Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

[BulletMagnet]

It's not about me believing that it doesn't affect me, but actually making sure I'm immune to its effects.

The question is, do you think that so many others in a position like yours (i.e. people with no "direct" involvement in the mortgage mess and the like) have failed to accomplish this because they're incapable idiots who deserve to be crushed under their own incompetence, or because they simply lack the wherewithal, through little to no fault of their own (once again, they've been under veritable economic assault for years now), to place a sturdy-enough barrier between themselves and the collateral effects of the crisis? It's never a completely cut and dry situation, but which way do you think it's more reasonable to lean when determining where to go next?

[Skykid]

It's not about me believing that it doesn't affect me, but actually making sure I'm immune to its effects.

The question is, do you think that so many others in a position like yours (i.e. people with no "direct" involvement in the mortgage mess and the like) have failed to accomplish this because they're incapable idiots who deserve to be crushed under their own incompetence, or because they simply lack the wherewithal, through little to no fault of their own (once again, they've been under veritable economic assault for years now), to place a sturdy-enough barrier between themselves and the collateral effects of the crisis? It's never a completely cut and dry situation, but which way do you think it's more reasonable to lean when determining where to go next?

The latter of course. People are encouraged to acquire assets, property being the ultimate, to follow a notion of financial stability. The financial crisis was brought about by the most absurd mortgage lending, artificially spiking property values, simply because the mortgage debt could be consolidated and sold for profit the next day.

When the average man enters into a mortgage contract, they don't typically envision that the bank with whom they signed papers is selling that mortgage almost immediately to someone else by way of a CDO package. If it was possible to know what the bankers and lenders were doing behind the scenes and to what magnitude, the crisis would surely have been averted. But if the economists couldn't see it, how can the average homeowner?

Out of interest, are there any homeowners on here who suffered directly from the crisis?

After watching several documentaries I have a feeling the US side of things was really the worst. We did have a bubble in the UK that caused prices to drop sharply once it burst, but I don't think it reached lows whereby it's an impossible recovery.

[Specineff]

It's not about me believing that it doesn't affect me, but actually making sure I'm immune to its effects.

The question is, do you think that so many others in a position like yours (i.e. people with no "direct" involvement in the mortgage mess and the like) have failed to accomplish this because they're incapable idiots who deserve to be crushed under their own incompetence, or because they simply lack the wherewithal, through little to no fault of their own (once again, they've been under veritable economic assault for years now), to place a sturdy-enough barrier between themselves and the collateral effects of the crisis? It's never a completely cut and dry situation, but which way do you think it's more reasonable to lean when determining where to go next?

All I'm saying is, if I can, so can anyone else. I survived one year when all (and I mean ALL) my papers went "missing" thanks to a third party that shall remain unnamed, and I was unable to prove work elegibility or even identity. I didn't get this position. I got there myself with an even worse handicap. So that's why I can't buy the "We're fucked like this because of what Wall St and the banks did to us." excuse.

There's a reason why "I" is called "first person" when conjugating a verb. If people just want to keep on sitting down there and point fingers at whoever caused this crisis, fine. Their choice. But in the end, one is responsible for getting up after falling, shaking off the dust, and continue forward, regardless if it was someone else, a rock, or whatever what made a person trip and fall.

EDIT: Don't think I lack empathy for people who are in the pits because of this situation. What I lack is sympathy for the finger-pointing and the "someone else should fix my problems because I didn't cause them" attitude.

[xbl0x180]

Let's just hope that your immunity to the effects of financial and legislative mismanagement is actually true. God forbid you should ever be ill, be laid off your job, have your job transferred to a foreign country, or you are used as an excuse to explain society's ills. Hey, I'm immune to your misfortunes. It has nuthin' to do with me. I'm sure that's what German citizens were saying to themselves back in the 30s and early 40s, too, or what Argentinian and Chilean citizens were saying to themselves as they saw people around them "disappearing"

[Specineff]

Let's just hope that your immunity to the effects of financial and legislative mismanagement is actually true. God forbid you should ever be ill, be laid off your job, have your job transferred to a foreign country, or you are used as an excuse to explain society's ills. Hey, I'm immune to your misfortunes. It has nuthin' to do with me. I'm sure that's what German citizens were saying to themselves back in the 30s and early 40s, too, or what Argentinian and Chilean citizens were saying to themselves as they saw people around them "disappearing"

Been there. Done that. And came through. And if that wasn't enough, I had done it before with one of the worst handicaps. Please check the part where I stated that I didn't have any of my papers all of a sudden.

I'm not saying I don't care. I'm saying that if I was able to get back on my feet after all that crap, anyone can.

[Randorama]

Well, now that I know how that ball rolls, I'm taking steps to make sure I don't end up in an underwater mortgage. It's not about me believing that it doesn't affect me, but actually making sure I'm immune to its effects.

Ok, but:

EDIT: Don't think I lack empathy for people who are in the pits because of this situation. What I lack is sympathy for the finger-pointing and the "someone else should fix my problems because I didn't cause them" attitude.

I think that we're missing a point here.

The current crisis has been caused mostly by infinitely poor judgment by greedy bankers. If you think that the single citizen is not doing anything to block, say, the debt problem caused by DECADES of irrational economic policies (say, derivatives). Here, finger-pointing is hardly out of place: specific people are guilty, end of the story.

Useful? I'd say it isn't. Maybe even less useful than voting (eh, Democracy).

Private debt, like mortgage, is a slightly different matter, although part of the matter. So, if John Doe suddenly can't pay the mortgage because of his bank closing because of poor choices, which were made possible by the ones we were pointing fingers at, then blaming John Doe because he should have known well is avoiding to blame the ones who actually made a mess in the first place.

Are you blaming the victim for the act of the guilty? That's what your posts and your "I survived hell, nothing's impossible" absolutely callous attitude seem to presuppose. So, if this is NOT what you meant in the first place, you may need to take greater care in what you write down, because I am getting this message through your posts, and I am not the only one, judging by the answers.

Given the first post I quoted, I'd say that you mean something like "dodge bullshit, know that you're surrounded by sharks, and if you still fall, your loss". Vitriolic, but fair. But the whole "they won't come for me" belief is a bit out of place, and simply *too naive*, if you know an acceptable modicum of history, and you seem not to. See Xblox's post (!@#! your nick is, sorry).

[BulletMagnet]

I'm saying that if I was able to get back on my feet after all that crap, anyone can.

I have no reason to doubt that the hole you managed to dig yourself out of was a formidable one and that you worked hard to do it, but at the same time you seem to be suggesting that nobody out there could possibly be dealing with a worse situation than you did, which strikes me as a long way to go in seeking a means of saying that nobody else ought to have an "excuse" for not having fixed their life up the way you have.

Again I ask you, do you truly believe that most of those who have failed where you succeeded fell short primarily because, instead of trying their very hardest to fix things on their own, they've instead been sitting around twiddling their thumbs and griping about how nobody's doing everything for them? You've certainly appeared to suggest as much.

[Ex-Cyber]

It's not about me believing that it doesn't affect me, but actually making sure I'm immune to its effects.

Yeah, I bet that's what this lady thought too.

This is not an isolated incident, it just happened to be the first relevant Google hit among swarms of shady websites urging me to buy foreclosed homes. Several state Attorneys General have either begun investigations or sued banks over this kind of thing. And that is just one facet of the current clusterfuck.

You want to play the game by the rules, and that's great. Sadly, the bank (or the insurance company, or the police department) sometimes just decides to reach across the board and grab your pieces. Every time they do this, we just tut-tut at them for a bit (or even say that the victim brought it on themselves by failing to be absolutely perfect in every possible way) and then invite them back for another round.

You want to be immune to this? Go live in an undocumented shack in the mountains, and you might have a chance.

[xbl0x180]

Let's just hope that your immunity to the effects of financial and legislative mismanagement is actually true. God forbid you should ever be ill, be laid off your job, have your job transferred to a foreign country, or you are used as an excuse to explain society's ills. Hey, I'm immune to your misfortunes. It has nuthin' to do with me. I'm sure that's what German citizens were saying to themselves back in the 30s and early 40s, too, or what Argentinian and Chilean citizens were saying to themselves as they saw people around them "disappearing"

Been there. Done that. And came through. And if that wasn't enough, I had done it before with one of the worst handicaps. Please check the part where I stated that I didn't have any of my papers all of a sudden.

I'm not saying I don't care. I'm saying that if I was able to get back on my feet after all that crap, anyone can.

Me too, but I came out of it with a totally different perspective in life (i.e., if I made it alive out of a civil war, I wouldn't blame the hundreds of thousands of *innocent citizens* for having died in it). Here's a more common statement for what you've been stating here: blame the victim of the crime. If a person were to be mugged, raped, beaten and bullied, etc., then it's their own fault because hey, whether through ability or just pure dumb luck, you've made it through hard times. Hence, what you say reads as grossly naive to me or.... perhaps, you are trying to say something else?

[Hagane]

For maybe the first time in history my country (and my region) is growing steadily and relatively unaffected by the world crisis. It's really funny (or tragic) to see the central countries going through the same awful shit we've been through in 2001-2002 and take the exact same austerity measures to counter it (which will no doubt only worsen the situation just like they did countless times here).

The main reason for all this is not corporate greed or corruption, but because the current system is based mainly around financial speculation instead of production.

[Udderdude]

The Occupy Movement has produced a ginormous list of stuff titled "The 99% Declaration". Pretty damn long, but seems to cover most of their points. At least this will shut up people who were saying "Occupy movement has no message/goal/purpose" (Instead they'll start saying their message/goal/purpose is far to vague to have any meaning, hurr durr)

http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/ ... eclaration

[Skykid]

The Occupy Movement has produced a ginormous list of stuff titled "The 99% Declaration". Pretty damn long, but seems to cover most of their points. At least this will shut up people who were saying "Occupy movement has no message/goal/purpose" (Instead they'll start saying their message/goal/purpose is far to vague to have any meaning, hurr durr)

http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/ ... eclaration

Occupy has moved to my city too, but they've set up on a large plot of grass in the middle of two roads. I feel like going over and telling them to move their asses to somewhere that's going to at least cause a little disruption.

[Randorama]

It's really funny (or tragic) to see the central countries going through the same awful shit we've been through in 2001-2002 and take the exact same austerity measures to counter it (which will no doubt only worsen the situation just like they did countless times here).

It must be said that France and Germany's right wing governments have put the worst imbeciles and far-righters in their ranks, as economics ministers (Lagarde and now Baroin, Schwalbe or whatever it is spelt). In Italy we first had Berlusconi (...), then a Goldman & Sachs puppet, Mario Monti. Add Rajoy and well, Cameron to the equation. Continent-wise, we have the worst people in power, at the worst moment.

The problem is that, differently from Argentina and Iceland, we can't just default the whole EU and reset everything. The connection between banks and states has, like, 900 years of connections. Unravelling such a web would take the efforts of hundreds of coordinated smart people, or perhaps the cutting of one key gordian node. Which one, I wonder.

@Skykid: I kept forgetting...you made a couple of posts in a row in which you suddenly sounded like you made a random u-turn, due to wacky, Elixir-like choice of words (!). Hence the perplexed question.

[O. Van Bruce]

The Occupy Movement has produced a ginormous list of stuff titled "The 99% Declaration". Pretty damn long, but seems to cover most of their points. At least this will shut up people who were saying "Occupy movement has no message/goal/purpose" (Instead they'll start saying their message/goal/purpose is far to vague to have any meaning, hurr durr)

http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/ ... eclaration

I must said... it was a good, until they said they'll become a political party... political parties are the worst thing democracy has had ever...

Anyway, god job on trying to get a "congress" to make that stuff clear to the stablishment... but, is it really possible for such a thing? Does America really believe in then?

I think the usual left-wingers voters will show their backs to these proposals... if something like this didn't succeed in Europe (A land more reformist than the USA), then I really doubt it will work there...

Even so, I really hope it works because it will be the end of my huge hate towards the USA and their political and social system (I'm southamerican, from Colombia, but I live in Spain).

It's kind of tragic for me and very sad to see this things... very sad and discouraging to see then fail...

[Specineff]

Me too, but I came out of it with a totally different perspective in life (i.e., if I made it alive out of a civil war, I wouldn't blame the hundreds of thousands of *innocent citizens* for having died in it). Here's a more common statement for what you've been stating here: blame the victim of the crime. If a person were to be mugged, raped, beaten and bullied, etc., then it's their own fault because hey, whether through ability or just pure dumb luck, you've made it through hard times. Hence, what you say reads as grossly naive to me or.... perhaps, you are trying to say something else?

Yes, that people should take care of themselves, and not wait for the government to fix their problems, when it was the cause of their problems to begin with. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough.

[Skykid]

@Skykid: I kept forgetting...you made a couple of posts in a row in which you suddenly sounded like you made a random u-turn, due to wacky, Elixir-like choice of words (!). Hence the perplexed question.

I posted you a reply. I think we're on the same wavelength, I just phrased the comment poorly.

[xbl0x180]

Me too, but I came out of it with a totally different perspective in life (i.e., if I made it alive out of a civil war, I wouldn't blame the hundreds of thousands of *innocent citizens* for having died in it). Here's a more common statement for what you've been stating here: blame the victim of the crime. If a person were to be mugged, raped, beaten and bullied, etc., then it's their own fault because hey, whether through ability or just pure dumb luck, you've made it through hard times. Hence, what you say reads as grossly naive to me or.... perhaps, you are trying to say something else?

Yes, that people should take care of themselves, and not wait for the government to fix their problems, when it was the cause of their problems to begin with. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough.

Then what is the point of having a government at all, if people should take care of themselves? People take care of themselves in Mexico and Haiti, so is this what you idealise this nation to become? What's the point of having rule of law when people should take care of themselves? Why have soldiers, a police force, firefighters, laws, codes, regulations, and ordinances at all? The problem is not the idea government protecting the general interests of the population itself, but corruption between the government and the rich corporations/people who buy influence in their favour, specifically when this influence runs contrary to the general welfare and safety of everyone.

The wealthy and powerful are the biggest and strongest union, they've always had the best affirmative action, they've been at the top of the welfare line all this time, their financial losses were socialised, they've occupied this whole country and f****d people over for decades, and didn't incur any losses in the many foreign invasions throughout the past two centuries. How is anyone able to do anything for themselves when all the tools to do so have been pretty much taken away? 1) Education is not cheap, 2) there are no jobs that promote production and innovation, and 3) the few service jobs out there pay peanuts

[Specineff]

Dude, please don't polarize or present extremes. By "taking care of themselves" I mean that people shouldn't just sit there and expect that Uncle Sam is going to one day say "You know, these folks are right. I'm a terrible jerk." and turn things around magically. Not when we have the ability and means to get back on our feet. Not when I have experience, abilities, knowledge and even self-developed skills and an instinct to survive.

I could have spent months feeling sorry for myself when all my papers were withheld by that person, for no reason. And even if the whole world came to pat me in the back and empathize with me, it was up to me to start taking action, for myself. Because no one else was going to come and do it. When you fall, do you stay there forever complaining about how hard the ground felt on impact, or about how wrong it was for someone to put the rock you stumbled on... or instead get up, shake off the dust, and continue walking?

It's been established the government/banks/fatcats/Wizard of Oz are incompetent, stupid and greedy enough to let something like this situation reach its state. Totally agreed. To expect that they will fix it (despite they should, and I agree to that as well), reminds me of a saying by an old Jedi: ""Who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?"

But if people want to do or believe that, fine. It's their choice. Just as it is my choice to find and make my way around, above, or through the current situation with the knowledge I have of who NOT to trust to do things the right way.

[xbl0x180]

Dude, please don't polarize or present extremes. By "taking care of themselves" I mean that people shouldn't just sit there and expect that Uncle Sam is going to one day say "You know, these folks are right. I'm a terrible jerk." and turn things around magically. Not when we have the ability and means to get back on our feet. Not when I have experience, abilities, knowledge and even self-developed skills and an instinct to survive.

I could have spent months feeling sorry for myself when all my papers were withheld by that person, for no reason. And even if the whole world came to pat me in the back and empathize with me, it was up to me to start taking action, for myself. Because no one else was going to come and do it. When you fall, do you stay there forever complaining about how hard the ground felt on impact, or about how wrong it was for someone to put the rock you stumbled on... or instead get up, shake off the dust, and continue walking?

It's been established the government/banks/fatcats/Wizard of Oz are incompetent, stupid and greedy enough to let something like this situation reach its state. Totally agreed. To expect that they will fix it (despite they should, and I agree to that as well), reminds me of a saying by an old Jedi: ""Who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?"

But if people want to do or believe that, fine. It's their choice. Just as it is my choice to find and make my way around, above, or through the current situation with the knowledge I have of who NOT to trust to do things the right way.

That's the thing. The example I stated is not a "polar extreme." Mexico is exactly as you stated: people doing it for themselves because they cannot rely on their government for anything. So, in essence, this is what you just described. If people were to suddenly take on your idea, we would immediately become Mexico

[Specineff]

Doubt it. Taking care of one self doesn't mean going rampant. For example, if I know that the government couldn't care less about me having a safe retirement, I am going to make sure I get that retirement going and going safe. Other people get taxed less than I am? Well, I can complain about it, wait/hope it changes, or beat the tax game myself.

And just because other people are doing whatever the hell they want to "take care of things" (whichever way they interpret it), doesn't mean I should. Can't have freedom without some responsibility, can we?

Heh. Last time I visited, Mexico is still a place where a lot of people expect the government to take care of everything.

[moozooh]

It's the same story here in SoCal. Their pay doesn't allow them to buy any homes. I recall a saying that one shouldn't pay more than 3 times their yearly income for a house, but houses here cost at least 6 times the yearly income (ex: average income is 50K/year and houses are more than 300K). People in SoCal are nothing more than indentured servants 8)

Something of an eye-opening fact: you guys actually have it really easy compared to hundreds of millions of people.

Case in point: average wage here in Moscow is below 500 euro per month, and the price of an average apartment (two medium-sized rooms, a bathroom, and a kitchen) within the city limits is upwards of 100k euro, something you won't pay off in 15 years even by dedicating your efforts to it entirely. Also, considering that life isn't cheap by any account here, of those average 500 euro you'll be spending all 500 just to sustain yourself if you don't have to pay the rent—because the average rent alone is around 500 euro per month here. Proper nutrition in form of home-cooked food for one person is half that sum, proper communication and public transportation (again, for one) are 70–100 euro in total, and then there are hygienic needs, medicine, clothes, home appliances, power/water bills, and so on—things you can't ignore, yet those that still consume upwards of 200 euro/month easily. If you're renting, making 1k euro a month is the absolute minimum for comfortable life in solitude, but even that won't be enough to buy your own apartment over time. Humble guys like teachers and factory workers are thus completely fucked.

The situation is similar in the rest of the country as well, just with prices and wages reduced roughly by 1/3 each. If you didn't get your apartment from the government back when you had the chance, and if you don't have an executive position or your own business altogether, don't dream of purchasing real estate.

[xbl0x180]

It's the same story here in SoCal. Their pay doesn't allow them to buy any homes. I recall a saying that one shouldn't pay more than 3 times their yearly income for a house, but houses here cost at least 6 times the yearly income (ex: average income is 50K/year and houses are more than 300K). People in SoCal are nothing more than indentured servants

Something of an eye-opening fact: you guys actually have it really easy compared to hundreds of millions of people.

Case in point: average wage here in Moscow is below 500 euro per month, and the price of an average apartment (two medium-sized rooms, a bathroom, and a kitchen) within the city limits is upwards of 100k euro, something you won't pay off in 15 years even by dedicating your efforts to it entirely. Also, considering that life isn't cheap by any account here, of those average 500 euro you'll be spending all 500 just to sustain yourself if you don't have to pay the rent—because the average rent alone is around 500 euro per month here. Proper nutrition in form of home-cooked food for one person is half that sum, proper communication and public transportation (again, for one) are 70–100 euro in total, and then there are hygienic needs, medicine, clothes, home appliances, power/water bills, and so on—things you can't ignore, yet those that still consume upwards of 200 euro/month easily. If you're renting, making 1k euro a month is the absolute minimum for comfortable life in solitude, but even that won't be enough to buy your own apartment over time. Humble guys like teachers and factory workers are thus completely fucked.

The situation is similar in the rest of the country as well, just with prices and wages reduced roughly by 1/3 each. If you didn't get your apartment from the government back when you had the chance, and if you don't have an executive position or your own business altogether, don't dream of purchasing real estate.

Yes, we know we have it better/easier than most of the rest of the world, which is why it should be alarming that we're heading on a downward spiral back to those conditions because of our government's corruption and financial mismanagement.

[xbl0x180]

Doubt it. Taking care of one self doesn't mean going rampant. For example, if I know that the government couldn't care less about me having a safe retirement, I am going to make sure I get that retirement going and going safe. Other people get taxed less than I am? Well, I can complain about it, wait/hope it changes, or beat the tax game myself.

And just because other people are doing whatever the hell they want to "take care of things" (whichever way they interpret it), doesn't mean I should. Can't have freedom without some responsibility, can we?

Heh. Last time I visited, Mexico is still a place where a lot of people expect the government to take care of everything.

There is a difference in "expecting" and "doing it." People in Mexico can expect all they want, but ultimately they do most of it themselves. They can't even rely on their police force to protect them against the same guys the government trained and armed as an "elite force" "Taking care of oneself," the way you have been describing, is basically letting people handle everything. If a family's house burns down: take care of oneself. If a family's house gets robbed: take care of oneself. If a person in the family becomes ill: take care of oneself. If the automobile breaks down due to manufacturer error: take care of oneself. Education becomes unaffordable: take care of oneself. People lose their jobs because the company shipped all the work to slaves in Southeast Asia: take care of oneself. Lose your retirement/life savings due to financial mismanagement by rich/bailed-out bankers: take care of oneself.

See? It doesn't make any sense. It sounds so naive, except in a world where people don't have any responsibilities to anyone else other than themselves. S***, if that were the case, then we'd still be living in the dark ages. I couldn't imagine a world where the likes of Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Cesar Chavez would say, "Take care of oneself"

[djvinc]

I'm not saying I don't care. I'm saying that if I was able to get back on my feet after all that crap, anyone can.

My opinion : everyone can get out of his problems when they are individual problems. Collective problems are much harder to solve because lots of people tend not to feel concerned by them.
That's why when everyone is in trouble (war aftermath etc.), people do react quite well, rebuild things together, etc.

[Specineff]

Doubt it. Taking care of one self doesn't mean going rampant. For example, if I know that the government couldn't care less about me having a safe retirement, I am going to make sure I get that retirement going and going safe. Other people get taxed less than I am? Well, I can complain about it, wait/hope it changes, or beat the tax game myself.

And just because other people are doing whatever the hell they want to "take care of things" (whichever way they interpret it), doesn't mean I should. Can't have freedom without some responsibility, can we?

Heh. Last time I visited, Mexico is still a place where a lot of people expect the government to take care of everything.

There is a difference in "expecting" and "doing it." People in Mexico can expect all they want, but ultimately they do most of it themselves. They can't even rely on their police force to protect them against the same guys the government trained and armed as an "elite force" "Taking care of oneself," the way you have been describing, is basically letting people handle everything. If a family's house burns down: take care of oneself. If a family's house gets robbed: take care of oneself. If a person in the family becomes ill: take care of oneself. If the automobile breaks down due to manufacturer error: take care of oneself. Education becomes unaffordable: take care of oneself. People lose their jobs because the company shipped all the work to slaves in Southeast Asia: take care of oneself. Lose your retirement/life savings due to financial mismanagement by rich/bailed-out bankers: take care of oneself.

See? It doesn't make any sense. It sounds so naive, except in a world where people don't have any responsibilities to anyone else other than themselves. S***, if that were the case, then we'd still be living in the dark ages. I couldn't imagine a world where the likes of Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Cesar Chavez would say, "Take care of oneself"

And now you're putting words in my mouth. (Bordering on trolling even, because you are not enforcing your points, just trying to ridicule mine.) Did you miss the parts where I stated that it would be stupid to hope that the causant of the problems you described fixes them?

And to quickly answer your questions, yes (Not going to play the "extremes" game. ) No one else is going to come and make your home safe. The hospital is not going to come treat you or your relative in your home. Unaffordable education? Look somewhere else (I didn't pay anyone to teach me how to fix a computer or put it together, and now people pay me to do it for them). See financial mismanagement happening? Get. Your. Assets. Out. Of. There. FAST, and deprive them of the priviledge of working with your money. (Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.) Got a problem with outsourcing? Don't do business with those companies as much as possible. (I stick with Gateway due to them doing all their tech support here in the USA).

It's not like we are living in a society where you have to walk a mile to go get water while fending off wild animals. (And even so, I know the tale of a man that who built a water pump by reverse-engineering a motor, from the illustrations of a repair book written in a language he didn't know, just so he and his wife didn't have to go walking down a mile to get water while fending off wild animals, in Africa. Just need to find the link. In the meanwhile, have some Srinivasa Ramanujan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan)

Ghandi encouraged India to boycott all british products. (IE taking action that directly affected the causant beyond simple public shame). MLK proposed boycotts against the bus system, went to jail for his beliefs, gathered support and was ready and willing to be the face (and martyr) of his cause (CIA was monitoring all his phone calls, and he put up with it. Has anyone from these Occupy guys dared to do one tenth of what MLK did?).

Cesar Chavez formed the National Farm Workers association and organized the farm workers by demonstrating how much of an impact they all had in the system, by choking that broken system (through action) and getting them to pay what the work of those people was worth. Not because of what the rich were doing with their profits. Not because they were getting taxed less. It was the work they were doing and what directly affected them. And he got them to bend over backwards, dress up in a frilly dress, and sing "I'm a little teapot" when he told them so, through action. (And before you ask me how that is different from the current sitation, I'll ask you what kind of dues are owed to you, me, those Occupy protesters or any random member of the forum by Wall Street, the banks, Lehman brothers, or what have you, as evil and despicable as they are?) Oooh, and get this. His family had his land and home taken away unjustly by the very bank that had agreed to help them. Empty-handed, they moved to California to work the motherfunking fields. A referenced and confirmed (oh snap) quote from Wikipedia: "The Chávez family faced many hardships in California. The family would pick peas and lettuce in the winter, cherries and beans in the spring, corn and grapes in the summer, and cotton in the fall. When César was a teenager, he and his older sister Rita would help other farm workers and neighbors by driving those unable to drive to the hospital to see a doctor."
Motherfunker knew what work was. Not simply sitting there and hoping that someone would make things change because of his beautiful face, and charming personality. (Does that remind you of a certain group?). And he dropped out of school to make sure his mom didn't have to work to support them all. I'm sure that some (SOME) of those Occupy protesters had a home and a bed to go back to anytime they wanted... when they weren't skipping class. I wonder what would have happened if Cesar had simply sat down and complained about that bank that took his home in the past and reduced him to (OH, THE HORROR!) having to work picking fruit instead of sitting in a comfortable classroom. It was unfair. It was wrong. But he manned-up, and found a way through it. He. Took. Care. Of. Himself. (And others while at it)

Does any of this sound like "Taking care of things instead of waiting that the causants of your problems do it"?

All of them were beyond simple "Waaah, look at what Wall Street did to us, waaaah!" and camping, or extending their hands and expecting someone gave them their dues. Do you see the Occupy movement at least gathering signatures to change the laws that allow the fsckwittery that supposedly affected them so much? Do you see them filling esplanades with people in front of the Washington movement? Are they encouraging people to vote the right candidates in (heck, even "None of the above" would be enough to effect a change), or at least do something? Is there even a plan of action similar to what King, Chavez and Ghandi had, if they are so worthy of being compared to those three men?

I myself complained, got upset, angry and justly enraged for what happened to me, being reduced to the position of an undocumented alien when that situation happened to me. But it wasn't until I *DID* something, and got out of the hole myself (instead of complaining about how deep it was, and the evil of the person who dug it), that things changed. I myself am all the proof I need, that action is what changes things.

But fine... let's say none of what I say makes sense and is naive. Because we all know that simple wishful thinking, bitching, moaning, and sitting down pointing fingers is what has gotten so many wrongs righted by the causants of those very same wrongs. Especially in the cases of Ghandi, King and Chavez.

Right?

TL; DR: Yes, darling. Believe it or not, you are responsible for yourself. Because no one else is going to come and hand you a patch of happiness with your name on it.

[DragonInstall]

You are responsible for yourself. Because no one else is going to come and hand you a patch of happiness with your name on it.

Words of wisdom.

My dad always told me that when I was growing up.

I guess I'm not really contributing much to this conversation. I do feel sorry for those occupy people, but I think what they're doing is ultimately pointless and a waste of their time. Plenty of people are working hard even in tough times, and are making it.

[xbl0x180]

TL; DR: Yes, darling. Believe it or not, you are responsible for yourself. Because no one else is going to come and hand you a patch of happiness with your name on it.

Hey, kid, did you notice how I wasn't the only member here who read your comments differently than however you wanted to phrase them? By the way, I'm not talking about "happiness" at all. I don't give a damn if everyone's "happy" or not. I do like the idea that social justice still exists here and I do agree with you that the bulk of wall st. occupiers may be going about it completely wrong to effect a change. It doesn't alter the fact wall st. and their friends in govt. are f****** everyone else over - and there should be a push to change that. "Take care of oneself" just don't cut it in this instance. Hell, I think a lot of us here have taken care of ourselves quite well... but the whole country is still f*****

[greg]

It doesn't matter how many times you insert those stupid sunglass smileys into your posts. Spec totally pwned you and turned your examples of MLK, Ghandi, and Chavez against you. None of those guys just sat around with a cardboard sign and whined about how they were shat upon by big mean people. These guys did something. They exemplified leadership and took action. Those Occupy Wall Street losers are just protesting. Protesting doesn't do anything. Taking action does. None of these in the occupy crowd will be remembered. Saying that the reason why we're in this economic downturn is because of rich people/Wall Street/the banks... that's such a simplistic and naive assertion that it's not even worth arguing with them.

This year we lost our house and had to file for bankruptcy. Wah. We retreated, regrouped, explored our options, and taking life down a new tangent. It sucks when crap happens, but we just had to rethink our life and make serious adjustments. I think we are now better off than we were a year ago.

[Specineff]

TL; DR: Yes, darling. Believe it or not, you are responsible for yourself. Because no one else is going to come and hand you a patch of happiness with your name on it.

Hey, kid, did you notice how I wasn't the only member here who read your comments differently than however you wanted to phrase them? By the way, I'm not talking about "happiness" at all. I don't give a damn if everyone's "happy" or not. I do like the idea that social justice still exists here and I do agree with you that the bulk of wall st. occupiers may be going about it completely wrong to effect a change. It doesn't alter the fact wall st. and their friends in govt. are f****** everyone else over - and there should be a push to change that. "Take care of oneself" just don't cut it in this instance. Hell, I think a lot of us here have taken care of ourselves quite well... but the whole country is still f*****

Social justice exists. But it's something that has to be *MADE* happen. The push to change that happens when you strangle the system from the resources it was sucking from you. Through action. Not by telling it just how wrong it is in doing so.

Very well. Taking care of things oneself (or taking care of oneself) doesn't cut it. Since my points are so wrong and irritate so much, what is the solution? Just protesting and sitting there? Whining? (Really tempted to post a .GIF of Rarity whining, but I don't want the mods to think I'm trying to be a facetious image troll)

Also, the "Darling" bit wasn't directed at you. It was rhetorical, so change it to "Everyone" "himself/herself", "his", "her" and "their". Is that better?

I agree the country could possibly go to hell all right. What can I do about it? Sit there and watch it happen, or at least take action to protect myself, loved ones and maybe others from that "collapse".

[ED-057]

Those Occupy Wall Street losers are just protesting. Protesting doesn't do anything. Taking action does. None of these in the occupy crowd will be remembered. Saying that the reason why we're in this economic downturn is because of rich people/Wall Street/the banks... that's such a simplistic and naive assertion that it's not even worth arguing with them.

This year we lost our house and had to file for bankruptcy. Wah. We retreated, regrouped, explored our options, and taking life down a new tangent. It sucks when crap happens, but we just had to rethink our life and make serious adjustments. I think we are now better off than we were a year ago.

If your point is that people who let themselves be sold shitty deals by banks are not helping themselves by protesting about it after the fact, then I agree with you. No matter how many regulations there are, there will always be some people that have financial problems because they simply don`t have the skills to manage their own finances.

But this is not why protests are happening. It`s been a few years already since the bubble burst. The reason people are protesting is not just because the market price of their home dropped. The problem is CORRUPTION. When a certain class is able to play fast and loose with the law and get away with it, and gets special treatment from the gov, people get upset. And they have the right (constitutionally guaranteed, as if that means anything anymore) to make a stink about it.

I agree the country could possibly go to hell all right. What can I do about it? Sit there and watch it happen, or at least take action to protect myself, loved ones and maybe others from that "collapse".

So as long as you personally are in good shape, you don`t give a crap about the rest of the country and will mock anyone who tries to raise the alarm about said descent toward hell?