Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

[Vyxx]

obligatory: lrn2play

edit: ha, i think cave games are mediocre and even I liked DFK.

And there's the kicker.

Besides, I'm not trying to insult all the Dieforcatsoup fans, I just found the survival play utterly boring.

I realize Cave games usually do shine with playing for score, but at least for me, I always play for survival before I play for score.

[Christoph]

Does every new Cave kit cost the same upon release? What are they - 2k?

[MX7]

obligatory: lrn2play

You weren't playing for score and that is where DFK shines. Getting the second extend is exhilarating.
Saying you can "skip" harder patterns with a hyper is like saying Mars Matrix gives you infinite bombs. OH DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THIS. BOMB.
Then you score goes down the drain

If all you want to do is play a hard game and dodge, play a Tatsujin Ou.

edit: ha, i think cave games are mediocre and even I liked DFK.

But even when not playing for score you'll hit the second extend on a standard survival run :-/ I do agree that DFK actively discourages you from using the hyper score wise, even more so than Black Label. My big problem with DFK is that it's a cake walk until ST5, regardless of whether you push score, and then ST5 is stupidly looooong and boring. Oh, and the music is shit too.

Black Label solves these problems by having negotiable rank and an awesome soundtrack.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

But even when not playing for score you'll hit the second extend on a standard survival run :-/

Then how come so many people can't get it?

I've never gotten the second extend in 1.5. And I've gotten up to 2-5 Omote on my best run. The requirement is way too high.

Oh, and I can play 1.5 with the Black Label soundtrack. So that's not necessarily a reason to play Black Label.

[Erppo]

I do agree that DFK actively discourages you from using the hyper score wise, even more so than Black Label.

BL doesn't "discourage" hypering in the slightest, instead it wants you to hyper nearly every single moment of the game and sit in your almost perfect safety racking in those free points. It really is the game that most "i like posting on shmups forum and not playing games" -people think DFK is. Only limiting thing to this is the slower rank bar increase of Bomb and couple of places where you can get more starting hits without.

The requirement is way too high.

Yeah I also hate it when I have to do something in games.

[Skykid]

The requirement is way too high.

Yeah I also hate it when I have to do something in games.

Condescending ever, Jesus.

[Erppo]

Well if you can already reach 2-5, you shouldn't have trouble getting the extends if you put some effort into it.

[Paradigm]

I've never gotten the second extend in 1.5. And I've gotten up to 2-5 Omote on my best run. The requirement is way too high.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought score-based extends were supposed to be awarded for, y'know, scoring.

If you practice a bit of chaining you should have them both by the end of stage 2, I don't see how that's too high.

[Naut]

Everytime somebody says DFKBL is less hypery than DFK1.5... "Oh look, somebody else who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about!"

Also, I've never obtained the second score extend in DFK 1.5, and I completely understand that it's due to me ignoring score. It's actually something I agree with, unlike the other DDP games' extends just being autogets with almost no effort.

[Skykid]

Everytime somebody says DFKBL is less hypery than DFK1.5... "Oh look, somebody else who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about!"

Worse is the constant suggestion that BL requires absolutely no skill whatsoever because of its bullet cancelling system. Playing for score with the meter at max rank is a full on and fun experience. It doesn't have the depth or complexity of 1.5, but it's still exciting, fulfilling, and tough to clear.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Both DFK and BL are rock hard. Black label probably being the hardest port they've released on the 360.

[Erppo]

Worse is the constant suggestion that BL requires absolutely no skill whatsoever because of its bullet cancelling system. Playing for score with the meter at max rank is a full on and fun experience. It doesn't have the depth or complexity of 1.5, but it's still exciting, fulfilling, and tough to clear.

I do believe that's simply a counter reaction to the mass flood of people who know nothing about DFK but still feel like complaining about certain aspects of the game and implying BL fixes these, when in reality BL is just what these people think 1.5 is. At least I'm starting to get pretty tired of answering to the same things over and over again.

I don't know about others, but it should be pretty obvious that I like both of the games, seeing how I've submitted scores I spent a decent amount of time to get in both.

[Skykid]

Worse is the constant suggestion that BL requires absolutely no skill whatsoever because of its bullet cancelling system. Playing for score with the meter at max rank is a full on and fun experience. It doesn't have the depth or complexity of 1.5, but it's still exciting, fulfilling, and tough to clear.

I do believe that's simply a counter reaction to the mass flood of people who know nothing about DFK but still feel like complaining about certain aspects of the game and implying BL fixes these, when in reality BL is just what these people think 1.5 is. At least I'm starting to get pretty tired of answering to the same things over and over again.

Even though you're totally qualified to do so (beautiful run btw) you shouldn't feel required to answer the same thing over and over again. Chatting with Tonk a few pages back, it's easy enough to accept that for whatever reason some fundamental basics just don't click with a lot of people. With 1.5 I get the impression abstaining from firing the hyper during the second half of each stage is counter-intuitive to a lot of people, in a "Why give me a bullet cancelling hyper if I'm penalised for using it?" sort of way.

No big deal really, you get it, they don't.

[NzzpNzzp]

Both DFK and BL are rock hard. Black label probably being the hardest port they've released on the 360.

Good to have an expert opinion in this thread for once.

[kid aphex]

Playing CAVE games the right way requires a lot of focus and understanding... not everyone is willing to dedicate that amount of themselves (time, effort, etc) to a game; so, it's perfectly understandable for people to come at these games for totally different reasons

There's way more to enjoy about a CAVE game than the complicated scoring systems ---
Their games are (almost) always these amazing examples of audio-visual-interactivity balance; it's a feeling that few developer's games, regardless of genre, can ever achieve

Personally, 90% of the posts on this forum re: scoring systems and mechanics read, to me, like they're written by people with aspergers
It makes me appreciate the amount of depth CAVE put into their games... just not the personality type that depth seems to attract :\

With that said, we should all just relax a little bit and keep in mind that, relative to the ever-expanding games industry, we all participate in one of the tiniest game communities out there. We all chose to come here ... did we do so just to argue with one another?!

slightly more On-Topic

Originally I hated DDPDFK, but it's definitely been growing on me. Soundtrack wise, it's one of the weakest Cave efforts, and that initially turned me off more than anything else. But, the rank meter/bullet cancelling system allows me to balance my own pursuit of score/survival, so I'm enjoying it as sort of a introductory to Cave-game-score-chasing

Are there any newer, better videos of Saidaioujou yet?

[Erppo]

Personally, 90% of the posts on this forum re: scoring systems and mechanics read, to me, like they're written by people with aspergers
It makes me appreciate the amount of depth CAVE put into their games... just not the personality type that depth seems to attract :\

It's funny that you see it that way, since I often feel like this forum is mostly filled with people who don't give a crap of what they're actually playing as long as they get a good lightshow with awesome music.

I guess this just tells that the place is actually more balanced than it might seem.

[Eaglet]

Personally, 90% of the posts on this forum re: scoring systems and mechanics read, to me, like they're written by people with aspergers

This is probably the weakest excuse somebody could ever make for sucking too much or being too much of an underachiever to actually learn the games they are supposed to play.
"I can't do it or understand it so there must be something wrong with those who can."

Besides, you don't need to put in a lot of time to become any good.
I spend a maximum of 5 hours a week on them shmurps and i've pretty soon got a letter score in Garegga, 1CC'd DOJ (which i got last week) and Futari BL God.
I started playing shmups 5 months ago and i do not consider myself good. To become good i would have to put in a lot more time.

All you need to get good at shmups is the correct mindset, knowledge on how to practice and a minimum amount of reflexes.
Edit: Oh yeah, i guess a minimum amount of intelligence is required too.

[moozooh]

kid aphex, I think you're mistaking prejudiced or otherwise uninformed criticism of a scoring system for the conscious decision to disregard scoring. Most Cave games I play I don't play for score, but I know their scoring systems fairly well and I try keeping myself free from misconceptions, because misconceptions are the main reason for abundant arguing. Not criticizing things you don't understand is not a very hard thing to do.

[Skykid]

Personally, 90% of the posts on this forum re: scoring systems and mechanics read, to me, like they're written by people with aspergers
It makes me appreciate the amount of depth CAVE put into their games... just not the personality type that depth seems to attract :\

It's funny that you see it that way, since I often feel like this forum is mostly filled with people who don't give a crap of what they're actually playing as long as they get a good lightshow with awesome music.

That's a very narrow viewpoint, and a wrong one too I'm sure, however...

There's way more to enjoy about a CAVE game than the complicated scoring systems ---
Their games are (almost) always these amazing examples of audio-visual-interactivity balance; it's a feeling that few developer's games, regardless of genre, can ever achieve

As long as you're enjoying yourself that's fine. Shmups are still terrific fun based purely on survival because there's an enormous amount of skill involved in a straightforward clear. It doesn't make you any less of player, for instance, if you can't chain the entirety of a DDP. That said, I'm firmly of the belief that if you don't play for score, you're losing out on an enormous chunk of the experience, since score and survival are usually balanced beautifully (I can only think of one Cave exception to this rule) and it's a real buzz to get into both at the same time.

If DFK is too unfathomable, that's a fair excuse not to persevere, but I reckon you'll always have the most fun with a shmup when you're scoring.

/2 bits.

[Annoyboy]

Both DFK and BL are rock hard. Black label probably being the hardest port they've released on the 360.

I've 1CCd DFK plenty of times, and yet you can consistently get further than me in Futari 1.5. Fancy that. I do think DFKBL is much harder than 1.5 though, even in spite of the "constant hypers". I'd like to try DOJ but I'm scared to buy it, half the forum says it's easy and half says it's hard, it's hard to know who to trust on these matters. :/

[Hagane]

It's not as difficult as some people say, but it's definitely not easy either.

Try it on MAME then buy it if you like it?

[Sapz]

It's not an easy clear by any means; I don't think it's on the same level as Ketsui or Futari Maniac for a 1-all, for example, but it's significantly tougher than a DFK 1-all and probably, say, an ESPGaluda 1cc. The 'it's easy' stuff is likely just backlash at the guys who say it's insanely hard, which it isn't either - it's likely that rumour spread because of how tough DOJWL was to clear in the arcades where no-one had access to it on MAME or ports, due to its incredibly sadistic second loop rules which made it very hard to practice (aside from of course having a harsh second loop in the first place).

[kid aphex]

This is probably the weakest excuse somebody could ever make for sucking too much or being too much of an underachiever to actually learn the games they are supposed to play.
"I can't do it or understand it so there must be something wrong with those who can."

You misunderstand my post. I was just illustrating my perspective ... I didn't make any judgement calls, unless you consider Asperger's insulting. Really, all it represents, is a vastly different perspective.

As far as sucking too much ... challenge my Geometry Wars 2 scores :]

[Eaglet]

unless you consider Asperger's insulting.

Hell, who doesn't?
In my high school class we had an aspie... i don't think anybody'd appreciate being associated with him in any way.

As far as sucking too much ... challenge my Geometry Wars 2 scores :]

If only i played Geometry Wars...

[kid aphex]

unless you consider Asperger's insulting.

Hell, who doesn't?

Like I said, I don't.

[Zengeku3]

Hell, who doesn't?

I don't. I know a bunch of such people and they are perfectly fine people.

[Cagar]

-

[GaijinPunch]

Both DFK and BL are rock hard. Black label probably being the hardest port they've released on the 360.

That's why people in the intermediate bracket were 1-looping DFK in the arcades about a week after it was released.

[Gus]

I have no idea why anybody would feel insulted by the asperger's thing.

[Special World]

I have no idea why anybody would feel insulted by the asperger's thing.

Say somebody comes up to you and calls you gay. You have no ill will towards gay people. Does that mean it wasn't an insult?

Say you have aspergers. Wouldn't it annoy you that people all of a sudden are using aspergers as a synonym for nerd, loser, "weeaboo," etc?

Say you don't have aspergers. Somebody sees you playing Dodonpachi. They remark "Wow, you must be a real aspie to be playing this game." Does it not annoy you that they think only a physically/mentally handicapped person could enjoy the game you're playing? Or alternately, as they intended it, that only a total loser could enjoy that game?

I personally think calling somebody a "sperg" or "aspie" is a pretty shitty insult. I don't think the poster ITT used it particularly offensively, but I still think it's a term generally used in poor taste online, just like gay, nigger, and retard are terms used in poor taste.

I'm not upset over it, but you'd have to be pretty dense to not be able to see why somebody could take offense.