Wanting to get better with joysticks

[FamiDriveDuo]

I love arcade-styled games, but I've always wanted to play the them in a more authentic fashion. I just got a HRAP 3 SA in the mail to play on my PC for all my emulators. while it's pretty cool, I've been kinda struggling lately, especially with shmups and fighting games. I don't think I'm too used to arcade controls, but i REALLY want to play my games with a stick. I'm not horrible with it, but i can hardly get the feel for it at times. should i change sticks & buttons? I'm not sure i like sanwa as much as i hoped. the buttons are kinda mushy and the stick feels kinda loose. i've read that seimitsu sticks are a bit more restricted and their buttons are more "clicky"(?) and better for shooters.

I've been having some second thoughts on the stick too, but largely because i wanted a PS2 hori stick, but they're sold out EVERYWHERE, hard to find and seem to cost 2X-3X times more than their current sticks. I eventually caved and bought their recent PS3 stick, but i don't own the actual system and it seem like a waste if i ever got a ps2 stick. (i want to use the PS2 Hori stick for almost everything via converter adapters)

What do you guys suggest? should i swap out my sanwa parts for seimitsu parts (and how do i do that?), or keep training with what i have? would a round gate help with movement as opposed to a square gate?

[SGGG2]

Seimitsu buttons have a better feel to them and aren't as sensitive. On ocassion, I find myself brushing sanwa buttons by accident. I'm not a fan of the loose feel to the JLF either, I ordered another spring to see if it feels better with extra tension.

[Aquas]

Stick with it for a while longer, untill you switch things up, I say. Maybe it's the way you're setting up your play space? Like, some people just use 'em (HRAPs) in their lap, others set them on a table of some sort. Being comfortable is important, I guess. When I first got my HRAP I wasn't so sure if it was helping my game, but just have fun with it and it won't matter if you're better with a pad if you're having fun with the stick.

[dannnnn]

Well for a start, as everyone always says, it takes time to get used to a stick. It's obviously very different from using a pad and you shouldn't expect to see improved results right off the bat.

I'm certainly no expert on sticks, but I can tell you that the Sanwa JLF joystick is much looser than a Seimitsu LS-32. I prefer to use the LS-32 for shoot-em-ups; it's nice and tight and has a really short deadzone. I tried using the JLF with a few shoot-em-ups when I first got it but I couldn't take to it, when it comes to fast twitch movements the LS-32 is a much better choice IMO. I'm sure there are plenty of people who DO use Sanwa sticks for shoot-em-ups though, so as always it just comes down to preference.

I wouldn't worry too much about the buttons if I were you, Sanwa's are high quality and unless you're hitting buttons by mistake (due to their sensitivity), I wouldn't fuss too much about changing them.

As for gates, I bought a round gate with my LS-32 and have never even used it, a square gate is perfectly fine.

I would recommend playing with your stick as it is for a few weeks just to get used to it, then if you're still not happy perhaps think about buying an LS-32 (or a different Seimitsu joystick) and trying that instead.

[neorichieb1971]

Stick to shooters and platforming games first of all. Fighting games can take a while since they use all sorts of combos and such. Joysticks are better (especially if the original game used them) but its best to stick with simpler games if your not used to them.

[ECZangief]

IMO stick with the JLF a bit longer. It isn't historically favored over the Seimitsu LS-32 for shooters, but it's still a great stick to learn on. The key to really progressing on a stick is to understand how they work, and how each component effects your ability to make your inputs quickly and precisely. So the only way to learn from the stick you have is to use it more. Definitely think about a Seimitsu stick though in the future, especially for shooters. I've heard people with this same predicament say that going from a JLF to an LS-32 wasn't as big a change as they hoped, so you might consider jumping to something like an LS-55.

my 0.02

[brokenhalo]

"stick" with it (lolol). it took me about 3 months of hour+ days of third strike to get as good with a stick as i was with a pad. there were times when i just wanted to quit stick because i'd lose a match because i messed up an input, but i'm glad i didn't. my playing has improved so much since i switched to stick it's unbelievable. you probably don't like the sanwa just because you aren't used to sticks, or you're used to american sticks. you'll probably be just as uncomfortable with a seimitsu. just keep at it, it'll "click" eventually.

man, i'm awful with puns this post.

[SGGG2]

I added the LS-33 spring (in addition to the stock spring) to the JLF, and I'm loving it. The tension feels perfect. Gonna try some electrical tape and post-it notes next.

JLF Ultimate mod: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytcbzZmXaI

[SephirothFF]

Just got a quanba and replaced the stock Sanwa with a seimitsu LS32. I know the LS32 is the preferred stick for shmups but for some reason I'm not finding it as sensitive as I would expect.

What I mean by this is that one directional click moves my character too many pixels and I find it hard to navigate smoothly through dense bullet patterns on cave games (e.g. Espgaluda II on Xbox 360). I have seen some of the Cave superplays and these guys seem to have total control over the character's movement almost like they are using a touch screen. Is this just technique and practise with the stick?

Would really appreciate any tips!

[cools]

Is this just technique and practise with the stick?

Yes.

[Aliquantic]

I personally disagree that it's only practice, and I believe your grip and technique also play a role for the really tight dodging you see in superplays. You do need to be able to exert enough control on the stick so you can tap very precisely, so I'd recommend experimenting with a few different grips for a few days and see what feels tightest for you, then practice a lot

(I do have a fairly bent and weak wrist though, so your mileage may vary)

[SephirothFF]

Cheers - that's really useful.

[kernow]

Stop thinking about what type of stick and grip to use, hold it however it's comfortable, and just keep using it, whatever make or flavour of stick it is.

When I was 14 I sure didn't care what stick it was, and it was fine. People obsess over details too much, just use it more and you'll get better.

(I do have a fairly bent and weak wrist though, so your mileage may vary)

[burgerkingdiamond]

Many people use a Seimitsu LS-32 stick. I'm a fan.

I don't really see how buttons can affect gameplay too much (maybe fighters, but in shmups you pretty much have the fire button held down the entire time). The only small complaint would be accidentally using a bomb from resting your finger on Sanwa buttons because they're so sensitive. Seimitsu's don't have that problem.

[Aliquantic]

People obsess over details too much, just use it more and you'll get better.

It's not a detail when it affects your ability to, you know, actually dodge... this becomes clearer when you start tackling higher difficulties... and given how much talk there is about scanlines and image quality, I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who enjoy obsessing over details in their setup

[system11]

It's pretty simple in my opinion. Arcade sticks were designed to be put in cabinets, placed at a particular height that makes them comfortable to use. A cabinet is a heavy, static thing. An 'arcade stick' for console is not - unless you bolt it to a table or something, it's never going to perform the way it's supposed to.

And that is why I stick to pads, because sticks are awful unless they're bolted to something that doesn't move.

[StarCreator]

I can't say I've ever had an issue just setting a stick of reasonable weight on a table. The grippy rubber feet on most of them do a fine job keeping it from moving around during use.

[Drachenherz]

It's pretty simple in my opinion. Arcade sticks were designed to be put in cabinets, placed at a particular height that makes them comfortable to use. A cabinet is a heavy, static thing. An 'arcade stick' for console is not - unless you bolt it to a table or something, it's never going to perform the way it's supposed to.

And that is why I stick to pads, because sticks are awful unless they're bolted to something that doesn't move.

I usually play with the stick in my lap, and it's stable, sturdy and doesn't move around at all.

Uhh... This sounded terribly wrong...

[kernow]

If the stick is heavy enough it really doesn't move around a great deal, theres a lot of good solid sticks. Also I know some people when they play cabs or arcade games they suddenly have an epileptic fit and try to break the stick or something. A lot of people have commented on my subtle, precise movements and don't understand how I can play properly when moving stick like it. Annoying to see people who don't really use sticks or cabs, smashing the shit out of it.

[monouchi]

LS-56 for shmups, shorter throw and earlier engage than the 32.
LS-58 is awesome too but not as fast going back to the center.

[Raytrace]

yeh definitely it takes time for sticks to be 'better' for some people - for example for me, while sticks definitely make my shmup skills a lot better (in other words still abysmal) - in 2D fighters (or anything where fireball or dragonpunch motions are required) I am way better at them with a decent d-pad (SEGA Saturn or MadCatz SF IV) - no matter how hard I try and force myself to play 2D fighters with a stick. Tekken and Soul Calibur however, I am better with stick than pad (I played Tekken 3 in the arcade quite a lot)...

[system11]

I'm significantly better at shooters on a cab using Suzo 500 variants (tried two types so far, a third type incoming which is half way between the two). They have virtually no throw, it's great.

[emphatic]

it's great.

I fully agree. I haven't tried the LS-56 yet though, but I have one coming and I'm very curious. The SUZO's no longer in production so get it while you can.

[SGGG2]

I managed to fit an LS-56 in my Agetec, and I love it. The best stick I've used so far. I've gotten used to Sanwa buttons and can't imagine using anything else at this point. Where's the best place to look for a Suzo?

[system11]

it's great.

I fully agree. I haven't tried the LS-56 yet though, but I have one coming and I'm very curious. The SUZO's no longer in production so get it while you can.

I've been telling people to use these for years, I've got a box of about 16 of the really old types and 4 of the newest, just none inbetween (yet!) - all in the post somewhere, or will be soon.

[man9child]

Haven't used an LS-56, but an LS-40 is really good for shmups as well. It's a little too sensitive for my liking for fighters, so I tend to use an LS-32 as an all purpose stick, but really, all you need is a few days to adjust and you'll get used to whatever is mounted in your cab/stick.

I wouldn't worry about what buttons you're using. So long as they work properly, they'd be the last thing I'd change.

[SGGG2]

Haven't used an LS-56, but an LS-40 is really good for shmups as well. It's a little too sensitive for my liking for fighters

I know I'm in the minority here, but I vastly prefer the short throw on the LS-56 for, well, everything -- including fighters, even if it feels a little sensitive for certain moves. The JLF felt great (with the spring mod, good without) but I kept missing moves every now and then because my throw motions were too small. When I push the stick in a direction I expect something to happen...

so I tend to use an LS-32 as an all purpose stick, but really, all you need is a few days to adjust and you'll get used to whatever is mounted in your cab/stick.

And I couldn't believe the difference for bullet hell games, I'm not great at them by any means (don't really put in a ton of effort or play time) but I swear my performances almost doubled immediately. I was used to the JLF, didn't mean there wasn't something way better suited for me. For others it might be the opposite.

I wouldn't worry about what buttons you're using. So long as they work properly, they'd be the last thing I'd change.

Well, I'm starting to get a little older (and I know I'm not the only one ) repetitive motion strain is a big concern, seriously, it can screw up your life in ways you barely imagine -- pushing translucent Seimitsu's, or the 360's hard candy buttons actually friggin hurt my hand big time. Regular Seimitsu's are fine, but the Sanwa's are perfect in this regard.

[man9child]

I didn't know there was a difference in feel with the skeleton semitsus and the regular. I've only ever used the clear ones myself.

If we're going to get really picky, my favorite buttons are the yellow hori buttons on the PSX Namco stick. They feel like semitsus but they're even flatter.

[matrigs]

well if the stick would be meant to be used exclusively for shmups i would rather recommend modding the jlf or switching to another stick.

but if it is meant to be used a lot for fighting games and other stuff i would leave it as it is. but definitely buy the octagonal restrictor. the jlf is far from great but it is a good alround stick that will allow you to get good at any kind of game. keep in mind that it is also the standard in most arcade cabs in japan for a reason.

when it comes to engage/throw you can always experiment with it - you can use some tape around the actuator as shown in the jlf mod youtube. it's pretty easy, allows to modify it to your liking. it will wear off fast in fighting games, but it's meant to be a temporary solution.

one thing that was stated before several times is very important - you have to feel comfortably. after a lot of recommendations i actually bought an ls-32 which resulted in failing at any game as it was simply too stiff for me. i would not be able to make very short movements and my hand would start aching after a while.

i also hate the ls-32 for having this "hop" when you hit the restrictor but are still able to move the stick further. it feels horrible when you are in a tight situation and you have to punch the stick hard.

i also have a problem with bearing-based sticks (the ls-32 but the jlf as well) with this "initial wobble" before the spring starts working. but especially in the ls-32 the combination of the very light movement at the beginning and then the hard spring was annoying.

i ended buying an ls-33 and it's the perfect stick for me right now. everything is just right.

oh and check out kowals site :

http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_pliki/eapJOY.htm

a lot of technical info about the sticks.