Ideal High Score table system.

[DrInfy]

I was looking at the high score boards and looking at the Mushihimesama Futari one made me completely uninterested in competing in that game. Having 20 different game modes, versions and difficulties makes it nearly impossible to determine who's the best in that game and also nobody (not many at least) is going to care about the novice scores anyways. Comparing that to Dodonpachi scores, you have to beat only (even if its damn hard) Prometheus's score to be crowned the king in that game. To me that seems to be much more interesting competitively and I'm actually trying my best to get in that list. So I started to wonder about what the actual hardcore players think about the high score tables and how they should function.

Let's say that someone was to create the perfect shoot 'em up specifically designed for this community. What kind of high score system would you guys prefer it to have?

Remember that the 'one game mode, one difficulty' option would mean that the early game would have to be pretty easy and the end game so damn that not everyone would be able to complete the game. Where as with multiple difficulty options players would get into the interesting action from the first moments.

[Gus]

I was looking at the high score boards and looking at the Mushihimesama Futari one made me completely uninterested in competing in that game. Having 20 different game modes, versions and difficulties makes it nearly impossible to determine who's the best in that game and also nobody (not many at least) is going to care about the novice scores anyways.

It's not about who's the undisputed best. It's about having fun playing the game and comparing scores. If you bothered actually trying to understand the game you'd see that pretty much every single mode has completely different scoring and bullet patterns so it basically necessitates having different leaderboards unless you're saying everyone should just play God. Having individual character boards for novice is a little overkill but I can't see how that could possibly discourage you from competing. If you don't like then just don't play those modes.

[DrInfy]

It's not about who's the undisputed best. It's about having fun playing the game and comparing scores. If you bothered actually trying to understand the game you'd see that pretty much every single mode has completely different scoring and bullet patterns so it basically necessitates having different leaderboards unless you're saying everyone should just play God.

I've actually never played Mushihimesama Futari, I was browsing the high score lists for a fun game to compete in. And to me it seems more fun to compete in being the undisputed best in game X than the best in X game in Y mode on Z difficulty. Of course that means designing the game differently if there is only one difficulty and game mode as obviously people are going to lose motivation if the game is just too damn hard even at the beginning. I'm obviously not saying it's wrong to have a different opinion, I'm just curious about the views the regular players have about this.

So far it seems like I'm pretty much on my own with my opinion. :p

[NTSC-J]

The Mushi series is pretty unusual in that regard with all of the modes and versions. DFK is kind of a mess too, but most shooters are pretty standard with one mode and comparable ship types.

Ketsui has a robust high score table here, give that one a go if you want some competition.

[ratikal]

Mushihimesama Futari is kind of intimidating because most of the scores there are ALL clears. That's what steered me away. A cap is fine but damn, to know that in order to even get on the board you have to clear the game is a little scary.

But then again, to get any good score, you probably have to clear the game anyways.

[AntiFritz]

If you really wanted to you could have separate high score tables for dangun feveron, separating each shiptype, shottype and speed. Ingame high score table wise its like impossible to get onto anyway.

[Aliquantic]

Note that in the case of Futari, it's relatively obvious who the undisputed king is now You just get your pick of game mode to try and beat him! It's not too hard to see a clear leader on most tables, and even DDP has Sikraiken with very, very good scores that aren't posted anymore (And someone else on the French boards who claimed scores on Prometheus' level)

(The DOJBL boards come to mind for heavy competition with no clear leader... we should start taking bets there)

[Iori Branford]

For each game type, a table of scores from all difficulty levels. Exceptions would be any games where you somehow can score as much on Easy as on Hard.

[DrInfy]

For each game type, a table of scores from all difficulty levels. Exceptions would be any games where you somehow can score as much on Easy as on Hard.

Ah yes, I knew I was forgetting something! That was actually the reason I put the "something else" there. The kind what Jamestown for example uses. I think I'll change to last option to that as no one else has put that something else as of now. It should then pretty much cover every solution developers have come up with.

[MR_Soren]

Each mode should have a separate table, because each mode is like a different game with different rules, scoring techniques, bullet patterns, etc.

(I'm generalizing, not speaking specifically about Mushi.)

Just pick a game/mode you enjoy and stick with it until you are good.

[Special World]

You really let an abundance of scoreboards steer you away from the best STG of all time? That's ludicrous. Also, you could say the same thing for Futari as you could for Dodonpachi. In Dodonpachi, there's a couple of high scorers- the leaders in A, B, and C types. Futari has a ton of different modes (which is a GOOD thing), and therefore there are a ton of different high score tables. But much like you're saying "Well, there's only ONE highest score in Dodonpachi!" you could say the exact same thing about Futari. There's only ONE highest score in Futari. I guess that whichever mode it's in is the only one you should be playing, and whichever character achieves high scores more routinely is the only one you should care about.

That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it, though.

I'd choose to have a table for each character in each mode. There's no use comparing Original scores to Maniac scores to Ultra/God scores. It's just dumb.

One thing I would like is for there to be clear indication of which digit you're at. This is complicated by Japanese notation having 4 digits instead of three (no idea how to phrase this), but I'd like to be able to look at my score at a glance and say "ah, I have 37 billion" instead of "I have 37. Before I only had 34. Success."

[DrInfy]

You really let an abundance of scoreboards steer you away from the best STG of all time? That's ludicrous. Also, you could say the same thing for Futari as you could for Dodonpachi. In Dodonpachi, there's a couple of high scorers- the leaders in A, B, and C types. Futari has a ton of different modes (which is a GOOD thing), and therefore there are a ton of different high score tables. But much like you're saying "Well, there's only ONE highest score in Dodonpachi!" you could say the exact same thing about Futari. There's only ONE highest score in Futari. I guess that whichever mode it's in is the only one you should be playing, and whichever character achieves high scores more routinely is the only one you should care about.

That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it, though.

I guess I should clarify that it's not like I don't want to play Futari because of the abundance of scoreboards. It's just that playing tens or hundreds of hours on improving score in a game with zillion scoreboards doesn't seem as appealing to me as doing it in a game with only one scoreboard. In a casual way of playing, having more modes and difficulties is obviously a cool thing to have, but really I feel that when playing competitively having more scoreboards is actually less.

[Deca]

I feel like you're disappointed because if you take first on a certain scoreboard that is only one of many for a certain game, not everyone will have to look at it every time they post a score.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that if you can't get over the basic concept of how scoreboards work and why we set them up the way we do, you're probably not going to be shaking up the top rankers any time soon...If you're getting into this just to be the best you're just going to end up frustrated and unhappy. Work on your skills for a while, if you do end up being one of the best Futari players anyone that would care will know.

Just grab Futari, pick a mode you like, and stick with it until you can clear it. Use the scoreboards to track your progress, try different things, explore all the different modes, and then when you've cleared the game a few times in various modes and have one picked out that you REALLY want to get serious about focus in on that. Futari is an amazing game, and hands down the best bang for your buck in the world of shooters. It's an absolute essential for any fan of the genre, and probably the best first game to pick up for a vast majority of players.

[Iori Branford]

One thing I would like is for there to be clear indication of which digit you're at. This is complicated by Japanese notation having 4 digits instead of three (no idea how to phrase this), but I'd like to be able to look at my score at a glance and say "ah, I have 37 billion" instead of "I have 37. Before I only had 34. Success."

In that case just crib their words "man" (10k = 1,0000) and "oku" (100mil = 1,0000,0000).

For even larger values such as in Takumi games, refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_n ... ge_numbers

[DrInfy]

It seems like I shouldn't have used Mushihimesama Futari as an example for my point as it seems I've turned pretty much everyone and their moms against me with that. As for an another example I recently bought Gundemonium Recollection. Gundemonium Recollection has online leaderboards for pretty much everything, even for the tiniest minibosses in demonic challenge (you fight a single enemy or boss phase in demonic challenger for around 10-50s) and to me that seems completely going overboard. As a result of that overabundance of scoreboards I started to wonder about the ideal scoreboard structure for an ideal shoot 'em up. After I decided my own vision on the ideal scoreboard structure I decided to ask other people's opinions. I wanted to see if my opinion has any similarities with players here and to see if there were any insights that I did not realize myself.

I would really prefer the discussion going in the direction of speculating the ideal scoreboard structure instead of whether I should play Mushihimesama Futari or not (which is a great game no doubt).

[Despatche]

I'm going to be rude, there's no other way to go about this. God, I feel like I'm in a nightmare sometimes.

You're complaining about your own perception; you want the rules changed to something that would only be different because it would be functionally worse. Just ignore all the modes you don't care about, don't blame the score keepers for all the things the developers let you do, and don't blame the developers for giving you all these fun choices. The boards should keep track of whatever's in the game because that's what's in the game; it wouldn't be fair to leave something out simply because someone's lack of attention span gives them the power to shut off their basic comprehension skills and be able to successfully blame it on someone or something else.

[DrInfy]

I'm going to be rude, there's no other way to go about this. God, I feel like I'm in a nightmare sometimes.

You're complaining about your own perception; you want the rules changed to something that would only be different because it would be functionally worse. Just ignore all the modes you don't care about, don't blame the score keepers for all the things the developers let you do, and don't blame the developers for giving you all these fun choices. The boards should keep track of whatever's in the game because that's what's in the game; it wouldn't be fair to leave something out simply because someone's lack of attention span gives them the power to shut off their basic comprehension skills and be able to successfully blame it on someone or something else.

Woah, now there is someone who completely misunderstood everything I tried to say. I'm definitely not trying to complain about anything and I'm most certainly not trying to change the rules or the scoreboards on these forums and I'm not even trying to change the way someone is developing games. All I'm asking is if someone were to specifically create a NEW shoot 'em up just for you, how would you have its scoreboard system made. I've stated my opinion in the opening post and if you want to change it, try to explain why something else is better, instead of "being rude".

[Udderdude]

Instead of feeding the flamewar I decided to write down what I feel are the pros and cons of each. :P

One game mode, one difficulty setting
Pros: Best for absolutely dedicated score players who will play the game a zillion times to compete with others
Cons: Worst for lesser skilled players (Single difficulty usually means that difficulty is hard) or people who want any variety in modes

One game mode and different difficulty settings
Pros: Good balance for lesser and greater skilled players
Cons: No game modes means people who want variety won't stay long

Multiple game modes, but only one difficulty setting for each of them
Pros: This is likely the best, and the model CAVE uses.
Cons: None, really

Multiple game modes with different difficulty settings
Pros: Most variety and provides something for everyone
Cons: Dedicated score players are the most likely to be frustrated by the overload of potential mode/difficulty combinations

For each game type, a table of scores from all difficulty levels. (harder difficulties score more)
Pros: You don't have a zillion score tables
Cons: Lesser difficulty modes can't be played competitively, as they just get wiped off the table by scores from higher difficulty modes.

[Elixir]

Nobody wants to create a shmup to conform to a linear leaderboard. What would be the point?

How are multiple leaderboards with obtainable positions intimidating to you, but a single leaderboard with positions that aren't, perfectly acceptable?

[DrInfy]

Thank you Udderdude for the insightful post. It seems like you're pretty spot on with most of what you're saying, however with "Multiple game modes, but only one difficulty setting for each of them", there should be some downsides. I'll have to do some studying (playing) to figure out what that would be.

edit: I guess the multiple game modes without different difficulties is kinda middle ground. It's not really the best for anyone but it isn't a bad option for anyone either.

Nobody wants to create a shmup to conform to a linear leaderboard. What would be the point?

How are multiple leaderboards with obtainable positions intimidating to you, but a single leaderboard with positions that aren't, perfectly acceptable?

That's exactly why the single leaderboard is interesting. Challenge is only fun when it's worth challenging.

[Elixir]

So the other leaderboards aren't worth challenging because they don't interest you?

All of these leaderboards for Futari have individual leaderboards within the game.

[DrInfy]

So the other leaderboards aren't worth challenging because they don't interest you?

All of these leaderboards for Futari have individual leaderboards within the game.

As I said, I was looking for a game to compete in, not just play, but to seriously compete and I'm hoping to put some hundred hours on a single game to really improve my ability to play these games. For putting that many hours in a single game means I'll need to have some serious motivation to play that game. And I just can't find that kind of motivation for a game with zillion game modes and difficulty settings. As to whether I have that kind of motivation to any shoot 'em up remains to be seen, but I'm pretty sure the chances are higher with game that has only single leaderboard.

[MathU]

Castle of Shikigami III does it best: a separate top ten list for every difficulty and character. This makes it so people can still enjoy playing sub-optimal characters even when playing for score. People aren't constrained to playing the game a very particular way when they want to be competitive.

[Elixir]

So the other leaderboards aren't worth challenging because they don't interest you?

All of these leaderboards for Futari have individual leaderboards within the game.

As I said, I was looking for a game to compete in, not just play, but to seriously compete and I'm hoping to put some hundred hours on a single game to really improve my ability to play these games. For putting that many hours in a single game means I'll need to have some serious motivation to play that game. And I just can't find that kind of motivation for a game with zillion game modes and difficulty settings. As to whether I have that kind of motivation to any shoot 'em up remains to be seen, but I'm pretty sure the chances are higher with game that has only single leaderboard.

Sorry bro, this genre isn't like that. You pick a game, you find a mode you like, and you work at it. If this forum has multiple leaderboards covering different modes, that's because the game has those modes and has players playing those modes. It's selfish to think a game such as Futari shouldn't have leaderboards for other modes--and what if one of those extra modes is your favourite? Would you lose motivation because the leaderboard doesn't exist?

It cuts both ways. I see what you're saying, but in reality, things aren't going to change just because it doesn't suit you.

[DrInfy]

Sorry bro, this genre isn't like that. You pick a game, you find a mode you like, and you work at it. If this forum has multiple leaderboards covering different modes, that's because the game has those modes and has players playing those modes. It's selfish to think a game such as Futari shouldn't have leaderboards for other modes--and what if one of those extra modes is your favourite? Would you lose motivation because the leaderboard doesn't exist?

It cuts both ways. I see what you're saying, but in reality, things aren't going to change just because it doesn't suit you.

I did say this once before, but let's repeat it once more: I'm not trying to change the ways these forums work. Of course if a game has multiple modes, the forums should also have leaderboards for those modes (unless some of them is terribly broken somehow).

Also I don't need leaderboards to play shoot 'em ups or to generally enjoy them. For attempting something crazy (like playing a game /mode for hundreds of hours) it's pretty important to have a leaderboard that motivates as much as possible.

I must say that I'm surprised with how the poll is progressing. I honestly thought that the first two options would get more votes. I guess Cave is on to something, as it seems people are liking this multiple modes, one difficulty thing?

[Despatche]

Woah, now there is someone who completely misunderstood everything I tried to say. I'm definitely not trying to complain about anything and I'm most certainly not trying to change the rules or the scoreboards on these forums and I'm not even trying to change the way someone is developing games. All I'm asking is if someone were to specifically create a NEW shoot 'em up just for you, how would you have its scoreboard system made. I've stated my opinion in the opening post and if you want to change it, try to explain why something else is better, instead of "being rude".

I did not misunderstand your very clear demands and questions. It's clear that the purpose of this thread was to complain and to see if others agree with that complaining. You claim that this particular opinion means you find it hard to get particularly excited about competition; it really doesn't make any sense, but I've tried to explain why that happens and why it's not such a good idea as best I can.

The thing about "multiple modes, one difficulty" is that all of those "modes" are meant to be different "difficulties". Mushi, for example: Original is "normal", Maniac is "hard", Ultra is "hardest"; that was a large part of the design, and most people really like that. Particularly, going up not only increases difficulty but also complexity, generally. A similar system are the "Normal/Advanced" modes that Armed Police Batrider and Battle Bakraid have.

I have no idea why people dislike separating by ship/character/whatever. Even in a game like Dodonpachi, the experience is not the same between ships and powers. People compare it to fighting games, which is dumb and works against them anyway.

edit: tbch i think novice modes are dumb for the same reason batrider/bakraid training modes are dumb, take that however you will
edit2: nzzpnzzp's got it

[NTSC-J]

Check out our STG Hall of Records.

No Novice modes, no separate ship type listings (pros and cons to that one), just a streamlined listing of who is at the top for each game here and in the world. Beat one of those scores and your name will be written in lights.

[NzzpNzzp]

Having multiple game leaderboards makes it too hard to determine who's best at the genre. We should just have one big table with combined scores from every game ever so we can tell who's really the best.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I have no idea why people dislike separating by ship/character/whatever. Even in a game like Dodonpachi, the experience is not the same between ships and powers. People compare it to fighting games, which is dumb and works against them anyway.

The way I see it, few shottypes ever offer any real scoring advantages no matter how easy they may be to use since the game is still obviously beatable with the others. Besides, if one ends up dominating a scoreboard anyway, I don't see a problem with adding 'the underdog' to the ranks rather than just giving it it's own empty space.

[Despatche]

i'm confused here. beating the game with any ship is easy enough, yea- oh wait donpachi but whatever. scoring's usually different though. you're just not going to have the same potential with the different ships and powers in donpachi or dodonpachi.

as for underdogs: if you put up empty space, people want to fill it; another reason why i like doing it