The future of Cave

[MR_Soren]

What I'd like to know is what kind of profit they've made from iOS ports?!

Going by Game Center leaderboards and assuming about $3 revenue per game:

Bug Princess: 10,547 = $31,641
Deathsmiles: 23,161 = $69,483
DoDonPachi Resurrection: 42,134 = $126,402
Espgaluda2: 26,216 = $78,648

These numbers are taken from the maximum participants in a leaderboard for a game. The actual sales numbers should be higher due to people who never signed up for Game Center and people who haven't posted to a game's most popular leaderboard. I'm also using slightly low revenue estimates. (Example: Bug Princess is $5. I think devs keep 70%, meaning Cave gets $3.50 per sale.)

I'm not sure what Cave spends to develop these games, but my understanding was that they wrote a library that converts their arcade hardware's graphics calls to equivalent iOS graphics calls, allowing them to use most of the arcade code. They probably invested a good deal of effort writing that library to make the first game, but porting additional games is comparatively easy.

I think the Bug Princess port was completed in less than 6 weeks of programmer time. Possibly part of a mad scramble to increase shoot-em-up revenue before year's end and hopefully save some projects that were on the chopping block.

[Friendly]

Freakin' Christ, you're like a broken record man.

anti-360 rambling

The PS3 has no shmups because no-one wants to develop for it regardless of the Japanese market situation. Telling us about it daily isn't going to change that. If you want to play current-gen shmups, buy a 360 and play some or quit whining and be happy with the hand-me-downs for your bloody multimedia blu-ray player.

This is pretty funny coming from you, looking at your posts concerning PS3. You are just as bad a fanboy as Last_Dancer. Only in reverse. Yes, we get it, almost all shmups are on 360 this gen.
"no-one wants to develop for [PS3] regardless of the Japanese market situation"
Right, no-one wants to develop for it. I guess that's why PS3 had way more exclusive games than 360 in 2011. Incomplete list:

Ar tonelico Qoga: Knell of Ar Ciel
Disgaea 4
Dead Space Extraction HD
House of the Dead Overkill Extended Cut
Hyperdimension Neptunia
The ICO and Shadow of the Colossus Collection
inFAMOUS 2
Killzone 3
LittleBigPlanet 2
MLB 11 The Show
MotorStorm Apocalypse
No More Heroes: Heroes' Paradise
Pixeljunk Shooter 2
PlayStation Move Heroes
Ratchet and Clank: All 4 One
Resistance 3
Rune Factory Oceans (also on Wii)
SOCOM 4
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception
White Knight Chronicles 2
Yakuza 4

360 on the other hand had Gears of War and Halo, and for us niche fans a few nice shmups (mostly arcade ports which can now be played on MAME), but even that seems to have dried up now.

Here's a 2012 list of PS3 exclusive games that are known so far:

Atelier Meruru
Dragon's Crown
DUST 514
House of the Dead 3 + 4
Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2
Journey
The Last Guardian ?
The Last of Us
Malicious
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time
Starhawk
Tales of Graces f
Tales of Xillia
Twisted Metal ?
The Witch and the Hundred Calvalrymen
Yakuza: Dead Souls

So, if with a lineup like this PS3 is a "bloody multimedia blu-ray player" that "no-one wants to develop for", then what does that make 360? A noisy DVD player prone to breaking that not even Microsoft wants to develop for?

Fanboys. Imagine how boring gaming forums would be without all those thousands of Last_Dancers and Skykids.

[dunpeal2064]

He said there are no SHMUPS because no one wants to develop for them. I don't think he was referring to all genres.

Plus, Skykid posts on high score threads and is open to friendly (no pun intended) discussion. Far from anything Last Dancer has contributed. Click his profile and view all posts. Its pathetic.

Oh, and nice job showing your love for the ps3 by listing every exclusive you can, followed by "all the 360 haz is gears and halo" yeah, I'm sure those are the only 2. Hell, you even put sports games in your ps3 list. Seems pretty fanboy to try to prove your point by omitting any kind of accurate list for the 360.

Also, niche shmups? Not really necessary on these forums I'd think, and again, not naming titles and talking the releases down because you can emulate them?

Maybe you were being ironic by being fanboyish yourself?

[Friendly]

I don't think he was referring to all genres.

He said "no-one wants to develop for it", not no-one wants to develop SHMUPS for it. Aka "PS3 haz no gamez".
He also called PS3 a "bloody multimedia blu-ray player". This is what we commonly refer to as "fanboy-talk".

Hell, you even put sports games in your ps3 list.

I just copy-pasted those; I'm also sure I missed several games. Fact remains that PS3 had way more exclusives than 360 last year, especially "big" names which 360 very much lacked. That's why I didn't bother to look up an accurate list. Please feel free to do so and to correct me if 360 had any other major exclusive titles besides Halo and Gears of War in 2011.

your love for the ps3

Guess what, I own all Xbox 360 shmups. A fanboy is a person who pretends that part of the gaming world does not exist. I play games, not consoles.

Also, niche shmups?

I didn't say that, I said we are fans of a niche genre. Doesn't get any more niche than that.


Anyway, the only difference in regards to their fanboyism is that Last_Dancer is more obvious/stupid than Skykid.

[dunpeal2064]

Well, the way I read it was, "the ps3 has no shmups because no one wants to develop for them" I assumed his comment was only aimed at shmup devs, but I could be wrong.

You are right, the ps3 has way more exclusives, and imo, better games. It was just the method you used to show this that screamed fanboyism to me, as most people that want to bash on the 360 will only mention gears and halo. While the 360 may be lacking in exclusives, it isnt quite THAT bad.

I must have read things wrong, I thought you said, "and a few niche shmups that could be played through MAME" still a true statement, but it just seemed unnecessary.

Of course, arguing that the 360 is the best console this gen purely from its shmup releases would be silly.

I agree with what you are saying, but it seemed like you were excluding info to make your point stronger, which wasn't necessary, since you were already making a strong point.

A silly arguement anyways, since (iirc) the wii is selling better than both.

[Friendly]

(iirc) the wii is selling better than both.

No longer, actually. PS3/360 oustold Wii in 2011. Wii sales are declining quickly.

A silly arguement anyways

Totally. You seem to be a level-headed person.

I just found Skykid's hypocrisy/underhandedness annoying, hence my above post.

[BrianC]

Ar tonelico Qoga: Knell of Ar Ciel
Disgaea 4
Dead Space Extraction HD
House of the Dead Overkill Extended Cut
Hyperdimension Neptunia
The ICO and Shadow of the Colossus Collection
inFAMOUS 2
Killzone 3
LittleBigPlanet 2
MLB 11 The Show
MotorStorm Apocalypse
No More Heroes: Heroes' Paradise
Pixeljunk Shooter 2
PlayStation Move Heroes
Ratchet and Clank: All 4 One
Resistance 3
Rune Factory Oceans (also on Wii)
SOCOM 4
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception
White Knight Chronicles 2
Yakuza 4

While PS3 does seem to have more exclusives, I don't know how the bolded games count since those were originally on Wii or PS2. No More Heroes is also on 360 in Japan. Since that PS3 list has everything included, I think it's worth mentioning that 360 got more exclusives than just Halo (and the one this year probably don't count since it's a close remake of the first Halo) and Gears of War 3. It got some Kinect stuff like Gunstringer, some XBLA games like Ms. 'Splosion Man, and Forza 4. I think a lot of the better games this year were on both systems, though.

[Friendly]

Strike No More Heroes then; I had no idea it was released for 360 in Japan; I assumed it was an exclusive due to PS Move controls. As for the other games you bolded, none of them can be played on 360, and they were also updated/enhanced ports.

[BrianC]

Strike No More Heroes then; I had no idea it was released for 360 in Japan; I assumed it was an exclusive due to PS Move controls. As for the other games you bolded, none of them can be played on 360, and they were also updated/enhanced ports.

Yeah, but my point is that they aren't really exclusive to PS3.

[Friendly]

Strike No More Heroes then; I had no idea it was released for 360 in Japan; I assumed it was an exclusive due to PS Move controls. As for the other games you bolded, none of them can be played on 360, and they were also updated/enhanced ports.

Yeah, but my point is that they aren't really exclusive to PS3.

But these versions are exclusives. You can't play ICO/Colossus on PS2 with updated HD graphics. You can't play House of the Dead Overkill Extended Cut on Wii. And you can play neither of these on 360, no matter which version.

Saying these aren't exclusive games is like saying Akai Katana isn't a 360-exclusive, because it was also released in the arcades, and there even was a special consumer PCB.

[BrianC]

Strike No More Heroes then; I had no idea it was released for 360 in Japan; I assumed it was an exclusive due to PS Move controls. As for the other games you bolded, none of them can be played on 360, and they were also updated/enhanced ports.

Yeah, but my point is that they aren't really exclusive to PS3.

But these versions are exclusives. You can't play ICO/Colossus on PS2 with updated HD graphics. You can't play House of the Dead Overkill Extended Cut on Wii. And you can play neither of these on 360, no matter which version.

Saying these aren't exclusive games is like saying Akai Katana isn't a 360-exclusive, because it was also released in the arcades, and there even was a special consumer PCB.

I'm aware they are enhanced versions, but they are still versions of the games that are on other systems. You can't play ICO/Colossus in HD on PS2, but you can still play them on PS2. I'm not sure what this proves anyway, both systems have plenty of good games and many of the best ones for both systems aren't exclusives.

I don't know what to say on Akai Katana since I need to look up more info on port differences, but it's still a port of an arcade game. I'm aware the ports have excluseive features, but a lot of Cave ports are close to the arcade in the arcade mode, so I don't count them as exclusives.

[Friendly]

I'm not sure what this proves anyway, both systems have plenty of good games and many of the best ones for both systems aren't exclusives.

The point was that Skykid is a fanboy. My post only served to disprove this inane "PS3 haz no gaemz". It actually has MORE games.

[mrsmiley381]

I've somehow murdered two PS3's and turned a factory lemon 360 into a working machine, so for me it's been backwards in terms of hardware reliability. My biggest gripes with both consoles are stupidly-forced multiplayer, DLC, and trophies/achievements. Ironic that Sony added them later and yet Microsoft lets you turn off the notifications. I started off with the Wii as my primary console of this gen, followed by the PS3. Ultimately, if Metal Gear Solid 4 had come to the 360 I likely would have skipped on the PS3. The only real exclusives I wanted to play were that, Demon's Souls, and Hyperdimension Neptunia. I just got a new PC, so I've been sticking to that for a while. The bottom line is that each platform has its strengths and weaknesses, as well as its key exclusives. Hell, I'd rather there be more exlcusives for each platform, rather than the same games tweaked for all platforms. At least the 16-bit console wars had that going on.

At least, in terms of shmups, here's how I see the console breakdown:
Wii: Milestone support and Compile/various on Virtual console. Largely irrelevant, as far as I can tell.
360: CAVE and G.Rev primarily, which leads to a few other publishes taking to the platform.
PS3: Sony's high-tech shiny stuff (Super Stardust HD), PS1 classics for Japan. Not as relevant as I'd like.
PC: Indie shmups, Touhou, MAME, various console emulation. Astro Port and ZUN are good reasons to shmup on the PC. Relevant for a lot of different tastes, though unsure how profitable.
Handhels: Don't really know much about iStuffs and hate dodging bullets on a small screen in the first place, so I can't really comment much here.

So, as far as CAVE is concerned, steps would have to be taken to stay afloat. Despite Friendly just sort of shitting all over everything and Last_Dancer's obvious fanboyism, they're partially right about the lack of support for the 360. It's got problems in Japan, the country that hosts more shmup players on average, I'd wager. If CAVE hops on the PS3, the teams responsible for the ports will have to acquire PS3 dev units, which are expensive, as well as learn some new programming tricks if they haven't done PS3 work in the past. The Wii would be a dead end. PC would likely be cost-effective but there's always that looming specter of piracy and whether or not a core CAVE audience is even on the PC. If CAVE hops on the Facebook social gmaing boat there might be a chance for new shmups. If the social games make a lot of money, maybe it'll be a permanent demographic. If not enough is made, CAVE could call it quits for good. Businesses are designed to make money, after all.

So, there. An actual thought about CAVE's future. If anyone would like to comment on this rather than continue the console war, go for it. I'm sure there are a hundred factors I completely missed.

[Estebang]

You failed to mention the Vita, which I predict will be the platform to inherit the 360's role as the genre's primary stronghold. Cave already has two games in development for it: a social game and Untitled Vita Shmup.

[BrianC]

I'm not sure what this proves anyway, both systems have plenty of good games and many of the best ones for both systems aren't exclusives.

The point was that Skykid is a fanboy. My post only served to disprove this inane "PS3 haz no gaemz". It actually has MORE games.

I agree that is silly to say the PS3 has no games, but I don't see the point of mentioning games like the No More Heroes remake, Move Heroes, or Ratchet and Clank All 4 One as examples (I have seen mixed or low reviews for all three). I know those are recent games, but I feel it's the good games that prove how worthy a system is. I'm not completely sure if the PS3 has more games. I know it got more exclusives recently (at least retail ones), but didn't the Xbox 360 have more early on? I think it's moot considering both have tons of worthy games anyway.

[dunpeal2064]

I'm curious, why do you think the Wii would be a dead end for Cave? Not that I disagree, I am just interested.

It seems like, from what I have played on each console, that the Wii caters to both younger gamers, and gamers who are stuck in the past. Perhaps with more successful marketing, the genre could step up? I didn't think platformers and rail shooters could be this popular again, but the Wii proved that wrong. Granted, Ultimate Shooting Collection and Shikigami 3 didn't really hit blockbuster status... but then again, they aren't really blockbuster shooters, even in this small community.

I would assume, though, that the WiiU would be the place to look, and I don't know how well the controls would support it, or if they have the devs to be able to port shmups. I'm sure, like you stated above, they would have to do some costly hiring.

Also, I'm not too savvy on console business, so I could be completely off, but if I am and one of you tells me so, I will have learned something

[Estebang]

Wii sales have sharply declined in the past year, and there's literally only one new (first-party) game for the system announced for Japanese release.

[dunpeal2064]

Wii sales have sharply declined in the past year, and there's literally only one new game for the system announced for Japanese release.

But isn't this most likely because they are planning on a new system release this year? Again, I know very little about this, thats why I'm asking.

It seems like the Vita is the most likely place for them to go, which I will be ok with if they give us some way of hooking the system up to my tv. Otherwise, my neck and eyes just do not get along with portables.

In the end, I'm not good enough at the games Cave has ported in the first place, so I'll be content. Fun to discuss though for sure.

[Friendly]

I'm curious, why do you think the Wii would be a dead end for Cave?

Wii would be a very bad idea due to its terrible attach rate and demographic (casuals). Wii owners buy very few games, and almost all of Wii's best selling games are by Nintendo. Almost everything else bombs.
Furthermore, Wii is dying fast. Like i wrote above, both PS3 and 360 outsold Wii last year.

PS3 dev units, which are expensive

I think it's rather unlikely for Cave to switch to PS3 at this point. It's not because PS3 dev kits are that expensive (they are not, you can get one for $2,000 USD*). The reason is that most/all Cave fans have purchased 360s by now, so those people who really want their games can buy them and have done so. Of course the problem for Cave is that this way their fanbase probably won't grow much in Japan.


*
http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/24/sony ... evelopers/

[StarCreator]

I think it's rather unlikely for Cave to switch to PS3 at this point. It's not because PS3 dev kits are that expensive (they are not, you can get one for less than 10,000 USD afaik, or even less if Sony wants your games). The reason is that most/all Cave fans have purchased 360s by now, so those people who really want their games can buy them and have done so. Of course the problem for Cave is that this way their fanbase probably won't grow much in Japan.

It's worth noting that the shmup base was most likely already attached to the 360 before Cave began releasing their ports - G.rev and others had already built the base and Cave simply went where the fans were.

Plus, above all other issues... with development of the PS3's successor reportedly in full swing, moving to the PS3 right now wouldn't make any sense.

[Friendly]

Sorry, I edited my post while you were posting. Sony actually started selling dev units for $2,000 USD three years ago.

[Estebang]

The Wii is dying because nearly everyone owns an HDTV at this point, and the novelty that drew the casual and non-gamer demographics in has long since worn off.

My grandma's retirement home has a Wii, and it's used for two things: Wii Sports Bowling and the internet browser. For most people nowadays, it's a cheapo Netflix box with the added bonus of bowling.

[emphatic]

Wow this thread sucks.

[MR_Soren]

I thought we were talking about Cave?

[Casper<3]

I'm not sure what this proves anyway, both systems have plenty of good games and many of the best ones for both systems aren't exclusives.

The point was that Skykid is a fanboy. My post only served to disprove this inane "PS3 haz no gaemz". It actually has MORE games.

Actually, I agree with Skykid. The only reason I don't own a PS3 right now is because of the lack of games (that appeal to me).

I'm an arcade gamer, I love shmups & 2D fighters and stuff a long that line which the J360's library excels at, vs the ps3 which is virtually a flatline.

The only things I feel I miss out on by not owning a ps3 is the NIS games. That's it. I don't care about Socom or Killzone or any of the other garbage on those lists. I wouldn't play those games no matter what system they were on. However if we were to flip it, there is so much I would miss out on by not owning a J360.

[Skykid]

This is pretty funny coming from you, looking at your posts concerning PS3. You are just as bad a fanboy as Last_Dancer. Only in reverse. Yes, we get it, almost all shmups are on 360 this gen.

Gimme a break fucknuts. I hate the PS3 and 360 equally, thanks very much.

[Gus]

Wow this thread sucks.

[Barrakketh]

The Wii is dying because nearly everyone owns a Wii at this point

FTFY. With 90 million units shipped (according to a CES 2012 interview) and the next Nintendo console coming out "soon", it's no wonder that sales would be dropping off.

Wow this thread sucks.

Just catching on to that?

[Friendly]

The Wii is dying because nearly everyone owns a Wii at this point

FTFY. With 90 million units shipped (according to a CES 2012 interview) and the next Nintendo console coming out "soon", it's no wonder that sales would be dropping off.

No, it's mainly because Nintendo's own software support for the past ~2+ years has been beyond terrible. Wii sales started to drop BEFORE Wii U was announced. There is virtually nothing coming out for the system. Add to this the vicious cycle of Wii being marketed to casual gamers which lead to an onslaught of casual crap and shovelware, with "core games" selling very badly, which is why most major devs started to ignore the console, which in turn made it uninteresting for non-casuals (=people who actually buy games).
Nintendo made a crapton of money this gen; if they had invested a tiny fraction of this to hire more developers and produce a decent supply of games, Wii would still be doing fine.

[Casper<3]

I'll wait until the Wii is dirt cheap, and then I'll finally play Muramasa (if an XBLA release doesn't happen first), Fragile Dreams, & Sin & Punishment.