Slowdown in Cave games: Intentional?

[mdsfx]

I hadn't played any Cave games in Mame until recently and it had me wondering if:

1. Slowdown is just a consequence of their game design paired with limited hardware (meaning all of their games were ideally meant to be played at full speed all of the time)
-OR-
2. Cave created their games using slowdown as a design tool (adding enough action on-screen to "induce" slowdown where they wanted it)


It's possible this may have been beaten to death in the forums, but I have yet to come across a topic about it. I'm just curious if anyone knows the answer.

[AntiFritz]

I hadn't played any Cave games in Mame until recently and it had me wondering if:

1. Slowdown is just a consequence of their game design paired with limited hardware (meaning all of their games were ideally meant to be played at full speed all of the time)
-OR-
2. Cave created their games knowing that slowdown would occur and used it as a design tool (adding enough action on-screen to "induce" slowdown where they wanted it)


It's possible this may have been beaten to death in the forums, but I have yet to notice a topic about. Just curious if anyone knows the answer.

Most of its intentional.

[Moniker]

Yeah, it's intentional. CAVE was very aware of the limits of the hardware and intentionally overloaded it. There are some cases where I'm not convinced.. e.g. focus-shot slowdown in Futari, but I would be amazed if Cave weren't at least aware of it. I just think it detracts from the gameplay.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I asked this question many moons ago here on the Shmups forum, and GP said it was intentional. Otherwise, you'd have some very skilled players not being able to go through such danmaku portions, and more likely for player error/frustration senarios to occur.

On the SH-3 powered DDP-DFK ver. 1.5 PCB, there are portions of the game where slowdown does occur but then speeds up back to it's usual 60fps framerate quite suddenly with no visible cue that it'll happen. Could Cave have fixed/addressed that issue? I'm sure they could've but they didn't.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[AntiFritz]

Some of the slowdowns pretty bullshit though, especially in futari. The game shouldnt randomly speed up when your almost through a pattern.

[mesh control]

iirc the old cave hardware (pre-PGM) slowed down unintentionally, due to hardware limitations. Everything after that was programmed.

[Udderdude]

And then they actually killed the SH3 with DFK Black Label :3

[mdsfx]

...Everything after that was programmed.

so are you saying that in some cases the slowdown isn't hardware related at all, but simply coded into the game?

[IseeThings]

iirc the old cave hardware (pre-PGM) slowed down unintentionally, due to hardware limitations. Everything after that was programmed.

It's hardware limitations on the SH3 board too, hence the endless 'blitter speed' posts in the emulation thread

There are a few spots where there clearly are *programmed* slowdowns for dramatic effect, big explosions and the like, but the majority are due to hardware limits.

That of course doesn't make them unintentional, Cave knew the blitter limits and purposefully push them in place.

There is also unintentional / unwanted slowdown caused by overloading the CPU, people have reported Slowdowns at level start on Pink Sweets / MM Pork on real hw at higher ranks even on the PCB, these are because they've overloaded the CPU decompressing level data for later in the game and underestimated the amount of action likely to be happening at that time.

[Skykid]

...Everything after that was programmed.

so are you saying that in some cases the slowdown isn't hardware related at all, but simply coded into the game?

Yes, they admitted to it in an interview once iirc.

[CStarFlare]

...Everything after that was programmed.

so are you saying that in some cases the slowdown isn't hardware related at all, but simply coded into the game?

I'm quite sure Cave has confirmed this. It's definitely true for ports (see the Deathsmiles NA debacle). The choppy slowdown in some games is probably a side effect of Cave deciding to let the hardware do its thing rather than specifically program slowdown. (I assume some patterns speed up near the end because the screen begins to clear and the hardware is free to run at max speed, even though the player isn't out of immediate danger)

[Vyxx]

Ibara stage 3 without slowdown would be a challenge, that's for damn sure.

One of the many reasons the PS2 port is craptastical.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

[mdsfx]

img

Great find, thanks!

EDIT: So if the slowdown is often programmed, why would we not see it in Mame?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The bits of slowdown that are programmed into the games are present but the bits that are hardware limitations (some of which could have also been "planned") aren't always there because the emulation isn't complete/100%. It probably will never be 100% correct and Cave doesn't even get it there on their ports.

[drunkninja24]

Well, the hardware emulation isn't 100% perfect, so it can definitely result in differences when compared to the original PCBs, especially on newer hardware.