The future of Cave

[Alfred]

Your full of shit and don't know what your talking about. You make things up. CAVE/RSG have never released sale numbers for DeathSmiles PAL and DoDonPachi PAL. The fact we are getting a 3rd CAVE game in PAL land is a positive sign.

[Estebang]

Rising Star is owned by fanboys.

I guess the best we can expect from new Cave releases anymore will be piddly smartphone-exclusive sequels making heavy use of recycled assets, which is what Dodonpachi Maximum appears to be. Once those are done...maybe Angry Bees?

[Udderdude]

[Casper<3]

Considering just how saturated XBLA / XBLIG has become, it makes me think MS isnt gonna bring these games over to the next xbox.

There's not a chance in hell that the 360 successor wont' be fully backwards compatible. Besides the fact that it would be suicide on Microsoft's part, the licensing/ownership situation is different this time round, compared to the transition from the original Xbox and the 360, where Microsoft simply weren't able to include the hardware in the new console to allow full backwards compatibility.

They've built a huge online games/dlc library that they're going to want to keep selling to new customers ad-infinitum.

I've been reading lately that microsoft is in no rush to release it's next console and the possibility (best case scenario IMO) that they won't even release a next console. They've stated and stated that unlike previous consoles, they can update xbox whenever they please. (plus they can add to the experience with things like connect) Further, it already takes millions and years to create AAA titles. Not many developers are into their developing cost sky rocketing even more.

[JBueno MD]

I just found something at 360achievements.org…

http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game ... ievements/

does anybody know what this is?

Alleged DoDonPachi game for Windows Phones, seems to be based on both DOJ and DFK, though no official statements yet.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Your full of shit and don't know what your talking about. You make things up. CAVE/RSG have never released sale numbers for DeathSmiles PAL and DoDonPachi PAL. The fact we are getting a 3rd CAVE game in PAL land is a positive sign.

You dont honestly think DDP Resurrection was a hit during a time period when even Rayman Origins nose dived in price? I hope rsg broke even but ild be suprised. What makes me think the game didnt sell well is based on the buzz around the internet, of which there is very little, especially compared to DS and XBLA shmups

Akia Katana was announced before (or at the same time) DDP Res released so sales of DDP have nothing to do with it.

[Last_Dancer]

http://andriasang.com/comzmf/cave_forecasts/

Xbox360-only really was a bad idea.

However, even Companys like Alchemist can port games like Gal Gun to PS3 for some extra $$$, it can't be that hard.

360 only in 2012 is suicide, either switch to multiplatform release on 360 and PS3, or ditch the 360 in favor of Vita and 3DS

[Skykid]

Freakin' Christ, you're like a broken record man.

UD is on PS3, of course it will sell well

I always believed that Shmups will make it on the PS3 eventually

360-only in Japan is suicide, choose PS3 if you actually want to sell games.

This is the real problem of the genre:

Great games for the X360! So what exactly is the problem? Why limit yourself to the console with the lowest userbase? Look at this: http://www.next-gen.biz/news/xbox-360-dead-japan

Some of you might've already been aware of this, but apparently some Japanese brick-and-mortar retailers are deep-sixing their 360 stuff altogether...might partially explain why Cave seems to be moving away from the platform. Errr, 360 was dead on arrival in Japan

No more Arcade games, only Smartphone-apps in the future.

I blame the 360-ports, they sold like sh*t

R.I.P CAVE

Choosing the 360 without a Backup Plan was the wrong decision

Yeah, sure, whatever You ignor the huge list of download Shmups for PS3

Personally, I'd be pretty surprised if there are more shmup ports for PS3 after this

Xbox 360 is the wrong platform for CAVE games, I don't know why CAVE is in love with the 360

All I can say: It has begun!! Similiar to the PS2 and Dreamcast, the PS3 is now getting its first Port from a near-dead console (Xbox360)

The PS3 has no shmups because no-one wants to develop for it regardless of the Japanese market situation. Telling us about it daily isn't going to change that. If you want to play current-gen shmups, buy a 360 and play some or quit whining and be happy with the hand-me-downs for your bloody multimedia blu-ray player.

[Casper<3]

Wow. Last_Dancer, talk about overkill.

[Observer]

Hey, can't blame the guy. If you search my posts, all I do is talk about the PC because that's been my main gaming platform for the last years so, obviously, I would be happier of most shit also gets released there, heh.


Anyway, I blame all this on Instant Brain... and lack of a decent supply of fuck pillows.


edit: because text isn't good to show ironies and such, I'm not being serious. Some people take things way too seriously, jeez.

[mrsmiley381]

Anyway, I blame all this on Instant Brain... and lack of a decent supply of fuck pillows.

If CAVE licensed adult items based on Deathsmiles they would never make another shooter anyway. They'd be set for a few years just printing and selling the damn things.

I don't like CAVE as much as a lot of you, but I'd hate to see one of the last remaining scrolling shooter companies stop making their original specialty. I'm getting more and more disenfranchised with video games and losing a huge player in a very tight, challenging, and rewarding genre would certainly add to the disappointment.

[Marc]

It's possible I'm not truly grasping how terrible, skill wise, the average gamer is at this genre, and also that many are playing with edited settings in not score attack disabling achievements, but still, these numbers seem really, really low to me. If they don't care about scoring and they don't care about achievements then that just leaves flying around and shooting shit and looking at pretty colors which I guess is where the whole boring thing comes from.

You don't mate, honestly. I'm about number 56 on the UK board at the min - if 3 bil is small fry to you I take my hat off. I play for both survival, and to try and learn the mechanics, sadly various factors mean that I don't spend the time I'd like to playing, but even if I had the time I doubt I'd be at the same level as some on these boards, and I'm fine with that. I don't find it boring at all, simply because it's what I grew up with, and with three kids and a job, arcade gaming is where I'm at. It sin't a self-conscious 'look at my retroness' kind of thing, it simply fits my life.

There main problem is that we really, as 'insiders', don't understand how impenetrable these games can be to a 'normal' gamer. As I said, I'm mid 30's, so still have friends that grew up with me and the C64, SNES, MD... They've played Flying Shark/Zero Wing/Gynoug etc before so aren't blind to the genre as such, but stick them in front of a Cave shooter and the reaction is startling. I'm average at these games at best, so I don't speak with any kind of elitism whatsoever, but I thought I'd try and show DDP:R to a mate last week. He's finished UN Squadron, Super R-Type, Gradius 3 and a whole bunch of SNES shooters back in the day (and we used to stick them straight on hard, because we had to save for them ourselves, and a game usually had to last 3 months or so before we could afford another), and his reaction...

He wanted to know why the fuck there were so many versions on one screen (I bought the DLC, so there's 1.50, 1.51, Arrange A, Arrange B & Death Label). Then he simply couldn't believe the number of bullets on screen. Then he couldn't get his head around why he seemed to go 'through' some bullets - because he was used to old-school, where the ship WAS the hitbox. Eventually, he just looked puzzled and annoyed, and told me how glad he was that he hadn't paid money for it. And this is some dude that, because he's been gaming so long, had already bypassed the first reaction a lot of todays would have - 'Fuck, the graphics are shit'.

It's kind of how Vs fighter went. Anyone could grasp the basics of SF2 Turbo, and start to peel back the intricacies in their own time, but by the time SF 3 arrived, it was pretty much impenetrable to anyone that hadn't grown with the genre. Shmups have kind of ended up like that these days, and maybe if anyone had the balls to put out one that stripped the entire concept back to basics - survival, and a clear, simple scoring system, maybe it would draw in a few more middle-aged, nostalgic gamers, but the fact is, the average Cave shooter looks like utter, unmanageable chaos to the average, at least in my experience of trying.

I dunno, I've seen Shmups written off a lot over the last decade or two, but I actually do think this next year or two may be the swan song as far as games for home systems go. I honestly thought the market was there, even if only for sensibly-priced digital downloads, but the general public must be even more conservative then I ever guessed.

[Estebang]

Shmups have kind of ended up like that these days, and maybe if anyone had the balls to put out one that stripped the entire concept back to basics - survival, and a clear, simple scoring system, maybe it would draw in a few more middle-aged, nostalgic gamers

Eschatos Normal mode.

[cools]

if anyone had the balls to put out one that stripped the entire concept back to basics - survival, and a clear, simple scoring system, maybe it would draw in a few more middle-aged, nostalgic gamers

Raiden IV?

[Marc]

AFAIK, not available in shops or online in the UK - obviously I can only speak for the situation here.

[Estebang]

Yeah, the whole shtick of Raiden III and IV is an appeal to nostalgia. Otherwise, they just would have expanded on the Raiden Fighters formula even further, which had reached Garegga-esque levels of obtuseness and difficulty by Jet.

The problem is that all the middle-aged nostalgics have either moved on from their hobby due to families and jobs, or they forgot what was so great about their childhood games and got suckered in by CoD/WoW/Arkham Asylum/whatever else is getting TV ads today. Raiden just doesn't have the same cultural appeal as something like Elder Scrolls or GTA, either. It's a childish fantasy (of super future fighter planes) presented with maturity, while most blockbuster games have mature settings depicted in a very puerile manner. People liked Raiden back in the day, but there's the pervasive idea that gaming has "evolved" to the point where anyone in their right mind has "outgrown" that stuff. Stuff like Deathsmiles just makes the average American confused and uncomfortable, for the same reasons that Evangelion can't ever have mainstream appeal outside Japan.

[RNGmaster]

itt we refight the console wars

Even /v/, the dumbest forum on the internet, is tired of this shit.

[Estebang]

I don't know what you mean; it's not like we're still whining about the Dreamcast having failed? Good vs. bad game design--and the abandonment of entire genres--shouldn't have anything to do with TEH KONSOLE WARZ.

[Observer]

Shmups have kind of ended up like that these days, and maybe if anyone had the balls to put out one that stripped the entire concept back to basics - survival, and a clear, simple scoring system, maybe it would draw in a few more middle-aged, nostalgic gamers, but the fact is, the average Cave shooter looks like utter, unmanageable chaos to the average, at least in my experience of trying.

I dunno, I've seen Shmups written off a lot over the last decade or two, but I actually do think this next year or two may be the swan song as far as games for home systems go. I honestly thought the market was there, even if only for sensibly-priced digital downloads, but the general public must be even more conservative then I ever guessed.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/94200/
Decently priced, Neo-Geo-like pretty pixel art (and small dudes with muskets), excellent music by fellow latin american composer, betentacled aliens and their spanish allies, great heaping fusillades of missiles, elegant and simple Vaunt system, challenges everywhere, selectable stages, limited continues, decent difficulty curve. I've never seen people trying this hard to make an introductory shmup. To say even that crappy thing called Metascore has ranked it pretty high has to mean something.

Of course it's far from perfect, it has many flaws but I applaud the guys for focusing on making an introductory shmup without scaring the living shit out of everyone.

[hail good sir]

respect

[Cuilan]

The only games that make sense to port to other consoles are Deathsmiles 2X (for reasons already mentioned) and Instant Brain. Akai Katana is already getting a Vita port, so that's covered for now.

Instant Brain is the one that really needs a port here though, since that game had the worst sales of all Cave games released this generation. A Vita port for that one would make sense, considering the game's features and the fact that Cave already has Vita dev kits and some experience with it. Would work well on iDevices/smartphones too. And if they're feeling really desperate, porting it to PC would also be a good idea, if they include the "expected extras".

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Hey, can't blame the guy. If you search my posts, all I do is talk about the PC because that's been my main gaming platform for the last years so, obviously, I would be happier of most shit also gets released there, heh.
edit: because text isn't good to show ironies and such, I'm not being serious. Some people take things way too seriously, jeez.

True but there is a number of PC only shmuppers who are quite happy with MAME and Doujin to bother with CAVE's 360 titles.

I dunno, I've seen Shmups written off a lot over the last decade or two, but I actually do think this next year or two may be the swan song as far as games for home systems go. I honestly thought the market was there, even if only for sensibly-priced digital downloads, but the general public must be even more conservative then I ever guessed.

I think there is a market for shmups, just not big enough of a market to sustain all the shmups that are avaliable on on the 360. There were a large number of shmups that came out towards the end of 2010 and the first half of 2011. And MS is crap at promoting new titles

[PinkSweets]

Akai Katana is already getting a Vita port, so that's covered for now.

http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=1824

Sounds like it was just a rumor.

[Cuilan]

Stuff like Deathsmiles just makes the average American confused and uncomfortable...

And yet, it's managed to sell better than just about every other retail shmup released this generation (by a large margin in most cases).

http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=1824

Sounds like it was just a rumor.

If that's the case, then they should consider porting it. It's still true that Cave is working on a Vita game, is it not? If so, that would still show that they have Vita dev kits and some experience working on it.

[PinkSweets]

Yeah, it is true. Asada has said that Cave will release a game on the Vita, but he never revealed what it was. In a past interview, if I remember correctly, he stated that it would be an original title.

[Eaglet]

Might just be damage control though.
If AK Vita is one of the cancelled games it's easy to just blame it on failed translation (not the first time it has happened) and save face while doing it.

[PinkSweets]

I suppose it's possible that it was in development and was cancelled for whatever reason. Blaming translation is the perfect opportunity to avoid outraged fans.

If that's the case, it's unfortunate - Akai Katana Shin seems to appeal to importers much more than say, Instant Brain

[bcass]

I think there is a market for shmups, just not big enough of a market to sustain all the shmups that are avaliable on on the 360.

Of course, the Japanese companies haven't helped themselves much by cocooning themselves into the Japanese retail market for so long. Region free is a total non-starter for serious sales due to excessive prices for imports. Cave could have all their games up on the Games on Demand services all over the world (excluding Japan) by now, but no, they're dragging their heels trying to milk at retail, which was never going to be met with any significant success outside Japan.

[chempop]

Part of me is thinking, shucks, so no deathsmiles 3, galuda 3, or mushi 3 around the corner...
...the other part couldn't care less because we already got a decade worth of titles ported in the last 2.5 years.

What I don't get though is why have they put so much effort into western fanbase (English twitter and Facebook pages, cave store etc.) if they were to bail on their shooting game fans. The question almost answers itself though, perhaps they just want to take this next year to try a few new things with mobile and social games, while still maintaining regular news and branded products for their flagship titles so fans don't loose interest. I think it's wise for them to see how things go with Android ports, Vita sales, EU-region releases, before spending big bucks developibg their next big shmup.

What I'd like to know is what kind of profit they've made from iOS ports?!

[MJR]

I think there is a market for shmups, just not big enough of a market to sustain all the shmups that are avaliable on on the 360.

Of course, the Japanese companies haven't helped themselves much by cocooning themselves into the Japanese retail market for so long. Region free is a total non-starter for serious sales due to excessive prices for imports. Cave could have all their games up on the Games on Demand services all over the world (excluding Japan) by now, but no, they're dragging their heels trying to milk at retail, which was never going to be met with any significant success outside Japan.

This is probably one of the reasons. I said it before in this thread and I say it again, but PSN really rescued Housemarque where I work at, Super stardust HD was great success, and therefore we still are able to create traditional shoot'em ups along other games. It's amazing that Cave survived with retail (and arcade!!!) that long and even more amazing that they got releases outside japan, but still they should invest more heavily on PSN and XBLA.

Don't get me wrong, being able to buy 2D shmups from retail is really awesome, but I wish Cave to stay in the shmup business as well. I would definitely prefer them to go to PSN rather than facebook, chasing social games wagon these days is probably going to be the express-ticket to oblivion.