XBOX Next-Gen -> Anti-used-game technology?

[louisg]

Companies are losing a SHIT-TON of money to rental stores and places like EB. A rental store buys ONE copy at retail for example....and profiteers off of it over and over and over again. This has been acceptable for years, but the companies had no way to combat it. Digital distribution and online passes give them the ability to fight that loss. Essentially rental stores are like leeches, sucking away the profits from the company that made the item, while producing nothing of their own

Right, by getting the game co's product out there on the shelves, *very* aggressively marketing it to customers, and giving consumers a way to preview expensive games before they buy them, retail stores are "leeching" off this extremely healthy multi-billion dollar industry. Well, I hope the game industry enjoys the download-exclusive market where a $7 game is considered overpriced, because that's what they're going to get.

Seriously, every company acts like it's their right to profit from every single use of their software. If you buy a car, you've paid the company who created it, and you get to resell it at a later date. Toyota does not get a cut when I decide to sell my car. Counting every time a game changes hands as a lost sale is nothing short of delusional, but that's the behavior we've grown to expect from the movie/music/game industries. Pretty soon they'll want a cut every time you use it.

and hard-core gamers, how does that benefit the company in ANY way? It doesn't. It's an outmoded business model. The exact same thing we saw happen with the automobile is now happening with video games. Cars were built like tanks for YEARS. You could get 20+ years out of a car properly maintained, and probably more. Then people in the car industry realized how long cars were lasting...and how people weren't buying the damn things fast enough to keep the companies afloat. They started introducing cheaper cars with plastic parts, making them more complex and harder to work on.

Are you kidding me? I drove my '92 Corolla well past 180,000 miles, and it still ran flawlessly-- I only got rid of it because I didn't want to spend the money to fix the interior and wanted airbags. It never had a single serious issue. Go try that with some 60s junker.

[cools]

Damn, I've already played and 100% completed every game already in existence, I'm now forced to buy these games I can't resell.

[Icarus]

Pretty soon they'll want a cut every time you use it.

Already happening with in-app purchasing, I'm afraid. There's a particular puzzle game on iOS called Triple Town that has a stupid 200-move limitation, that is either topped up by small purchases with the in-game currency (which isn't sustainable unless you're a god at the game), or a $3.99 (was $6.99) unlimited move IAP. The game itself is actually really good as well, which makes this "feature" grind my gears even more. How long until we see pay-as-you-play in something like this? I was half-expecting it to be already implemented when I heard about the move limit.
Downloadable games, and DLC doesn't bother me if the game/DLC is worth it, but this kind of play restriction boils my piss.

[cools]

Pay as you play based on skill is now a bad thing?

[Icarus]

Pay as you play based on skill is now a bad thing?

Would you be saying the same thing if Cave charged you $3.99 for every 200 enemies you popped in Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu?
Bumping your move count up with earned in-game currency isn't too big a deal if the move limit isn't restrictive (which, unfortunately, it is in this kind of match-three puzzler, as moves are gone in the blink of an eye), or the in-game currency is easy to earn. I'd start worrying if they started charging actual currency to bump up your move count however.
I'm also of the mindset that IAP should not be a requirement to play, and be as unobtrusive as possible. A freemium game like Tiny Tower does it best, where you can quite easily earn in-game currency, and do everything within the game's rules without requiring IAP, but the ability to assist low-skill players with available IAP is there. Something like Deathsmiles and the ridiculous drop rate on Hard difficulty, is an example of how not to balance difficulty and IAP.

EDIT: Ars Technica have discussed ways that this potential anti-used-game tech could be implemented.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012 ... -games.ars

[Jeneki]

Pay as you play? Here you go!

Namco Bandai brought some of their 80s arcade games to iPhone. You can get Xevious, Phozon, Motos, and Tower of Druaga now. And just like actual arcade machines, you need to put in credits to play them.

Each day, you get one free play. After that, ten credits cost 80 yen ($1). Sure, each play is less than an actual arcade game (those are at least 100 yen), but 10 cents per Tower of Druaga credit seems a bit steep.

[Friendly]

Pretty soon they'll want a cut every time you use it.

Yes, imagine a system where you have to insert a coin into a slot each time you want to play a video game...

[gameoverDude]

What they could do instead of blocking used games: Have a special limited campaign/arcade mode only release on disc for $30 and allow players to buy access to multiplayer or other extras (i.e. Spec Ops or Zombies modes in Call of Duty) via DLC. Not everyone gives a rat's ass about the extras.
The collector's edition could contain a special disc preloaded with all extra content. If you resell your $30 version, the secondhand buyer would need to rebuy the extra content as DLC.

If I finish the campaign in a FPS like Call of Duty or Crysis, I tend to move on and not bother with the MP mode or extras.

As for the 360's dashboard, I prefer the PS3's XMB design.

I don't like the idea of having to purchase virtual tokens for these Namco iPhone games. Charge me one flat fee for unlimited use or I'll just do without.

[louisg]

Pretty soon they'll want a cut every time you use it.

Yes, imagine a system where you have to insert a coin into a slot each time you want to play a video game...

OK I'll tell Microsoft what: You give me the XBox 360 and display for free, then I'll pay 25c a play-- exactly the pricing setup it used to be

[xbl0x180]

It's related to piracy because both services support the industry to a similar degree. (not at all)

It has nothing to do with piracy, nor is it analogous to piracy. Piracy is the outright profit from theft. I did not steal anything by buying someone else's used stuff (e.g., used clothes, shoes, accessories, books, games, music, videos). Also, the original owner of the stuff probably paid for the items legally. Now, if a corporation wants me to pay high prices to virtually rent something (i.e., they want to keep control of the stuff I own), then I won't frequent their crap business at all and I'd never recommend their service/work to anyone. It's that simple

[Specineff]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the failure that was Digital Video Express (DIVX), which was more or less the same thing: Buy a disc, tie it to your player/account, cannot use it on another machine unless it's unlocked there. Result: Lead balloon.

I can understand the locking of download-only content like the Virtual Console, but if this is a physical medium we are talking about, there is some sense of ownership for the consumer. Alienate your customers, see the pirates and hackers undo your efforts. To quote Gandalf, it shall not pass.

[Ed Oscuro]

Remember when these rumors were going around last time? Last time it was Sony being rumored to do this...anyway, I say we've been right at this point on the PC for a very long time now. No doubt that's not the only reason why PC games have been doing much better than forecast (at least by Twiddle) but the prospect of fewer used game sales probably hasn't kept many developers away from the PC platforms.

It's related to piracy because both services support the industry to a similar degree. (not at all)

It has nothing to do with piracy, nor is it analogous to piracy. Piracy is the outright profit from theft. I did not steal anything by buying someone else's used stuff (e.g., used clothes, shoes, accessories, books, games, music, videos). Also, the original owner of the stuff probably paid for the items legally. Now, if a corporation wants me to pay high prices to virtually rent something (i.e., they want to keep control of the stuff I own), then I won't frequent their crap business at all and I'd never recommend their service/work to anyone. It's that simple

Yes, the relevant term in the law is the right of first sale.

If I own, for example, a copyrighted painting by somebody famous - the ONLY copy - it is mine. It does not let me reproduce that work (which some people don't understand, i.e. the guy selling reproductions of the famous RCA Indian Head test pattern) but it does let me essentially hold it ransom for sale. But once you sell it, your interests in that item (as a piece of stuff) have been extinguished.

[evil_ash_xero]

Hmm...so there's no second hand market? That would certainly make things difficult.

Either I'll totally skip the next gen...or wait until the systems are hacked(most likely).

This will certainly make people REALLY think about purchase.

[Ed Oscuro]

Pay as you play? Here you go!

Namco Bandai brought some of their 80s arcade games to iPhone. You can get Xevious, Phozon, Motos, and Tower of Druaga now. And just like actual arcade machines, you need to put in credits to play them.

Each day, you get one free play. After that, ten credits cost 80 yen ($1). Sure, each play is less than an actual arcade game (those are at least 100 yen), but 10 cents per Tower of Druaga credit seems a bit steep.

Shit, just the other day somebody was proposing that as a joke. Namco got postmodern fast!

[Ed Oscuro]

Pretty soon they'll want a cut every time you use it.

Yes, imagine a system where you have to insert a coin into a slot each time you want to play a video game...

That system depended on the capital required for each setup being huge, substantially less available, and more expensive (for the time) than ubiquitous handheld phones. So - good job with the funny, but there's no equivalence here.

[xbl0x180]

Pretty soon they'll want a cut every time you use it.

Yes, imagine a system where you have to insert a coin into a slot each time you want to play a video game...

That system depended on the capital required for each setup being huge, substantially less available, and more expensive (for the time) than ubiquitous handheld phones. So - good job with the funny, but there's no equivalence here.

Well, I was thinking, "As long as they bring back the arcades, then, hellyeah I'm gonna play in quarter-crunchers in the same way I pay for overpriced beer at a bar - it's all about the atmosphere."

Otherwise, they can go f*** themselves with their overpriced iphony games

[MR_Soren]

They think their products are somehow special, and unlike movies, music, books and everything else on this planet should not be resold because they don't get a cut. Not because it's their moral right, but because they can.

I think the real difference is that those other industries do not have a chain as large and ruthless as GameStop that deliberately purchases less product than demand would dictate specifically to force people into buying higher-margin used games.

This is especially bad for smaller devs whose games don't get into Wal-Marts and Targets and rely upon GameStop as their only physical vendor.

However, as much as I sympathize with devs and the shit deal they get from GS combined with the Media and Retailers only promoting the so-called "AAA" titles, I agree with the general sentiment in this thread. I won't buy hardware that takes away my ability to exchange games with others.



Also, I'm really not interested in a next-gen system. I'd be happy if the current gen lasted another 5 years.

[emphatic]

How about they just ban commercial re-selling of games instead (GameStop for example)? IIRC, the employees at those stores are instructed to always sell a used copy even though they have new ones for sale in the store so no money goes towards the game companies. I will NEVER buy a used copy this way, but on the other hand, they never have the games I want anyway, so fuck 'em. I haven't cleared all my 360 games yet and chances are I never will (being a parent is murder on your game time) so I'm already set. And there's always PCB's I can buy that I haven't played yet. Next-gen is so last-gen.

[cools]

Pay as you play based on skill is now a bad thing?

Would you be saying the same thing if Cave charged you $3.99 for every 200 enemies you popped in Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu?

I wouldn't play beyond the first credit if it was priced at this level. The wording however was that if you were "god like" at the game you could play freely.

A pay to play game with online leaderboards, downloadable for free and priced at say... 0.05p a credit? I'm in.

And for anyone bitching about buying the hardware and then playing this way - think about how it used to work:
Developer makes arcade title, producing a few thousand bits of dedicated hardware at crazy costs, sells to arcade at big prices to recover costs and make their profit, then makes nothing extra.

With a (sane) pay-to-play model - developer makes title with no hardware development or production costs, has no distribution costs other than maybe licensing from the platform holder, and their profits come from players actually playing the games.

Pay to play has the potential to actually return us to skill based games, played at a fair price, and the onus is on the developer to make truly great titles that we will want to play otherwise they make no money.

[Friendly]

How about they just ban commercial re-selling of games instead

I don't think you have thought this through, comrade.

[louisg]

And for anyone bitching about buying the hardware and then playing this way - think about how it used to work:
Developer makes arcade title, producing a few thousand bits of dedicated hardware at crazy costs, sells to arcade at big prices to recover costs and make their profit, then makes nothing extra.

With a (sane) pay-to-play model - developer makes title with no hardware development or production costs, has no distribution costs other than maybe licensing from the platform holder, and their profits come from players actually playing the games.

Pay to play has the potential to actually return us to skill based games, played at a fair price, and the onus is on the developer to make truly great titles that we will want to play otherwise they make no money.

One key difference though is arcade hardware was consistently and with few exceptions a generation, maybe two, ahead of home hardware. This was one of the services arcades provided-- by adopting a pay-to-play model, you could offer better technology than if you're pricing it to place the tech directly into homes. Right now, developers expect you to buy an unexceptional system, buy a game, then pay to play on top of that.

I also think you'd just see a return to credit munching. We're in the middle of a small community talented and dedicated enough to 1cc games which were designed so that most players have to put in a few bucks to see the ending. If you read reviews from the 90s or early 00s, I think you'll find that most people would consider these games impossible to get anywhere in without a dozen continues. Thus, there's not a wide recognition that games that feature a continue screen are in fact skill-based games, and they will be designed that way.

[Shatterhand]

Companies are losing a SHIT-TON of money to rental stores and places like EB.

Not nearly as much as they claim to, because for most people the alternative to renting a game or buying it used is not buying it new, but simply not owning it at all. Contrary to what the media industry seems to believe, you can't force anyone to buy you product. You simply can't.

In fact, this is the central error in reasoning that makes so-called anti-piracy measures based on it look so depressingly idiotic.

This.

Most people who pirate games wouldn't buy more than 98% of the stuff they copy / download. They pirate a lot of games because it's easy to do (Well, not that easy nowadays), and many times they don't even play most of the game properly.

I really don't believe they are "losing millions", because those people wouldnt buy their products if they couldn't pirate.

I believe its the same thing with the 2nd-handed market. I've bought a lot of used stuff in my life that I would NEVER buy new, full-priced, because they didn't justify the price to me.


Anyway, that's something I've been thinking for a while. I do have a huge backlog of games I have never properly played or finished... sometimes I even regret buying my 360 since I feel the number of games I actually do like on it is incredibly smaller than the amount of games I like on the PS2 (or even other older systems). I've been seriously thinking about stopping spending money on any new games/systems and just enjoy what have already been released and I never enjoyed properly. If they really do something like this, I won't have to think about it anymore, I am pretty sure that's what I'll do.

[DJ Incompetent]

I don't mind the kill used sales move.

1. Wait 8 months from release, any new disc game prices at $20-$30.
2. The console mod will be out eventually and this restriction will likely provoke hackers further to make it happen. Anybody who doesn't give a shit about devs/publishers will still be able to steal whatever at the expense of not being able to use Live.
3. The rare timeless game that is actually worth keeping will either be rehashed somewhere without the DRM or emulated 20 years after. Truly great games never go away.
4. I'm fairly sure every disc 360 game I own except Rock Band, MvC3, and SF4 has been unprofitable or broke even. 'Wouldn't mind offbeat games getting the possibility of changing that. I buy so few videogames now.
5. Yes the "I want it now" day-1 crowd loses. I don't really care. I wouldn't mind reading less noise about how new disc game _____ is terrible, buggy, and overpriced when a good indie game came out that same day nobody will ever talk about.

I guess I'm not the one to talk. I'll probably be the only one waiting 3+ years to confirm the new Microsoft hardware isn't gonna have a 90% failure rate again.

[Friendly]

If Microsoft really implements this then all the competition needs to do is NOT implement it, and the Xbox brand will go down like a lead balloon. In so far I'm not convinced this is anything but a greedy, near-sighted publisher's wet dream.

I don't mind the kill used sales move.

By saying this you show that you don't look at the big picture and only think short-term.
People who have no appreciation for their rights tend to lose them.

[DJ Incompetent]

I don't mind the kill used sales move.

By saying this you show that you don't look at the big picture and only think short-term.
People who have no appreciation for their rights tend to lose them.

How is thinking 20 years ahead short term?

Most of my purchases are digital. I love the PSPgo. I have lost all these rights.
'Funny thing is I can't think of a single game out of my 360, PSP, or PC downloads I would care that much to keep forever. Disc games I don't play anymore are given away to friends instead of sold.

I'm knee-deep in the big picture. Is says gaming is disposable. Steam says hai.

[ShmupSamurai]

Knee-deep in the "Big Picture" my foot...

Now adays, the only games I get are used and mostly niche titles-because forking over $60 a pop for some dumbass's 160th generic Halo/Gow/CoD clone only reveals you as a blind sheep, just following the masses as they play right into the hands of greedy publishers- causing stagnation of creativity and inovation in the industry.

I, as a beginning game developer with a heart raised on old-school videogames, am sick of it.

But who am I to argue with a man who doesn't care?

Fine then, by all rights just sit there and let them continue to screw you time and time again.

[Friendly]

But who am I to argue with a man who doesn't care?

Fine then, by all rights just sit there and let them continue to screw you time and time again.

That's why I didn't even bother to reply; there is no point in arguing with someone who is so totally and willfully ignorant. Or a troll.

[neorichieb1971]

Sounds like anti buy-game technology to me

Mind you, it had that built in when it said Xbox on it..

[Cuilan]

This rumor is almost certainly bullshit.

But in the very unlikely event that it isn't, pick one of the following :

1) All major 3rd party publishers go Xbox exclusive.

OR

2) It's actually an industry-wide decision that all three console manufacturers are supporting.

It's almost like they're begging to have the current videogame market crash again.

The industry could seriously use one right about now (for reasons you alluded to). The market might have actually crashed this generation had the Wii and DS not reached the levels of popularity that they did.

[Friendly]

1) All major 3rd party publishers go Xbox exclusive.

You don't seem to know how the Japanese gaming market works.