Appreciation of 8ing/Raizing

[Estebang]

Is there a better method of emulating Brave Blade than MAME? It stutters like crazy on my modestly powerful (it can handle blu-rays) laptop.

[BPzeBanshee]

Wasn't there a fork of MAME that handled the PSX-based hardware games a lot better than standard MAME? Maybe that might run Brave Blade better.

[Bee Cool]

The National seem to appreciate Armed Police Batrider, as you can hear in their song Walk Off

[Hagane]

Good games reward taking risks. I can't think of a higher risk than sacrificing lives for score.

Batrider is my favourite shooter ever, even though I still have a long way to go to become good at it. So complex, so many options, so fucking fun. Overall I love Raizing shooters, except for Soukyugurentai and maybe Bakraid.

[Special World]

Why do people dislike Bakraid in comparison to Batrider and Garegga? Seems to me like the "trilogy" got better with each game, yet the shmups! poll says the exact opposite.

[Vamos]

Why do people dislike Bakraid in comparison to Batrider and Garegga? Seems to me like the "trilogy" got better with each game, yet the shmups! poll says the exact opposite.

Bakraid deostn look as nice as garegga or batrider and DAT scoring system.

[Randorama]

Hi Wenchang, can you please confirm the following questions, then?

Yuichi Toyama is the programmer who was responsible for the Mahou Daiskusen series and Soukyugurentai in the same way you would say Yagawa was responsible for Garegga, Batrider, and Bakraid. Brave Blade was mostly the work of a bunch of younger people. It's not really in the same category.

Did any of the Brave Blade Staff move to Milestone, by chance?

Toyama worked for Namco Bandai at one point but he was never with Milestone. It's also worth nothing that Kazuyuki Nakashima from Compile actually worked on Battle Garegga and some of the Mahou Daisakusen games.

Ok, can you confirm that Nakashima is *not* at Milestone? I am pretty sure that I misread the credit lists of Chaos Field, as I read his name and Toyama's, too.

And I don't believe Milestone really had any of the major Compile people who made them great like Moo Niitani, Jemini Horono, and Janus Teramoto or the above mentioned Raizing people. And aside from Toyama and Yagawa, most of the programmers + Nakashima stayed on with Eighting and actually worked on Bloody Roar games. The old Toaplan guys who worked on Bakraid and Dimahoo left the industry as far as I know.

I know that one musician from Toaplan (can't recall his name, the Tatsujin guy) worked on both the two titles you mention. Do you know if now he has moved to Capcom as a producer?

[Special World]

Why do people dislike Bakraid in comparison to Batrider and Garegga? Seems to me like the "trilogy" got better with each game, yet the shmups! poll says the exact opposite.

Bakraid deostn look as nice as garegga or batrider and DAT scoring system.

I think it looks just as nice. What's wrong with the scoring system? Do people not like the chaining? I'll be honest, I don't know too much about them, in depth. Bakraid just seems the most immediately playable and fun to me.

[null1024]

Is there a better method of emulating Brave Blade than MAME? It stutters like crazy on my modestly powerful (it can handle blu-rays) laptop.

Try either using MAME 0.128 [IIRC], or go find a copy of ZiNc, that ZN emulator.

[Deca]

Why do people dislike Bakraid in comparison to Batrider and Garegga? Seems to me like the "trilogy" got better with each game, yet the shmups! poll says the exact opposite.

It has a completely different style to it and doesn't do near as good a job aesthetically/artistically. Garegga is extremely engrossing and all elements of it fit together perfectly to create something I would call legitimately artistic. Batrider has a very solid feel to it with an extremely consistent and prominent aesthetic as well but doesn't pull it off quite as well as Garegga (however I'd say it's a better game from an objective gameplay standpoint). Bakraid doesn't have this quality to it at all, it seems extremely out of place and has as close to a generic feel as you're going to find in any Raizing game. Coming off of Garegga and Batrider I remember being downright confused initially, playing what I expected to be a sequel to Garegga.

Bakraid is a fun game, but it's just so far removed from BG and APB. Visual and musical styles are completely different and the scoring bears very little similarity to the others. I enjoy and respect the game, but just cannot put it on the same level as its predecessors.

[Special World]

It seemed like there was Garegga, then there was

APB, which was like Garegga with more visible bullets, a charge shot, and crazy-assed character variety, and then there was

Bakraid, which kept the colored bullets, charge shot, and medalling but added in a chaining system for extra scoring potential. I never got the impression that Bakraid was missing anything.

I'll spend some more serious time with all of them. They're extremely difficult for me to get into for scoring because of all the hidden knowledge required, but I find them really satisfying on a more basic level.

[Paradigm]

It's the scoring system.

[Special World]

Okay, but what's missing? If it's something that can't be explained in a nutshell then okay, but it seemed to me that the heart of Garegga/Batrider scoring was the medalling, which is still present in Bakraid. Is it just that the chaining system in Bakraid overpowers/destabilizes the medalling or what?

[Vamos]

Basically medalling matters nil in bakraid when you start doing full level bomb/ suicide chains . Batrider has the most optimizable and free scoring system ever theres bombing medalling milking part/scenary destruction using the aura etcetc . Garegga has medalling milking and a set of important to do and often hard to do boss tricks that add up to a few millions worth .

[MrChiggins]

The National seem to appreciate Armed Police Batrider, as you can hear in their song Walk Off

hahahahaha I haven't heard this song yet. I gotta listen to it on repeat next time I play Batrider.

Anyways I'm alternating between Souky and Batrider at the moment. Heaven. Batrider has fantastic atmosphere and somehow manages to feel peculiar, enthusiastic, and original within the achingly crowded 'NEAR FUTURE WITH TANKS AND STUFF' aesthetic. As for Souky's web... I wanna wrap myself up in it.

Couldn't get into scoring in Bakraid, and Garegga is like this massive standoffish wall of brown and grey. I'll try to scale it sometime but goddamn.

[Deca]

Okay, but what's missing?

Atmosphere, aesthetic. The way the art style and soundtrack and mechanical design all come together in Garegga is absolutely unmatched in the genre. Bakraid feels slipshod in comparison. Stage design and mechanics are still nailed down but the artistic design is just forgettable compared to earlier games. It's not something that's incredibly easy to quantify or explain, but Garegga has a very specific feel to it as you're playing. Batrider has it's own feel as well, though it isn't quite as penetrating. This may be due to all the self referencing and general dream-match type design theory at play, which is awesome in its own way. Bakraid just...doesn't have any of this.

I will reiterate that I feel Bakraid is a totally fine game and I do enjoy playing it. Don't want to seem like I'm coming down on it, just trying to explain why it isn't held in the same regard as BG and APB.

[Estebang]

Is there a better method of emulating Brave Blade than MAME? It stutters like crazy on my modestly powerful (it can handle blu-rays) laptop.

Try either using MAME 0.128 [IIRC], or go find a copy of ZiNc, that ZN emulator.

The game runs and looks much better in ZiNc, but there's no music. Is that just the way it is?

[Vamos]

Id like to get brave blade working good to that game is alot of fun just seems poorly emulated atm , on shmupmame after a whilst an annoying sound gets stuck in a loop in the background until you reset.

[MrChiggins]

Okay, but what's missing?

Atmosphere, aesthetic. The way the art style and soundtrack and mechanical design all come together in Garegga is absolutely unmatched in the genre. Bakraid feels slipshod in comparison. Stage design and mechanics are still nailed down but the artistic design is just forgettable compared to earlier games. It's not something that's incredibly easy to quantify or explain, but Garegga has a very specific feel to it as you're playing. Batrider has it's own feel as well, though it isn't quite as penetrating. This may be due to all the self referencing and general dream-match type design theory at play, which is awesome in its own way. Bakraid just...doesn't have any of this.

I will reiterate that I feel Bakraid is a totally fine game and I do enjoy playing it. Don't want to seem like I'm coming down on it, just trying to explain why it isn't held in the same regard as BG and APB.

Agreed agreed agreed. Something felt slightly off about Bakraid... like it all didn't come together quite as well as BG or APB.
BG is like an evil dictator and APB is like a goofy cult leader. They both simultaneously want you to lose but beg you to join their side. So naturally BG is granted a mysterious white-knuckle intensity that is pretty much unmatched... while APB is granted a quirkier 'STEP INTO MY HOUSE OF MIRRORS' vibe that is pretty much unmatched as well; the mysteriousness of each obviously granted by the rank systems and plethoras of secrets.

[z0mbie90]

The game runs and looks much better in ZiNc, but there's no music. Is that just the way it is?

Strange, I was curious about the game and wanted to try but I just got sound but no image

[null1024]

I haven't gotten sound in ZiNc, so I dunno what to say.

@z0mbie90
Do you have a renderer plugin?

[Estebang]

I've tried a bunch of other 3D games in ZiNc.

- Strider 2 has a few glitched sprites but it's perfect otherwise
- Fighting Layer is perfect aside from screwed up music
- Rival Schools seems to run at 3/4 speed
- G-Darius is perfect besides lacking music

So I think I can conclude that the emulation accuracy of the games greatly varies. At least Brave Blade runs at full speed without stuttering. And yeah, it seems you need some plugins. The other frontend I tried said I didn't have the right ones. Doesn't seem to be any way to rebind keys or run it in fullscreen, either.

[Randorama]

\ It's not something that's incredibly easy to quantify or explain, but Garegga has a very specific feel to it as you're playing. \

Well, I'll try.

Battle Garegga has a simple, industrial/steampunk design. It borrows, heavily, from Laputa and Nausicaa in vehicle design. So, every vehicle looks like an art-deco/Jules Verne-esque craft. It uses one gazillion shades of...four colours? And includes a lot of small details, such as debris for each single thing that explodes. Design is extremely minimalist.

The OST also borrows, heavily, from the early Detroit techno scene, which was a danceable version of Philip Glass' early works (pure minimalism). It is designed to match the fast tempo of the game, stage by stage.

And then there is the game mechanics. The game is actually very simple: everything you do affects the rank, so the game requires a lot of planning of small actions. One of the consequences of these plans is that certain bigger plans become available ('emerge', to use trendy vocabulary) once all the small plans are combined together. Given that the game allows an enormous flexibility in how one implements the small plans (a lot of actions are "commutative', order of execution is NOT rigid), the bigger plans can be pretty flexible as well. So, the mechanics can be said to be quite minimalist as well.

Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.

DrTrouserPlank plays Cave, as a form of karmic justice.

[chempop]

Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.

DrTrouserPlank plays Cave, as a form of karmic justice.

Muhahahah someone should sig that!

I agree with you guys [Deca and Randorama] in regards to BG vs BB. I actually used to prefer BB, mainly because I was able to clear Normal loop and enjoy the game more casually, meanwhile I was hopeless at Garegga. Only once I was able to really learn Garegga did I start seeing what made it so damn great, I still can't clear it, but it's become one of my all time favorites. The hype it gets is justified. And those bosses!

[Special World]

I can't medal for dick in Garegga

Also the first stage theme totally reminds me of the Eschatos OST, and vice versa.

[Vamos]

I can't medal for dick in Garegga

What are you having trouble with? main thing in garegga is being conscious of where yo are shooting as thats where the next medal will come from so for example if you are waving left to right loads you increase the chances of missing a medal or putting yourself in a tricky situation.

[Deca]

The heavy detroit techno influence in Garegga is one reason I personally love the game as much as I do, the soundtrack is absolutely phenomenal. I wasn't surprised at all to read that Namiki was heavily influenced by Underground Resistance, Carl Craig, and some of the other big pioneers in the genre. What did surprise me was finding out that Yagawa was as well during the production of the game. I think the musical influence really permeates the game and gives the whole experience a feel similar to what you'd get just listening to detroit techno.

[Special World]

I can't medal for dick in Garegga

What are you having trouble with? main thing in garegga is being conscious of where yo are shooting as thats where the next medal will come from so for example if you are waving left to right loads you increase the chances of missing a medal or putting yourself in a tricky situation.

That's exactly what it is. I'm dodging all over and then I'm too far away to rush for the medal. I'll have to work on it.

[Vamos]

The heavy detroit techno influence in Garegga is one reason I personally love the game as much as I do

Agreed me to as a massive fan of jeff mills kev saunderson UR and old skool rave music from 88-94 the first time i played and stage 2 started was mindblowing , knew i was gonna love the game after that.

[chum]

The soundtrack to Mahou Daisakusen is every bit as good as Garegga's in my opinion, and it is also visually and conceptually rather amazing (I love how the mechanic elements take over more and more as you advance.)

Everything about Garegga is just frightening. The bosses are downright scary while that menacing music plays. Certainly the soundtrack plays a huge role (Stage 5 contains my favorite sounds.)

But looking past sounds, there's just this tremendous attention to detail that I don't find in other shmups. Bakraid unfortunately doesn't really have that (or anything artistically noteworthy, really. Although it is a fun game.)