Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

[Special World]

I find DFK absolutely maddening. People say it's a really easy 1CC, but imo that's only with Bomb or Strong, which really feel cheap to me. I don't get any sense of satisfaction out of beating the game with those ships, much as I wouldn't get satisfaction out of beating a game on twenty credits. Power seems extremely challenging to me, though it could be partly that the 4-button scheme and mode-switching requires me to constantly second-guess what I'm doing.

The scoring is extremely punishing for new players too, imo. The feeling of working toward your chain only to have it break once you have a hyper in stock is incredibly frustrating. Other Cave games fluctuate a lot in my personal rankings, but I'd say DFK 1.5 is definitely my least favorite.

I'm happy about this apparent return to a 3-button, classic DDP style. I find the Dodonpachi series to be pretty mediocre compared to Cave's other games, but I do respect the earlier titles for their simple shooting fun. DOJ is a great survival challenge, even if I'm balls at scoring and don't think much of it.

Just my two cents on the matter, to hopefully reroute the conversation. I'll try playing DFK 1.5 every once in a while to see if it clicks, but I really just don't feel it at all.

[EPS21]

Any new videos or news on loc test so far? Thread size seemed to double since I last checked I fear its just people complaining about the game and sai-lolis

[Paradigm]

It's funny that you see it that way, since I often feel like this forum is mostly filled with people who don't give a crap of what they're actually playing as long as they get a good lightshow with awesome music.

That's a very narrow viewpoint, and a wrong one too I'm sure, however...

I disagree, that's pretty much the same feeling I get (and i'd say this very thread is a decent example of it). I'm not trying to sound elitist - people can play these games for whatever reason they choose - but it seems evident to me that there are far, far fewer 'scorers' on here than there are those who play on only a basic level (yet feel their opinion holds merit when it comes to discussing a game's intricacies and its worth). Just look at how active Shmups Chat is (where much of the overall content is shite) compared to the Hi Scores forum. I'm not saying discussion's a bad thing, just that a bit more maturity and knowledge of the subject matter wouldn't go amiss. For example, if I joined a forum about fishing (something I know little about), you can bet I'd do a lot more reading than posting. That doesn't seem to stop people on here.

Shmups are still terrific fun based purely on survival because there's an enormous amount of skill involved in a straightforward clear. It doesn't make you any less of player, for instance, if you can't chain the entirety of a DDP.

I think it absolutely makes you less of a player (unless you can perform something equally as impressive on a different game). The amount of skill, dedication, knowledge and practice required to chain the entirety of DDP far eclipses that of what's required to simply 1CC the game. I've absolutely no shame in admitting that I'm less of a player than Prometheus, for example.

[gs68]

Thread shit-o-meter:
[ ] None [ ] Low [ ] Medium [ ] High [ ] Very High [x] Ahegao

[Illyrian]

I think there are a few points that people may need to consider, if I may say so:

1. Some people have a mindset where they can practice the same level, boss, even pattern for hours and hours and never get bored. Other people prefer to spread their time around many games. If both types of people played these games for 10 years, the first might have (pulling these numbers out of the air) say...6-8 really high level scores on different games, possibly even close to the world record on a few. The second type of person might have 20-30 or more 1cc's at a more basic level. This does not mean that person 1's opinion on a game is automatically more valid than person 2's, it means they spend their time differently. I think there is too much on this forum of "well this person has 2-all'd this game, so he is automatically right!" (for the record that's not a shot at Erppo, or Sapz or anyone else cause I like those guys).

2. It's my experience that people who are really good at something, be it shmups (Erppo, Sapz, Icarus etc, lightgun games (Smraedis) or other types of games are normally pretty damn nice about those games and willing to help. This has been my experience, and it's how I was when I played guitar hero for 10 hours a day. It's the people who actually aren't that good at them, but are okay, who throw the poop around almost in the name of the better players or something.

3. Finally, everyone gets frustrated and rages out, most people are smart enough not to go rant on a forum about it like a plonker (Plankytrousers) but some do.

I have no problem with shitposting to a certain degree, having done my fair share no doubt, but let's try and keep the temper tantrums out!

3.

[Skykid]

I disagree, that's pretty much the same feeling I get (and i'd say this very thread is a decent example of it). I'm not trying to sound elitist - people can play these games for whatever reason they choose - but it seems evident to me that there are far, far fewer 'scorers' on here than there are those who play on only a basic level (yet feel their opinion holds merit when it comes to discussing a game's intricacies and its worth). Just look at how active Shmups Chat is (where much of the overall content is shite) compared to the Hi Scores forum. I'm not saying discussion's a bad thing, just that a bit more maturity and knowledge of the subject matter wouldn't go amiss. For example, if I joined a forum about fishing (something I know little about), you can bet I'd do a lot more reading than posting. That doesn't seem to stop people on here.

Honestly, I'm don't think it really matters. Folks who like the genre come to the forum to chat about the genre. There's no sign on the door that indicates if you aren't of a certain skill level you don't have a right to enter a discussion. I love Akumajo Dracula and have finished them all. I haven't 1cc'd any of them and I couldn't hold a candle to speedrunners, but if someone told me I couldn't go to a forum and discuss the games I'd tell them to do one.

Shmups are still terrific fun based purely on survival because there's an enormous amount of skill involved in a straightforward clear. It doesn't make you any less of player, for instance, if you can't chain the entirety of a DDP.

I think it absolutely makes you less of a player (unless you can perform something equally as impressive on a different game). The amount of skill, dedication, knowledge and practice required to chain the entirety of DDP far eclipses that of what's required to simply 1CC the game. I've absolutely no shame in admitting that I'm less of a player than Prometheus, for example.

I think player was the wrong word there; I didn't mean it to come across in the sense that there's no difference in skill between people. I think I probably should have used "person".

Dr Trouserplank, our self-elected forum piñata aside; Sapz, Prometheus and Icarus are all lovely folks I've had the pleasure of meeting firsthand, and all exercise humility and never throw condescending remarks at a player of lower skill. I don't think they care if 99% of the board can't match their scoring abilities, I think they're probably just happy to have a community to go to.
If someone is into the hobby, that's good enough. How good they want to be at it is up to them, but I don't think anyone has the right to tell folk to stop shitposting because they're not skilled enough at the game to offer up an opinion or share an experience. That's just videogame Nazism.

[Paradigm]

There's no sign on the door that indicates if you aren't of a certain skill level you don't have a right to enter a discussion.

but I don't think anyone has the right to tell folk to stop shitposting because they're not skilled enough at the game to offer up an opinion or share an experience.

This isn't to do with skill. The 'scorers' part of my post was just in response to your quote of Erppo's.

My point is... take moozooh as an example; one of the most intelligent and insightful posters on the board. Skill level is completely irrelevant, it's the fact that he knows what he's talking about that's important, and if he doesn't know what he's talking about then he probably won't post. The problem is that for every moozooh, you now have about 20 kids trolling games they don't (care to) understand and spreading misinformation all over the place.

Anyway, this is just taking things further off topic. Hopefully Elixir will create a new thread when the game nears release.

[ZenErik]

I'm certainly not a master of scoring systems in most shmups I play, but I don't feel as if I spew misinformation either. Hope others feel the same, haha. I've generally got more questions than answers, and that's part of why I come here.

To be honest, what happened earlier in this thread reminds me of a certain image board I can't stand... 4chan.

[Skykid]

There's no sign on the door that indicates if you aren't of a certain skill level you don't have a right to enter a discussion.

but I don't think anyone has the right to tell folk to stop shitposting because they're not skilled enough at the game to offer up an opinion or share an experience.

This isn't to do with skill. The 'scorers' part of my post was just in response to your quote of Erppo's.

My point is... take moozooh as an example; one of the most intelligent and insightful posters on the board. Skill level is completely irrelevant, it's the fact that he knows what he's talking about that's important, and if he doesn't know what he's talking about then he probably won't post. The problem is that for every moozooh, you now have about 20 kids trolling games they don't (care to) understand and spreading misinformation all over the place.

We'll simply have to disagree. You sound as though you're particularly irked or rubbed up the wrong way by people posting anything that is mildly inaccurate or lacks exactitude. So Cave scoring systems are complex, often difficult to decipher; let people be wrong and be corrected - that's what the sharing of information is all about.

If you'd rather anyone who doesn't have a comprehensive grasp of everything to do with a game doesn't post at all, you are elitist, and to be honest, that's exactly what your comment sounds like. moozooh's cool, he doesn't make the forum though, he's just part of a collective. Same with Sapz, and Icarus, and Erppo... and you.

[DrTrouserPlank]

If someone is into the hobby, that's good enough. How good they want to be at it is up to them, but I don't think anyone has the right to tell folk to stop shitposting because they're not skilled enough at the game to offer up an opinion or share an experience. That's just videogame Nazism.

That kinda makes this forum look like a relic left over from the Third Reich.

[stryc9]

Who needs reality TV when you can come to Shmups forum. Seriously.

[Aliquantic]

I'm not sure where's the current trend of "let's all post in the thread saying how bad it is" comes from, since that doesn't feel very productive or creative at this point

So allow me to echo EPS21's query instead in the hope of getting some new information, since I heard the second loke test may have some changes:

Any new videos or news on loc test so far? Thread size seemed to double since I last checked I fear its just people complaining about the game and sai-lolis

[Marc]

I disagree, that's pretty much the same feeling I get (and i'd say this very thread is a decent example of it). I'm not trying to sound elitist - people can play these games for whatever reason they choose - but it seems evident to me that there are far, far fewer 'scorers' on here than there are those who play on only a basic level (yet feel their opinion holds merit when it comes to discussing a game's intricacies and its worth). Just look at how active Shmups Chat is (where much of the overall content is shite) compared to the Hi Scores forum. I'm not saying discussion's a bad thing, just that a bit more maturity and knowledge of the subject matter wouldn't go amiss. For example, if I joined a forum about fishing (something I know little about), you can bet I'd do a lot more reading than posting. That doesn't seem to stop people on here.

Honestly, I'm don't think it really matters. Folks who like the genre come to the forum to chat about the genre. There's no sign on the door that indicates if you aren't of a certain skill level you don't have a right to enter a discussion. I love Akumajo Dracula and have finished them all. I haven't 1cc'd any of them and I couldn't hold a candle to speedrunners, but if someone told me I couldn't go to a forum and discuss the games I'd tell them to do one.

Just to derail a bit further, I agree with Skykid. I can't score for shit - on DDP:R at the minute - but I've been playing shooters since Super Cobra on Intellivision, so i think I'm allowed to participate in the chat here. I also understand why I can't score on DDP:R, but quite honestly, it's never likely to change. But that's for a separate thread. To use your example of fishing, I know a fuckload about football, it's never going to make me any good about it, but it doesn't mean I can't discuss it with like-minded individuals either.

I will also put out an opinion here - the top-tier players on this board actually seem the most gracious and forthcoming for the most part, it's the those just below that get a bit frustrated about falling that little bit short that seem quite pissy and get their kicks from ragging on the lower tier. But that's just my little shitnugget for the day.

[Paradigm]

Just to derail a bit further, I agree with Skykid. I can't score for shit - on DDP:R at the minute - but I've been playing shooters since Super Cobra on Intellivision, so i think I'm allowed to participate in the chat here. I also understand why I can't score on DDP:R, but quite honestly, it's never likely to change. But that's for a separate thread. To use your example of fishing, I know a fuckload about football, it's never going to make me any good about it, but it doesn't mean I can't discuss it with like-minded individuals either.

That's not what I was saying, in fact you're the type of poster I was actually praising.

It has nothing to do with skill nor even what you play these games for in the first place. It can basically be summed up as: less shitposting would be nice.

[Special World]

These forums move pretty slow. I don't think shitposting is really a problem, and I don't think the shitposting on this website is anywhere near as bad as on other sites. Shitposting isn't a big problem until you have people using fake opinions to bait other people, and people posting insults without any sort of context, rationale, or justification.

I think DDP SDOJ looks pretty cool. Seems to be fixing my problems with DFK while keeping the things the game did right. I think the graphics also look a lot nicer, they seem ratcheted up a bit. I'm also glad they're returning to a 3-button system. IMO Dodonpachi excels at being Cave's most basic franchise, and that's where the series should stay. They can go into all sorts of crazy scoring directions and I'll absolutely love it, but Dodonpachi is a sort of Cave comfort food, if you ask me. Some leniency with the scoring is a good thing, and it seems like they're trying to keep things lighter with the soft chain-reduction. I'm sort of secretly glad that Cave has halted their breakneck porting pace, but I know that if they continued porting games I would buy every single one. They're a great company, and I think most people on these forums acknowledge that, even if there's certain games they dislike, or even if they like Raizing / Takumi / Psikyo / etc more. I can complain about certain features like automatic initial entry and half-assed 4:3 support and still be grateful that one of the all-time greats is still pumping out games. As long as Cave keeps up the quality they've demonstrated for ~15 years, there will always be room in my home and my wallet for another Cave port. Maybe one day I'll be rich enough to afford an arcade cabinet or three and a PCB or twenty.

We're all in a pretty crazy hobby together. I don't know why it's crazy, but everyone else seems to think so without trying to sit down and play these games. I'll represent these games to everyone I know, and hope they take the bait. Either way, I'm happy there are people here who are willing to discuss them, positively or negatively, and I know that I couldn't have dreamed to get back into the genre at a better time.

[NTSC-J]

So allow me to echo EPS21's query instead in the hope of getting some new information, since I heard the second loke test may have some changes...

Theres a second loke test?

The initial `complete` versions of these games always turn out to have some glaring problem that gets exposed within the month which leads to a version 1.5, so they end up being like extended loke tests, but do you mean something else?

Personally, I cant wait for the game to come out just to salvage this thread which has been everywhere and nowhere.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It seems to be a recurring thing here, theres folk like me who will chew the crud and those that are only here for serious discussion.

As others have said we are all shmup fans though and generally we arnt as bad as other forums like the escapist . I think we should be mindful of what each thread is for and not have the forum full of only shit posts or serious stuff. The problem arises in threads like this one which is a bit of both. Maybe serious game mechanic posts could start which XXXXX so its easier to see when browsing

Any new videos or news on loc test so far? Thread size seemed to double since I last checked I fear its just people complaining about the game and sai-lolis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuIKjPaZyyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWWka0GZ ... re=related

and in getto tate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB46Efzm ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_oJdU6m ... re=related

[Sandlegs]

Looks pretty cool from the loke test. Seems more stripped down than DFK, and I do like some simplicity.
I would rather have a new Cave game than nothing at all.
Hope I get to play it one way or another.

[GaijinPunch]

I find DFK absolutely maddening. People say it's a really easy 1CC, but imo that's only with Bomb or Strong, which really feel cheap to me. I don't get any sense of satisfaction out of beating the game with those ships, much as I wouldn't get satisfaction out of beating a game on twenty credits. Power seems extremely challenging to me, though it could be partly that the 4-button scheme and mode-switching requires me to constantly second-guess what I'm doing.

That is basically right, but note that bomb is only easy b/c of the auto-bomb. Take it away and the game goes up an order of magnitude in difficulty. Strong style was released quite a while after release. I only played it once, and at a friends place.

Reading post counts and whatnot, I think it's a fair assumption that there are people newish to the genre, and there are people oldish to the genre. I think I'm somewhere in the middle, but I do remember a time when Cave put out games that were "just hard" or "just easy". ESPGaluda was their first easy game... maybe ever, and Mushihime-sama is what opened the doors to putting a lot of choice into the users hands... sometimes even mid-game, like w/ Death Smiles. For DS, the games were even easier than before, and then the auto-bomb came out. For me, that was the straw that broke the camels back. At least now you can disable it.

>> Scoring

Well, scoring isn't supposed to be easy. These are arcade games. To keep people coming back there needs to be a lot of tricks & difficulty in hitting the ceiling. On that note, again, DFK is still not int the difficult bracket. Frustrating at times, yes, but middle of the road only I would say.

[Aliquantic]

Theres a second loke test?

Just a second-hand rumor from a guy I know who saw something who... so yeah, thanks for dispelling that illusion

[Erppo]

>> Scoring

Well, scoring isn't supposed to be easy. These are arcade games. To keep people coming back there needs to be a lot of tricks & difficulty in hitting the ceiling. On that note, again, DFK is still not int the difficult bracket. Frustrating at times, yes, but middle of the road only I would say.

I don't really see how it's any different from other DDPs. The lack of max bonus makes it more forgiving, but it has some really tough stuff to balance out. 2-5 is probably the single hardest stage in any DDP and that's one quarter of the game. I've chained most of the first loops of DDP and DOJBL and those didn't take any more or less effort than the comparable chains of DFK.

[moozooh]

Well, in DFK you can save your chain from dropping by using a hyper, and there are spots where you can die without a major score loss; you don't have either luxury in DOJ, and definitely not in DDP.

[GaijinPunch]

What moozooh said. The older games were way more painful. Chaining DOJ 1-4 is an artform.

[Erppo]

Hyper safe is mostly theoretical in all the hardest parts. The mistakes happen so quickly (and are often of the "run into a bullet" kind) that I've never been able to safe a chain on reaction. What the hypers do enable is softer entry by planning out easy solutions to hard parts, but I'm mainly talking of the full potential chains here.

What moozooh said. The older games were way more painful. Chaining DOJ 1-4 is an artform.

1-4 is a thing, but excluding that and the 1-3 midboss, there's nothing especially hard anymore. You can get a pretty good first loop score only from 1-2, 1-5 and some max bonus and neither of those is a particularly hard chain. In DFK, 1-5 is half of the first loop in both score and length and I find it lot harder than most of the stuff DOJ gives. I'm pretty sure I've done more succesful DOJ 1-5 chains even though I've played the game less.

If you consider perfect first loops though, DOJ does easily win by the stage 3 and 4 midbosses. (E: I still don't know if the 1-3 is possible in WL. If not then that's one big thing less to worry)

[moozooh]

E: I still don't know if the 1-3 is possible in WL.

Should be. Chain timers are the same between versions, and I vaguely remember Prome saying he had managed that link back when he played WL. Might require a different setup compared to the BL method, though; here's how the TAS does it in the second loop. I see a potential for a simplified version without the speedkill: time the hyper gauge so that it's almost full by the midboss, use the hyper in the same place as in the video but kill the platform. Stall the hyper on the mines and the arms (the gauge should be filled by now) and wait until the new hyper item arrives, kill the midboss and link it with the popcorn using the new hyper.

[GaijinPunch]

We talked about this in the HS thread I think. I don't think it is.

I didn't play DOJ that much, but chaining 1-5 takes a bit of practice, but it is nothing like 1-4, true. However, the practice is tough... you don't have the option of ditching your hyper to not kill your chain. Brutal.

[TonK]

Worse is the constant suggestion that BL requires absolutely no skill whatsoever because of its bullet cancelling system. Playing for score with the meter at max rank is a full on and fun experience. It doesn't have the depth or complexity of 1.5, but it's still exciting, fulfilling, and tough to clear.

I do believe that's simply a counter reaction to the mass flood of people who know nothing about DFK but still feel like complaining about certain aspects of the game and implying BL fixes these, when in reality BL is just what these people think 1.5 is. At least I'm starting to get pretty tired of answering to the same things over and over again.

Even though you're totally qualified to do so (beautiful run btw) you shouldn't feel required to answer the same thing over and over again. Chatting with Tonk a few pages back, it's easy enough to accept that for whatever reason some fundamental basics just don't click with a lot of people. With 1.5 I get the impression abstaining from firing the hyper during the second half of each stage is counter-intuitive to a lot of people, in a "Why give me a bullet cancelling hyper if I'm penalised for using it?" sort of way.

No big deal really, you get it, they don't.

What?

[Estebang]

Some kind of special promotion on the Japanese Cave Shop related to SDOJ. Can anyone translate it?

Also, are we really still in the dark as to whether this is PGM2 or SH3?

[Skykid]

What?

whassup?

[NTSC-J]

Some kind of special promotion on the Japanese Cave Shop related to SDOJ. Can anyone translate it?

If you buy some junk during their online sale from the 17th to the 20th you get some special booklet that has information about the SDOJ characters and interviews with 3 of the development staff, including Ikeda.