genre goes. Maybe are matrix or ddp's as far as the sense of urgency (which was the best/freshest thing about it)
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BPzeBanshee »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:Yeah you have a point bud, I was just picking up on the general tone of the thread, but re-reading many are just voicing their personal preferences. I just worry that when the game releases ppl will be approaching this game in a negative state of mind, looking for faults in the game rather than just enjoying it.
If I end up doing this on release it'll be because I do the same thing with every game I check out, regardless of whether it's CAVE or not. The actual logic behind my concerns have been stated before in this thread.

Consider this TrevHead - Kaiser and I seem pessimistic about Sine Mora 'rebooting the genre' for a reason. Remember Mactabilis?

Also, you guys are quoting me and complaining about Cave fanboyness to a guy who puts them on 3rd place to Seibu Kaihatsu games. :P
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bcass
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by bcass »

The wobling bullets are a little concern, but you know what would annoy me more? If those three company logo screens weren't skippable when the games loads. I will be seriously pissed if you have to sit through them.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by kid aphex »

Estebang wrote:I'm disinterested in this game because it looks mediocre, not because it isn't TEH CAVEZZ. That's a stupid generalization to make.
Cool, well
As just one member of the forum, and your opinion concerning this title is pretty insignificant relative to my observation
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by kid aphex »

bcass wrote:The wobling bullets are a little concern, but you know what would annoy me more? If those three company logo screens weren't skippable when the games loads. I will be seriously pissed if you have to sit through them.
Yeah, that trend is getting annoying, especially since middleware is becoming so ... necessary
The recent Asura's Wrath DEMO had 7 or 8 logos
They should be a one time thing, or consolidated to a single splash
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Kaiser »

My main reason that I complain is that the marketing is too ahead of itself. You don't take a genre and reboot it, you would need to have a revolution to do that and not get your butt kicked. Then again the production values would be too high and that there's not many ways the genre can be improved except making the branched paths a daily norm. Now if you only marketed the features that are in game including cool bosses and that, it would be fine. Never ever promote your game better than what it is.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Reiker »

TheSoundofRed wrote:I would like a bit more information regarding the scoring though... or has that already been covered?
Sorry for the long post - I'm pasting the "How to play" document from the game.


BASICS

Sine Mora is a horizontal side-scrolling shooter, a so called shoot'em up (STG). The player's airplane is viewed from the side and the stages are presented in cross-section, so the airplane appears to be flying through the backgrounds. The scrolling in the game is continuous, such that the player is led through a stage by the game.

On occasions there is also a degree of freedom, when the player can move up or down on the playing area, which can be taller than the screen. The focus is almost entirely on annihilation of the various enemy units. Also, the player must navigate through the environment, as invariably contact with the various background elements results in the death of or damage to the player's airplane.

Most importantly, Sine Mora is a shooting game with time extension based progress.


GAME SYSTEM

Shoot down enemies to add time to the counter. If you get hit or collide, you receive a time penalty. Each stage has several checkpoints, where the timer is reset – your time mass will be stabilized. Your goal is always to get to the next checkpoint.

You are able to upgrade your primary weapon in 9 steps. Primary weapon upgrades are permanent.

Use your sub-weapon to damage particularly strong enemies. It can be also very useful to control the chaos surrounding you, but always keep in mind: your sub-weapon stock is limited.

Use time manipulating capsules to your advantage: Story mode is limited to the Speed Up capsule, which slows down the time around you for a short while. Arcade Mode adds variation with two additional capsule types. In each mode, your capsule pool is limited.

Pick up the floating power-up tokens. These can upgrade your primary weapon, replenish your sub-weapon stock and capsule pool or have other useful purposes.


ADVANCED

Arcade mode has an additional game element: the Rank System.

Player rank is indicated below the score counter on the HUD. There are three different ranks: C, B and A. Every new play session starts with a C rank and playing through the game will slowly raise the rank to B then A automatically.

The player is also able to speed up the rank change by various actions (holding the fire button, picking up specific power-up tokens, etc). Enemy resistance is more fierce on a higher rank: they release more bullets which can reach the player much quicker.

If the player is using a sub-weapon, a capsule or is hit, the rank meter will drop down a bit. However, the more time you spend on a higher rank, the more bonus score you'll receive at the end of the stage.


SCORING

Each enemy destroyed will reward the player with score. Remaining time at the checkpoints is also converted.

If the achieved score is higher than the player's previous score, it will be uploaded to the respective leaderboard.

Consecutive kills can raise the score multiplier. This multiplier is nullified if the player decides to use a sub-weapon, a capsule or is hit by enemy fire.

Players are also able to collect score tokens during the game and build up a token-chain, as the value of these tokens will raise upon successful collection. If a floating score token is missed (the token permanently leaves the screen), the chain will broke – the next token that appears will have the minimal value again.

Additional – bonus – score can be gained at the end of the stages, based on player performance (hit ratio, number of hits taken, etc).


GAME MODES

STORY MODE
Play through the story from the beginning to the end. Finishing every stage on Challenging difficulty unlocks an alternative narration and a chance to see the true ending. You are also able to start the game from any previously unlocked stage and continue to the end from that point.
On Normal difficulty, initially you have 8 chances to continue.
On Challenging difficulty, initially you have 5 chances to continue.

ARCADE MODE
Play the game from the beginning to the end. This game mode is focused on action – the story-related cutscenes are not included.
On both selectable difficulties you have only 3 chances to continue.

SCORE ATTACK
Tailored for short play – you are able to select any previously unlocked stage in this mode. When finishing a stage, you do not proceed to the next stage. Also, you are not able to continue after death.

BOSS TRAINING
You are able to practice previously encountered boss enemies in this mode.
Continue stock is unlimited.
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MR_Soren
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by MR_Soren »

^ That makes the game sound very interesting.

Question, will there be individual leaderboards for each score attack stage?

Thanks.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Special World »

I really like that the game contains rank, and that there are a variety of modes to suit quick or long sessions.

I do have one question, though: Is there anything about the time-based scoring that lends the game a quality that other games lack?

You say that the timer is increased by killing enemies and decreased by being hit. That's good, but it sounds like it would lead to the same gamplay as any other game. In every STG, you want to kill all the enemies and avoid being hit. If you're doing that, the timer seems very arbitrary. Do you get extra time bonuses for killing normal enemies when at a high rank? Are there more enemies? Do enemies appear more quickly if you kill their predecessors more quickly? How it seems to me is that if you're killing all the enemies and not getting hit, which you would be doing anyway in *any* STG, then the crux of scoring is just killing the boss quickly, which you'd *also* do anyways in any STG that doesn't involve boss milking. The game looks like a very quality product, but if all this is the case, then it really doesn't have any added scoring depth of its own, rather, it just encourages you to play it the same way you'd play any standard STG.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by dpful »

If I may (from my brief experience with the game), the enemies are dificult to kill before they get off screen, (like trying for a 100% on viper phase 1 or under defeat is hard), they are frightening to kill (they explode in a splash of wiggle bullets), and if you miss enemies, the timer hits 0 and you explode.
So youre frantic to not let enemies get away, scared to kill them (especially as they get close), and tempted to let them slip by, while knowing that every single enemy could be required to keep the counter off zero. When I played, the counter seemed to hover in the 1 to 3 second range the whole level.
That perpetual 2or 3 seconds to live unless i aggressively attack thing is what drove the game.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Jeneki »

Interesting. Oddly enough, when I think of lives subtracting time, I think of Ai Cho Aniki. :oops:
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Pharos »

Image

I'm a sucker for cyberpunk so I'm going to have to buy this now.

Some more new screens posted here
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by kid aphex »

Great visual style
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Zorator »

Kaiser wrote:Never ever promote your game better than what it is.
Really now? Isn't that contrary to how most games are advertised?

I haven't been paying attention to the marketing or hype, so I'm still looking forward to the game. Any claim of revolutionizing a genre should be taken with a grain of salt, for any game. If it isn't the best or most innovative game ever I'm not going to disregard it, because I never expected it to be in the first place.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Bloody hell that's some abnormal resolution they've got going there. Looks very nice but if those are in-game and not indev mockups I think even widescreen TV users are going to have black bars or something strange happening at that rate. :?
Zorator wrote:
Kaiser wrote:Never ever promote your game better than what it is.
Really now? Isn't that contrary to how most games are advertised?

I haven't been paying attention to the marketing or hype, so I'm still looking forward to the game. Any claim of revolutionizing a genre should be taken with a grain of salt, for any game. If it isn't the best or most innovative game ever I'm not going to disregard it, because I never expected it to be in the first place.
You're assuming that advertising a shmup is the same as advertising anything else, which it isn't. Cave certainly haven't made any 'revolutionary' claims and they're probably the only company alive today who actually could claim such, but they'd be getting backlashes even then.

Kaiser's concern (which I share) is that the kind of hype being used here is exactly the kind that a lot of failed shmups in the past have used (look up Broken Thunder and Mactabilis), while the successful ones have not pulled any such crap, therefore Sine Mora taking the 'hey look at us reviving shmups' marketing hype method is signalling alarm bells that they're going to be doing anything but.

I for one have decided I will have a go at the trial/demo as soon as it hits XBLA, even if I can't see shit thanks to the lack of 4:3 aspect, and see whether it's a complete mess or a brilliant piece of work.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Demetori »

I'll exclusively express my disinterest in 'exclusive' titles. Wait, I just can't afford an XBOX 360... and I don't want to buy one just for a couple of franchises. Was so excited earlier on in the thread too. :(

Was it answered earlier on in the thread as to why it's not on PSN anymore? Because the images posted way back had PSN logos and what not. Or did Microsoft just rub some cash on their noses, "Hey guuuuys.".
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Reiker wrote:On occasions there is also a degree of freedom, when the player can move up or down on the playing area, which can be taller than the screen. The focus is almost entirely on annihilation of the various enemy units. Also, the player must navigate through the environment, as invariably contact with the various background elements results in the death of or damage to the player's airplane.

Most importantly, Sine Mora is a shooting game with time extension based progress.
Ehh.

I suppose collision-avoidance is fun if done right (Omega Boost anybody?) but that doesn't sound right.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Zorator »

BPzeBanshee - I get what you are saying about the precedents for this type of language and you're right to have that alarm but it seems to me that those marketing claims are directed at people who don't play shmups much or at all, folks who might be intrigued by the fact that it's developed by Suda 51/Grasshopper but have reservations about old school genres. People that might need to be told that it's revolutionary to take the plunge and buy the game before reviews are in.

Another possible scenario is Suda or the people around him actually think it is something special or revolutionary, either due to being out of touch with what arcade gamers are into nowadays or just being up his own ass.

My general philosophy is to judge games for their content independent from hype, and not for the content weighed against the hype created for them. Whether it's conscious or not, it may be harder to do that if you do follow hype/gaming press but I generally avoid that stuff so the attitude works for me. From what I've seen quoted on here, the marketing is indeed ahead of itself but I don't think people should hold that fact against the game.

I'm expecting an enjoyable romp, maybe with some deeper elements in non-default settings or modes, but I'm also leaving room for Suda to surprise me.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by tommyb »

Major, major Yagawa influence here is quite obvious.

I'm very excited for this. I love shmups and I love Suda51. You people are ridiculous for hating on absolutely anything that comes otu right off the bat.

I get the argument of "well they can't say they're revolutionizing the genre". Who gives a shit if they say that? Let them think what they want about it. If every developer thought this, it'd be a great thing and we'd see a lot of new, varied shmups. It's amazing that a new developer is even putting this much time and money into a polished shmup and the only thing you people have to say about it is "Well they're making claims. Won't buy. Will suck."

Who gives a shit about the claim? The game looks cool. If you don't think it looks cool, don't play it. But not playing it because of all this whiney bullshit about them making claims they "can't live up to?" Get over it. Just don't expect many new things to play in the genre we all love.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by chempop »

Thanks Pharos, those pics look amazing.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Demetori wrote:I'll exclusively express my disinterest in 'exclusive' titles. Wait, I just can't afford an XBOX 360... and I don't want to buy one just for a couple of franchises. Was so excited earlier on in the thread too. :(
There is a good chance this will come to the PC later down the line going by the fact DR was originally a PC dev house plus Skydrift and Dead Block came to PC after a spell of XBLA exclusivity.
Personally I wouldnt hold it against XBLA devs, as MS is known for bullying devs into make their game xbla exclusive


As for that screenshot, it has me watering at the mouth, when was the last time we had a shmup with 3D art as good as this?
Bloody hell that's some abnormal resolution they've got going there. Looks very nice but if those are in-game and not indev mockups I think even widescreen TV users are going to have black bars or something strange happening at that rate.
Do black bars appear during a cutscene in this game? If so they are probably just chopped off
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BPzeBanshee »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:
Bloody hell that's some abnormal resolution they've got going there. Looks very nice but if those are in-game and not indev mockups I think even widescreen TV users are going to have black bars or something strange happening at that rate.
Do black bars appear during a cutscene in this game? If so they are probably just chopped off
I've seen games put black bars in during cutscenes for that 'cinematic' touch which isn't so bad but one of those screenshots look like actual in-game footage as opposed to a cutscene, which is what concerns me. I'm probably overworrying though - another one of those appeals to the average gamers with their superwidescreen HDTVs etc.
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