Devil's Third- Itagaki's new game

[Estebang]

Bayonetta has an utterly thoughtless bullet-time system, effortless input-friendly combos, lots of punching bag enemies, shitty bosses, and QTEs that result in abrupt insta-deaths if you miss.

Certainly, it's a huge step up from the likes of God of War and Heavenly Sword, but in so many areas it still falls short of the standards set by the DMC and Ninja Gaiden series.

[kid aphex]

Bayonetta has an utterly thoughtless bullet-time system, effortless input-friendly combos, lots of punching bag enemies, shitty bosses, and QTEs that result in abrupt insta-deaths if you miss.

Certainly, it's a huge step up from the likes of God of War and Heavenly Sword, but in so many areas it still falls short of the standards set by the DMC and Ninja Gaiden series.

*clutches chest*

[iconoclast]

Bayonetta has ten "different" weapons, but a few of them are just clones with negligible differences (eg. Scarborough Fair, Onyx Roses, Bazillions, Pillow Talk). Not to mention there isn't much difference between any weapons when they're equipped to your feet, aside from the Odette. But I guess it's still better than nothing. (Compare that to Ninja Gaiden II, which has 8 completely unique melee weapons )

The challenge rooms are my biggest gripe with the game. They're fine the first time around, but once you realize you have to do those tedious "jump on this guy's head for 30 seconds" or "only use punch 5 times and kick 10 times" missions every single time you want to run through a chapter for score, it just makes me not want to play period. In Devil May Cry, those types of challenge rooms are one-off areas that you do once, get the reward, and never touch again. That's how it should've been done.

Actually, my biggest gripe with the game would be that horrible Space Harrier level. God damn. Though they stopped it from being completely awful with an awesome boss fight at the end with Jeanne.

It's also way too easy, even on NSIC. But it's still a great game, don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a sequel some day.

[Skykid]

QTEs that result in abrupt insta-deaths if you miss.

I think Bayonetta has the worst implemented, most ill-judged QTE sequences I've ever played. If ever I was twitching for the off button during play, it would be because of the way the QTE's would kill the flow of the game totally dead. The reaction time window available for some is bordering on ludicrous, even on repeat attempts.

[Zaarock]

Bayonetta has an utterly thoughtless bullet-time system

IDK what problems about it you're referring to but you can play infinite climax mode instead, I'd imagine part of the reason for them putting it in was pleasing people who find the slow-mo stupid.

effortless input-friendly combos

What? there are some simple bread and butter combos for most weapons, but you'll get shitty scores and ranks if you spam them. There are lots of proper combos and freedom to combine other weapons for them (as you could see from pretty much any combo video for the game).

random videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_tqE30K6oo

shitty bosses

This is your standard for shit? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AShfjmJPqHg what do you expect then?

It's also way too easy, even on NSIC. But it's still a great game, don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a sequel some day.

True, it's very easy to "survive" through because of all the checkpoints which is a negative I guess. The ranking system being pretty good makes up for it IMO. And there is an abundance of challenge runs you can do of course, I haven't even done a run with the gaze of despair equipped yet (makes all enemies & bosses more stronger and aggressive, increases score)

I haven't even played through the Angel Slayer level though, heh. Too bad that one doesn't have a leaderboard, seeing as it's the most straight forward.

the QTEs are bad but they're a minor part of the game. Can hardly say they change the quality of the game much.

[iconoclast]

True, it's very easy to "survive" through because of all the checkpoints which is a negative I guess. The ranking system being pretty good makes up for it IMO. And there is an abundance of challenge runs you can do of course, I haven't even done a run with the gaze of despair equipped yet (makes all enemies & bosses more stronger and aggressive, increases score)

Yeah, I liked Bayonetta's scoring system a lot (which makes me dislike the challenge rooms even more), but the Kilgore glitch kinda ruins the leaderboards. Most action games like this have some type of exploit though, so it's not big a deal.

And it's true, it's easy to play for survival, but playing for score and/or doing a Pure Platinum run is pretty challenging. Kinda like Cave games over the last few years.

[kid aphex]

This thread makes me want to play Bayonetta again, but I've nothing left to unlock
Is the PS3 framerate still fucked beyond repair?

[DragonInstall]

QTEs that result in abrupt insta-deaths if you miss.

I think Bayonetta has the worst implemented, most ill-judged QTE sequences I've ever played. If ever I was twitching for the off button during play, it would be because of the way the QTE's would kill the flow of the game totally dead. The reaction time window available for some is bordering on ludicrous, even on repeat attempts.

I know a game that tops that. Knights Contract... This game has the most brutal QTE hands down. Every boss has about 4-6 QTE that happen when you take all of it's life away. If you fail, it regains a ton of health or you just die.(Bosses can take 5-15 min to drain the health down) The second to last boss has 2 forms and 4 QTE for the first form than 3 for the last... If you die on the fucking QTE at the second form, it's game over and you have to do both forms and the QTE AGAIN.

But the main issue is how quick you have to be. You're given a fraction of a second to respond, so eventually it comes down to memorizing and writing down what to push every time you fail. But even with that, at the hardest difficulty I still fuck up knowing what button is coming next. Then I told myself, "Maybe I should mash the button." But nope that doesn't work, because the gap between the button press is enough to fail and the directional inputs seem very picky. You literally have to be on your toes with your finger twitching to push.

It's like Kirby's Super Star samurai mini game, with the difficulty in every push that of vs metaknight. Like 1/8 of a second to push the button. I don't consider myself a slow reactor either... I play fighting games so I'm used to being forced to react to things, but this game is just wow.

Although... asides from that glaring flaw(hardest difficulty QTE) the game is decent. An underrated low budget game. It has great style, decent story, very creative boss fights and they look badass also. The gameplay mechanic is pretty fun, having to utilize the witch's spell and the knights combos together.

[Strider77]

Somebody barely sunk there teeth in bayonetta but likes to pretend they know it all. Play climax mode if you don't like the bullet time. The different difficulty modes actually rearrange the game and enemies. The QTE were not even difficult in the slightest...

More blind snobbery and hate... makes for great reading though. Still I am so use to the ignorant rants directed against NG. I've heard so many false accusations on those games it's like reading fiction mixed with a sob story.

@DragonInstall

Is Knights Contract worth playing? It was on my radar but was panned so hard in reviews I was afraid to purchase it.

@Estebang

Same things goes for Quantum Theory.. it was panned so hard I feared fringe it out. Is it recent?

[evil_ash_xero]

One thing I didn't like about Bayonetta, was how I kept having to fight the same bosses over and over. I mean, you have to do that, in other games, like twice...but those guys just kept showing up again and again and again.

DIE ALREADY!

[kccttzj]

This thread makes me want to play Bayonetta again

That's pretty much all I've gotten out of this thread.

[CMoon]

Since this is now the Bayonetta thread... I certainly enjoyed Bayonetta, but I also think it had a lot of design flaws that pushed me away. Most of those have been mentioned already, but it doesn't make it a poor game, it just suffers for them. I don't want to spend forever on it, because if you like said elements, then it doesn't effect you, but yeah, all those challenge stages that were annoying, space harrier level, the dumb mini-game between levels, just poor level design in general, pacing, etc. I feel like some more thought could have greatly improved this game instead of being subject to whim or a slave to old DMC ideas that were questionable back then.

I really don't get loving this and not liking God Hand. Admittedly, the games aren't really by the same people, and Bayonetta shows its DMC roots--a series I already find problematic. But in terms of challenge, number of things to do, number of things to unlock, variety of ways to play, customization, even total game length, God Hand has every game by Platinum beaten by a mile. I guess I get it if you don't like the game mechanics, but I think the other issues are non-contestable.

[DragonInstall]

@DragonInstall

Is Knights Contract worth playing? It was on my radar but was panned so hard in reviews I was afraid to purchase it.

Don't listen to the reviews that gave it like 3/10. There's is no way this game deserves such a score. I can tell the reviewers didn't know how to play / know all the mechanics the game offers. Many of their complaints have mechanics to help in that situation.

Example: Reviewer, "When Heinrich falls or his body dismembered it takes too long for him to revive no matter how much you mash A. And Gretchen will continually get pummeled and attack the enemies."
No where does he mention that there is a button to call Gretchen to you and that she can revive you to negate the downtime. There are many other examples but meh..

I would say it's a 7/10 type of game... I would not recommend you buy it at full price, but if you can get it for 30 or less it's well worth it. Do not expect Ninja Gaiden quality, but more on the lines of Berserk style combat. The boss designs a really cool though, reminds me of Berserk. Hell the main character reminds me of Guts from Berserk.

What this game does offer is a unique experience I've never had in these types of games. It's a weird feeling to control a huge knight that can never die, having to protect a witch that cursed you. She's basically your hp.. I know we all hate escort missions in games, but it's never really too frustrating, asides from a couple of boss fights were her AI could use some work. Also the combat is pretty fun, utilizing the witch's spell to open up enemies and then ripping the enemies apart with Heinrich.

A tip if you do decide to get it or rent it. Play the role of the knight protecting the princess. Her AI isn't designed to dodge attacks, so if you're dodging a boss attack you should carry her in your arms while avoiding stuff. You actually recover damage and she recovers magic while you're together also, so the game encourages you do this.

[kid aphex]

God Hand has every game by Platinum beaten by a mile. I guess I get it if you don't like the game mechanics, but I think the other issues are non-contestable.

I actually like God Hand a lot and 100%'d it one particularly lonely summer, but ... it's not a good game. The plot/story/whatever is actually (unbeliavably...) stupider than Bayonetta's. Environmental design doesn't exist. Enemy design is just as bad. The hub-world is the most pointless hub-world ever conceived. Casino is useless and ugly. Gene's outfit is whack. And there are a lot of unlockables, but there's no significant design behind them.

I mean ... very obviously, all of he effort (/money) went into it's combat system. Every other aspect of the games design is objectively an ugly mess.

I don't know how so many people can overlook the elegance of design in a game like Bayonetta ... it hurts my heart and breaks my mind

[Deca]

I can't stand that man. I've always thought the newer NGs were trash, lazy game design passed off as difficulty. To be fair I really should go back and give them a second chance as I haven't played them a great deal, but they never made any sort of good impression on me in the hours I spent with them.

[Skykid]

God Hand has every game by Platinum beaten by a mile. I guess I get it if you don't like the game mechanics, but I think the other issues are non-contestable.

I actually like God Hand a lot and 100%'d it one particularly lonely summer, but ... it's not a good game. The plot/story/whatever is actually (unbeliavably...) stupider than Bayonetta's. Environmental design doesn't exist. Enemy design is just as bad. The hub-world is the most pointless hub-world ever conceived. Casino is useless and ugly. Gene's outfit is whack. And there are a lot of unlockables, but there's no significant design behind them.

I mean ... very obviously, all of he effort (/money) went into it's combat system. Every other aspect of the games design is objectively an ugly mess.

I don't know how so many people can overlook the elegance of design in a game like Bayonetta ... it hurts my heart and breaks my mind

The fact that God Hand's slapstick/satire is worn on so obviously on its sleeve made me totally comfortable with it. It makes any aspect of the game - questionable character design etc - totally intentional and therefore acceptable.

Bayonetta is so... nasty in its tone/aesthetic. I spent around 6 hours with the game and deleted my save and restarted from scratch just to see what I was missing. I can't fault the depth of its combat system (even though it errs on the wrong side of out-of-control for my liking) but the character's were just yuck. The dialogue is offensive too: it's all dreadfully puerile and unfunny, and not saved by throwback humour at all.

Boss designs were elegant, graphically, I'll give it that, but I'd hardly call the game tonally appealing - at least not for me.

EDIT: And that terrible recurring theme song... god, I really hate that.

[Acid King]

I can't stand that man. I've always thought the newer NGs were trash, lazy game design passed off as difficulty. To be fair I really should go back and give them a second chance as I haven't played them a great deal, but they never made any sort of good impression on me in the hours I spent with them.

???? Both of the Ninja Gaiden games have some of the best, if not THE best, fighting mechanics of modern 3d action games. Once you understand the weapons and their combos, there is an amazing amount of depth in the combat. The first one had a couple shitty level design choices, but was pretty impeccable otherwise. The second one had better level designs, but the camera was a little more difficult to deal with, atleast until you get a grasp of the controls (particularly using X+A to jump towards the nearest enemy).

[Estebang]

@Estebang

Same things goes for Quantum Theory.. it was panned so hard I feared fringe it out. Is it recent?

Yes, it was out last year. Did you mean to say "decent?" Most certainly! It's an unpretentious little Gears clone that sets out to tell its surprisingly original post-apocalyptic story, test out a few gimmicks, and provide some level of challenge: nothing more, nothing less. It benefits by being a lot less meatheaded and unsubtle than Gears, and there's a thought-provoking reveal at the end that leaves the door open for a sequel that will never happen. Aside from two flashbacks, the entire game takes place in one giant tower and a bit of the area surrounding it, which makes for a very cohesive world. As I mentioned, it's heavily inspired by Berserk, which isn't a bad thing if you're a fan of the series. It might not be worth the $60 it originally went for, but at the ten bucks it goes for now, I'd recommend it to anyone. You'll never be able to find any multiplayer opponents, though.

These are the gimmicks, all of which work quite well:

- AI partner who can participate in melee combos that are difficult and rewarding to pull off, and she can be thrown as a powerful projectile. Although she's immortal, she needs to be revived like a Gears character. Sadly, she's present for less than half of the game.
- Destructible cover, moving walls, shifting and floating platforms: the tower is an organism and its bio-interior is forever changing.
- Platforming sequences: rolling forward will take you off an edge. These could have been poorly integrated but manage to punctuate the gunplay nicely.

There's also an oddball weapon known as the Arc Screamer that generates an invisible damaging field in front of you. While not terribly useful, it's not like any other F/TPS weapon I've seen. The bosses are much better than what Gears has to offer, and the fights rely more on reflexes, strategy and good aiming than Zelda-esque "wait for weakpoint to come out, use item" fare. There isn't a single QTE through the whole game. Curiously, the final boss is almost exactly like Ninja Gaiden 2's penultimate fight.

The one thing it really should have had is a Ninja Gaiden-like ranking system, since there's not much reason to replay the game without one--all Hard mode does is give more HP to enemies and less to you. It's a great experience while it lasts, though.

[Strider77]

@DragonInstall...

I'll give knights contract a try. I'm a Berserk fan so that might be a plus also. Speaking of Berserk, I got the import of Shadows of the Damned not long ago and was surprised to see the manual had art by the same artist as Beserk.

This thread made me play through Shadows of the Damned again this week.

[CMoon]

I actually like God Hand a lot and 100%'d it one particularly lonely summer, but ... it's not a good game.

Don't wanna waste too much time on my opinion vs your opinion, but I think what it comes down to for me is the core gameplay--and that's where I think God Hand is among one of the best action/brawler type games every made. I don't really feel the levels were badly designed but they're nothing special either. Visually it reminds me of Final Fight, which was the point.

The problem I had with bayonetta was actually gameplay and design issues. As you said above, God Hand felt like they put 100% of all their efforts into gameplay, and for me, that's why it was a great game. I would have much rather had an fugly Bayonetta with better gameplay mechanics any day.

[evil_ash_xero]

@DragonInstall...

I'll give knights contract a try. I'm a Berserk fan so that might be a plus also. Speaking of Berserk, I got the import of Shadows of the Damned not long ago and was surprised to see the manual had art by the same artist as Beserk.

This thread made me play through Shadows of the Damned again this week.

I am interested in this game, but a lot of the reviews put me off. They say the controls are kind of off, on average. Is there a demo to try this out? Also, which system does this run better on?

[Zaarock]

I would have much rather had an fugly Bayonetta with better gameplay mechanics any day.

What did you find wrong with the mechanics then? I haven't played the game in a while but remember the combat being very fluid. And with all the moves and abilities the combat seems to have as much freedom as God Hand does to me, at least looking at some high level play. (not that good at the game myself)

[CMoon]

I would have much rather had an fugly Bayonetta with better gameplay mechanics any day.

What did you find wrong with the mechanics then? I haven't played the game in a while but remember the combat being very fluid. And with all the moves and abilities the combat seems to have as much freedom as God Hand does to me, at least looking at some high level play. (not that good at the game myself)

Most of the problems I had were brought up above (Skykid nails some of them, but I think they are a bit more serious than aesthetic). I really need to clarify that most of the problems I had were with the way the game is actually rolled out to you--pacing most of all, shit-tastic level design, objectives that took you completely out of the action. As before, I don't really want to go into a long explanation because it does all come down to opinion and the way you want to experience a game.

[Skykid]

I would have much rather had an fugly Bayonetta with better gameplay mechanics any day.

What did you find wrong with the mechanics then? I haven't played the game in a while but remember the combat being very fluid. And with all the moves and abilities the combat seems to have as much freedom as God Hand does to me, at least looking at some high level play. (not that good at the game myself)

Most of the problems I had were brought up above (Skykid nails some of them, but I think they are a bit more serious than aesthetic). I really need to clarify that most of the problems I had were with the way the game is actually rolled out to you--pacing most of all, shit-tastic level design, objectives that took you completely out of the action. As before, I don't really want to go into a long explanation because it does all come down to opinion and the way you want to experience a game.

I'm sure we went over it thoroughly in different threads. For me, it's really for gamers who get off on deep and detailed combat. Essentially, if you're willing to invest enough time in it to get full control over all the possibilities, you're bound to reap a sense of satisfaction. But that's really all it is. Personally I found NG's combat to clearer and more enjoyable, the stage design and ways you can interact with it far superior, and the aesthetic, flow and pace much preferred - and it's definitely cut from a similar cloth.

My initial biggest gripe with Bayonetta was the scores it received. It can't be a 10/10 as it doesn't even come close to having universal appeal.

[Strider77]

Your one of those people that has to hate on anything popular. "Inception is shit even though I haven't seen it".

Since when does something need to have universal appeal to get a 10. Silence before Bayonetta "how do americans put it... busts a cap in yo ass".

[Skykid]

Your one of those people that has to hate on anything popular.

And you're one of those people who has to hate on me.
I certainly don't have issues with games because they're popular, that's ridiculous. I tend to find the most popular current games (Gears/Halo/MW/Ocarina/Biohazard) all deserved the praise they get, as do plenty of lesser knowns.
I just can't wholeheartedly agree Castlevania: LOS, Bayonetta, DFK 1.5, GT5, Vanquish etc. aren't without some rectifiable issues. If you love all them to absolute bits that's cool, it's not a personal attack.

I also don't like this 'hate' word. It's just criticism. I endeavour with games people regard highly (like you) even if I don't click with them initially. I'm not sure why CMoon is okay to point out what he considers good and bad about something, but if I do it the world comes crashing down?

[Estebang]

My initial biggest gripe with Bayonetta was the scores it received. It can't be a 10/10 as it doesn't even come close to having universal appeal.

While I agree that Bayonetta is praised far higher than it should be, this is ridiculous. Game reviews shouldn't be written like they're for Consumer Reports. If Grandma didn't like the game, why should we give a crap?

[Skykid]

My initial biggest gripe with Bayonetta was the scores it received. It can't be a 10/10 as it doesn't even come close to having universal appeal.

While I agree that Bayonetta is praised far higher than it should be, this is ridiculous. Game reviews shouldn't be written like they're for Consumer Reports. If Grandma didn't like the game, why should we give a crap?

Sorry, I missed that, let me elaborate:

Universal in a gamer sense. I don't expect my mum to be able to play Ocarina of time no matter how friendly it is to pick up and run with. Everything that's a 10 imo (not much) should be accessible by just about anyone with an interest in games, and also be a landmark recognised for changing the gaming landscape (Mario World and RE4 being polar examples.)

I don't believe Bayonetta qualifies in either of those criteria.

[Strider77]

And you're one of those people who has to hate on me.

It's just I've played these games alot and they play great. Usually when folks gripe about the game being poor at these games particular it's due to them being hard or frustrating to the user. Especially Ninja Gaiden.

I've seen your xbox live profile (today actually)and you have 95 points for Bayonetta... you have beaten at most 7 stages in the game. That's with me assuming you have beat 7 and not 4 stages. The game only gives you an achievement for every 4 stages you beat.... 1-4, 5-8 ect. You only have the one for 1-4.

I have close to 800 points in that game and have beat it on all difficulty settings. I wasn't farming to get achievement either, they all happened organically. I'll confess maybe about 5 on there I made an effort for.

The game play's fine.... It's just hard for me to take you serious on the game when you have barely played it much less completed it or came even close to beating it. You've barely experienced it. I get that game can be frustrating, to hard for you, or no motivation to play something for whatever reason. But it's another thing to say it sucks and is badly made. It's like when I hear the average playing say cave games suck b/c they are hard.... they don't suck. They are made for a player that is highly skilled or wants a challenge... it's not something made to just sit back and go through. But even still that's what item hording and difficulty options are for.

I feel the same way when I hear folks wine about camera angles, cheap hits, rocket launchers ect in Ninja Gaiden. Excuses, excuses... if you are failing then "you need some practice". Galuda 2 is another one that I hear folks wine over and it's usually b/c the user doesn't want to invest any time with it. That's fine but it's not the games fault that you aren't good at it.....

I can get how that may sound mighty high brow for me to say or come across as tooting my own boat. But... I just have played the game to death I just know it better inside and out some comments I think (borderline know) are wrong, just like when someone who is casual at a particular fighter and then wines to an expert. If you know better... well you KNOW better.

Bottom line it's hard for me to take what you say above how I feel, or even compare it really, when you haven't seen or played it all the way through. It's kinda like me asking someone if a movie or book is any good and then they give me a 20 min or hour long speech as to why it blows based after 10 minutes or 10 pages; then expect me to take their word over someone who has seen or read something to completion multiple times.

Your really judgemental sometimes and quick to judge also. That's why I have to take your opinion with some salt at times.

[Skykid]

I haven't got any probs with Ninja Gaiden really, I like it a lot.

With Bayonetta, keep in mind I started it through twice on an Asia copy (to play on my EU xbox) and owned it twice, again in Japanese when I got my JP console, on which I gave it a third go (which CHI bought from me.)

Like LOS, I gave it time to establish the reasons why I don't care for it, but also to pay it its dues. I've been paying compliments to the game for exactly the reasons you like it, on this very page:

I can't fault the depth of its combat system

Boss designs were elegant, graphically, I'll give it that

It's really for gamers who get off on deep and detailed combat. Essentially, if you're willing to invest enough time in it to get full control over all the possibilities, you're bound to reap a sense of satisfaction.

Considering the above, and that I said I disliked the tone/aesthetic (something you can judge playing it for all of five minutes) I don't get why you're so upset? If you want to talk about games, let's talk, I don't want to fight man.