Let's Talk About Our Feelings: Scoring

[finisherr]

I've been playing STGs since this past summer and I can honestly say I'm pretty psyched on these games. I've never played anything so addictive, fun, and challenging. When I first started, I really didn't care about scoring...at all. After 1-ALLing a couple of titles, just scraping by really, I decided to check out what all this fuss what about concerning scoring.

I discovered that I JUST DON'T GET IT. Well, I haven't given any game enough time to really learn how they work I guess. However, Futari is the only game I've given any considerable time that comes intuitively (or more so) in the point department. When you do something correctly (or how you planned), you can easily see if you're doing it right because of the number of big gems and the simple cash-in concept (of course, when and where you cash in takes some thought!).

However, in every other game, I have no idea how to really go about getting a good score. In the DDP series, I get the concept, but it seems really aggravating to have just about zero freedom (or spontaneity) when it comes to gameplay where scoring is concerned (gotta keep that chain). In Ketsui, I'll think I understand scoring one moment, but the next I realize that there are two multipliers and I can't tell if what I'm doing is good or bad for my score. Sometimes I pop a small guy and start a chain with my laser to get those 5 chips until that bottom number at the bottom goes in the red. But then I think, doesn't laser use drop the second multiplier, so is chaining even worth it? Is it better to just point blank everything?!?! BAH!!!

So yeah, what are your thoughts on scoring?

[Ed Oscuro]

Have you tried other types of games?

In some older games, scoring essentially reflects your ability to survive through loops (Toaplan makes this challenging yet interesting), up to a point.

In others, there are some subtle tricks to figuring out scoring. Sometimes it breaks the game (i.e. the bomb / die / repeat method Twiddle demonstrated for Gun & Frontier) but other times it is meant to be discovered. For whatever reason I can't think of a great example of this right now, except to say that Sky Adventure makes use of this (most scoring comes from cancelling bullets, I found) and Zing Zing Zip and many other games (Dangun Feveron, of course, is maybe the best example from Cave of this, at least that I've played) allow much better scores to be racked up if you collect all the X before they disappear. There are variations on this theme if you don't care to chase items or bullet graze or position yourself over a medal fountain just right. Of course, Raiden Fighters games do this pretty well - not so much chasing (so you can focus also on the actual shooting aspect) but a lot of finding (and memorization of locations for best scoring, of course).

[NTSC-J]

Well, scoring is what good shooters do.

finisherr, it seems like you`re focused on Cave scoring systems, in which case, yea, they are usually multi-layered and difficult to master, but they also give these games nearly limitless replay value. DDP stands as one of the quintessential and most popular games in the genre, and yet there is still room to improve on the current highest score.

For me, I`m just not good enough to get high scores in Cave games and I prefer the simpler shooters that focus on survival. But the genre has all sorts of scoring systems, everyone is bound to find one that suits their tastes. For every Night Raid theres a Twin Cobra.

[Ed Oscuro]

For every Night Raid theres a Twin Cobra.

There can only be one!

Major Stryker, that is. I suppose Ashura Blade is very much alike Twin Cobra (doesn't have the magical feeling though, and the sound / graphics upgrades feel like downgrades).

[tommyb]

Some people look at scoring in Cave games like you do, as a big mess that is hard to understand and frustrating.

As a mildly-decent danmaku shmupper, I look at Cave games as "well, I'm gonna try and survive. Whatever little scoring mechanics I can pull off throughout my run, I will, but I'm not going to base my play off of strict scoring paths".

After a very frustrating few hours of Futari 1.5 play, a friend of mine reminded me that these are games. Games are meant to be fun. Play them however YOU find them fun. Don't make them so frustrating and so hard that they now seem like a chore, rather than a fun game to be played.

[finisherr]

Some people look at scoring in Cave games like you do, as a big mess that is hard to understand and frustrating.

As a mildly-decent danmaku shmupper, I look at Cave games as "well, I'm gonna try and survive. Whatever little scoring mechanics I can pull off throughout my run, I will, but I'm not going to base my play off of strict scoring paths".

After a very frustrating few hours of Futari 1.5 play, a friend of mine reminded me that these are games. Games are meant to be fun. Play them however YOU find them fun. Don't make them so frustrating and so hard that they now seem like a chore, rather than a fun game to be played.

Oh, of course they should be fun. I just think that they will be even more fun once I understand the mechanics. Futari & Futari Black Label really clicked for me. Consequently, the game became waaaay more fun. From a survival perspective, it definitely helps to have extra lives from those extends when fighting Larsa. Otherwise, it would more difficult for me to 1-CC. I just kind of want the other games to click in the same way. Ha.

[tommyb]

That's funny taht you saw that because Futari BL was the first game that "clicked" for me, as well. DDP DOJ came shortly after. Once you really get one down, the rest start getting easier in my opinion.

[finisherr]

I guess I can say that Resurrection is more forgiving in the chaining department. I actually got to a point of full chaining stages 1 and 2 in power mode. Kinda got distracted by messing with Ketsui though.

[Special World]

Scoring separates the good STGs from the great ones, imo.

For all the hate it gets, Bullet Soul is actually a good shooter. But it completely drops the ball in the scoring department, and therefore isn't a GREAT shooter.

Futari Black Label is a beautiful thing, though. What a masterful experience. And learning how to score in Deathsmiles turned it from one of the worst Cave games to one of the best, imo.

I think the game that really taught me the importance of solid scoring systems was Mars Matrix. The shop is a wonderful incentive to maximize your score. It's just a shame that the prices are so astronomical that I have to rely on score attack mode, which feeds you scoring cubes.

[moh]

when i first approach a new shooter, i like to try my best to clear it before even worrying about score at all. now as you mentioned, the only benefit to focusing on score from the beginning are the extra lives, but hey, the bottom line is: you're playing to have a good time, right? if you dont like scoring, then dont worry about it! not every element of the game is geared for everyone =]

[finisherr]

I like what that french player is doing with those 1-sissy videos. If only some experienced players would make videos showing and explaining basic and advanced scoring techniques for different games! That would be really sweet.

[Naut]

I like what that french player is doing with those 1-sissy videos. If only some experienced players would make videos showing and explaining basic and advanced scoring techniques for different games! That would be really sweet.

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCJ7Yw9sChY

http://www.youtube.com/user/STGReplays

[finisherr]

more like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlMaOCUG9tU

[Naut]

Sorry, I thought you said advanced scoring techniques somewhere there. I guess I'm blind.

[Never_Scurred]

I don't care to much to do any score runs, not because I dislike playing for score (I actually appreciate the level of depth a good score mechanic can provide. It gives the game much more staying power beyond getting a 1CC), but because I don't really play any one game long enough to give a shit about it. But its nice to know its there when I do decide to commit to it.

[Despatche]

apologies in advance, and i mean it now more than ever

However, in every other game, I have no idea how to really go about getting a good score. In the DDP series, I get the concept, but it seems really aggravating to have just about zero freedom (or spontaneity) when it comes to gameplay where scoring is concerned (gotta keep that chain). In Ketsui, I'll think I understand scoring one moment, but the next I realize that there are two multipliers and I can't tell if what I'm doing is good or bad for my score. Sometimes I pop a small guy and start a chain with my laser to get those 5 chips until that bottom number at the bottom goes in the red. But then I think, doesn't laser use drop the second multiplier, so is chaining even worth it? Is it better to just point blank everything?!

Since this is that thread, I would like to point out yet again that there is little or no freedom when it comes to scoring. This is an illusion perpetrated by those who do not know what the game expects of them. What is true is that some of these scoring systems are unintuitive, which they are by design (due to complexity); since this can't exactly be helped, we just need better information and a better way of getting people to read it.

Games are meant to be fun.

I would also like to point out that this is a bit misleading. A large part of pretty much everything is "work", so the thing is whether that work is enjoyable and what its purpose is. Fighting games are a pretty good example of this.

now as you mentioned, the only benefit to focusing on score from the beginning are the extra lives

This is another thing that bugs me, because you don't usually need extends (I don't think this needs explaining; Yagawa games are different story, of course). No, the reason why I like to focus on score from the beginning is because I think it's more fun to learn some things about the game and then see how well I can do as I progress; see above.

[Gus]

This is another thing that bugs me, because you don't usually need extends (I don't think this needs explaining; Yagawa games are different story, of course). No, the reason why I like to focus on score from the beginning is because I think it's more fun to learn some things about the game and then see how well I can do as I progress; see above.

Yeah, I hate this idea that when you're beginning a game you're supposed focus on the 1cc and only to learn to score enough to get the extends. For a lot of games you really won't be any better off after getting the 1cc than if were just starting out as you'll likely have to learn entirely different stage routes than what you were using and deal with things like rank.

[Kollision]

I think scoring comes naturally as you play a game more and more.
Example: You don't need to see the whole game to really sink your teeth into scoring techniques. Replaying a stage 1 over and over will eventually lead to a perfect personal path for more points. It's amazing how much you can improve in a game such as Mars Matrix or Rayforce after you start understanding things.

If it doesn't click at all the player should seek help, and the Strategy section of these very same forums are great for that.

[FetusZero]

I rarely play for the score, if ever. However, I always try to learn the scoring system because the gameplay mechanic that differentiates the game from the others is often built around that specific scoring system. If it weren't for that, a lot of shmups would pretty much be and feel the same in general. Of course, they will have some little features added to be different, but what really sets them apart will often be the scoring system in my opinion.

My feelings on scoring: I don't pay attention to it in terms of actual "scoring", but I pay attention to it for the overall gameplay experience.

[moh]

My feelings on scoring: I don't pay attention to it in terms of actual "scoring", but I pay attention to it for the overall gameplay experience.

that's a good way of putting it. Thats exactly how i see it!

[Eaglet]

What got me into STG's was purely the fact that i actually felt adrenaline from playing a game.
But as soon as the initial wow-factor had subsided i started looking more deeply into the games and found a heaven for one as competitive as i.

[Never_Scurred]

What got me into STG's was purely the fact that i actually felt adrenaline from playing a game.
But as soon as the initial wow-factor had subsided i started looking more deeply into the games and found a heaven for one as competitive as i.

I've been playing shmups almost exclusively for the past 8 years and I still haven't made it out of the "adrenaline rush" stage. But I like knowing there will be more game waiting for me when I do decide to move onto scoring. That's what I love about the shmup genre the most.

[Gus]

What got me into STG's was purely the fact that i actually felt adrenaline from playing a game.
But as soon as the initial wow-factor had subsided i started looking more deeply into the games and found a heaven for one as competitive as i.

This is exactly how it went for me.

[mrsmiley381]

I liked the scoring in Compile's games. Kill shit, get points, rack up lives like a boss. I managed to 1CC Space Megaforce and Gun-Nac on my first try of each because of how dead simple and to the point the games functioned. I kill stuff that gets in my way and I occasionally die but because I killed lots of things before I get another crack at it. In Gun-Nac I had something like seventeen lives in stock, then beat the final boss on my last. That was pretty awesome.

Then there's Battle Garegga, which is insane on a whole new level. You kill certain enemies in a certain order to maximize kill points before they can run off, but you also have to medal properly, trigger crazy bonus flamingoes, and blow your fucking brains out at the right time and place to prevent things from blowing your fucking brains out when you don't want them to do so. I suck at the game but that doesn't mean it gives me any less of a boner. The scoring tricks add a lot to the game and really give you a partial founding in what you should do. You should make sure you get all the bomb chips at the beginning, you should blow parts off the first boss using certain bullets, you should trigger flamingoes, and so on and so forth. When you know what to do and where to do it you develop a rhythmic habit of play. That's pretty cool too, if incredibly intimidating.

Video games are finite state machines and shmups are no exception. Theoretically there should be a way to play any and all games perfectly and attain a maximum score. With complex scoring mechanics it might mean there are more possible options available at all times so the score can in the end be a very good way of telling who has mastered the game more.

[dunpeal2064]

Heh, I always like a Compile shooter the first time I play it... then I 1cc it. The next time I want to play it, I think "Do I want to put 30 minutes into this run, knowing that I 1cc'd on the first try?"

The answer is usually no. I really love their music and style though. Its funny, I usually beat the game with one life left as wel, even with all the lives I'll go into the last boss with.

[SunJammer]

right now I play shmups for the clear, which means scoring for extends. BUT I have much respect for good scoring system.
My ideal scoring system is one that reflects skill instead of esoteric tricks or exploits, especially ones where a player's actions can drive the rank in one direction or another and it is reflected in their final score

[MathU]

I pretty much always feel compelled to play for score and it's probably just because I'm a perfectionist in general. I rarely even do it to compete with others; I just like to set my own challenges and see how far I can personally take games that I enjoy. This makes it hard for me to play certain games with a lot of decision making, like strategy games, but 2D shooters are just great for me. In fact, I can't actually remember a time when I was into 2D shooters where I WASN'T trying to simultaneously survive and kill everything else on the screen.

A big reason why I'm not much of a CAVE fan is I just do not enjoy most of their scoring systems at all. Maybe you'll enjoy playing for score in some games not made by CAVE?

[CptRansom]

My story about scoring:

I like playing for score, but I'm pretty terrible at it.

The end.

[Marurun]

If it's not a fun and captivating scoring system to you then of course you aren't going to get it. For instance, I like the DDP games - I really do like them, just for mindless shooting fun, but the scoring mechanics where you chain enemies to build up the scores does not appeal to me at all. I feel restrained to the point where you can't even experiment with how to score in that type of scoring system. Visually, that scoring system also aggravates me as well because you aren't collecting anything that indicates you're scoring(Leaving DDPDFK out since that does involve stars everywhere).

As for my feelings about scoring, I LOVE PLAYING FOR SCORE. How much do I love it? I play the arrange modes for Cave games more than I do the regular games if it involves racking up massive points. If I can 1CC a shmup without playing for score, that's great. When I realize that playing for score can make it more challenging and/or fun(like Progear) then I find it even better. For some of us it also isn't just about scoring for fun, especially if it's to get a top score or be on a leaderboard, but instead it has more to be with being competetive.

[AttObl]

My story about scoring:

I like playing for score, but I'm pretty terrible at it.

The end.

That sums up my feelings for scoring.