Protect IP - Internet end times?

[Skykid]

What the fuck is this shit already? Congress in the US is planning to pass legislation to censor the internet?

I suppose it was bound to happen at some point, but this feels wrong on so many levels.

This vid has all the info:

http://vimeo.com/31100268

[Estebang]

Bills like this come up in America on a practically monthly basis and are always shot down. This will be no exception, no matter how much the alarmists hype it up.

Unless I haven't read enough about this one, and it actually is close to being passed? Doubtful.

EDIT: Oh, this is just the same bill that scared the hell out of the game streaming/longplays community a few months ago. Still hasn't gotten anywhere.

[Skykid]

Bills like this come up in America on a practically monthly basis and are always shot down. This will be no exception, no matter how much the alarmists hype it up.

Unless I haven't read enough about this one, and it actually is close to being passed? Doubtful.

Dunno, just got sent an email with a brief synopsis and this video. Apparently a bill nearly went through last year but failed at the last hurdle, so they rewrote it as Protect IP, which has even broader ramifications of censorship.

But this is the first I've heard of it too.

[Ex-Cyber]

It's reportedly dead for the moment. Even so, expect it to rise again next year, perhaps with yet another name and a few minor tweaks to the text. The MPAA/RIAA/USCC lobbyists pushing this aren't just going to give up and go home. They don't care that this breaks DNSSEC or that it would almost certainly resurrect major interest in deploying alternative DNS roots.

[Skykid]

It's reportedly dead for the moment. Even so, expect it to rise again next year, perhaps with yet another name and a few minor tweaks to the text. The MPAA/RIAA/USCC lobbyists pushing this aren't just going to give up and go home. They don't care that this breaks DNSSEC or that it would almost certainly resurrect major interest in deploying alternative DNS roots.

Oh right, so it's officially failed then? All the news reports on google made it sound current, apologies for that.

What's DNSSEC?

I always thought Internet censoring was a distant idea, I didn't realise there were camps in the west pushing for it so vehemently.

[dcharlie]

Needs an insane bullshit twist for the US to buy into it.

It'll come back as something like "China is making billions from illegal downloads and using it to make weapons with which to secretly plan to attack America and become the leading super power, we must STOP THEM!" Or at least -heavily implied-

Much more concerned about the US giving itself the right to arrest anyone anywhere on the planet whenever it feels like it without trial or charge. That's bullshi.... <deadconnection>

[Skykid]

Much more concerned about the US giving itself the right to arrest anyone anywhere on the planet whenever it feels like it without trial or charge. That's bullshi.... <deadconnection>

Lol

I didn't read that, is that part of the same bill?

I read that it censors foreign sites that hold any form of infringing copyright material and blocks the IP. It also places responsibility on search engines and web service providers to block IP's from their networks, and on Youtube/Facebook etc to remove anything relating to copyright infringement.

Sounds like quite a job.

[dcharlie]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/2 ... 19473.html

That's the scary thing - people are too busy getting seemingly always fed two or three items to clog up their brains/attention and almost every time that's happening the powers that be are busying readying something major that they can fuck people up with

in this case, this gem !

Short version : Define the whole of America as "a Battlefield" so the military can arrest _anyone at all_ without trial or without a crime commited.

[Skykid]

Sounds like old-school Russian communism.

Seriously though, that's fucked up. I thought the Patriot Act already offered some form of surveillance/interrogation under the assumption you're involved with terrorists, so I suppose incarceration at Guantanamo is the next logical step.

Next thing you know they'll be trying to censor the internet!

[Ex-Cyber]

Oh right, so it's officially failed then? All the news reports on google made it sound current, apologies for that.

No, I should apologize, because I got the SOPA and PROTECT IP news mixed up. SOPA is stalled (not dead, but not in a state where it will be passed). PROTECT IP is on track in its corresponding Senate committee.

What's DNSSEC?

It's basically an anti-spoofing framework for DNS - everything's cryptographically signed so that you can be sure that a DNS server is giving you the correct IP address with a chain of trust going back to the actual domain owner (assuming secure keys, of course). These bills basically require the DNS server to either error out (which might just trigger your OS/application to try a fallback method of name resolution) or flat-out lie to you (i.e. the exact thing that DNSSEC is designed to prevent).

I always thought Internet censoring was a distant idea, I didn't realise there were camps in the west pushing for it so vehemently.

It's a logical extension of the DMCA takedown concept, and the RIAA/MPAA/etc. have lobbied for much more intrusive mechanisms like the broadcast flag (which is actually part of the ATSC standard, but the FCC rule mandating it was struck down in court), mandatory watermark detection in digital cameras (e.g. you point your camera at a movie and it says "oops, sorry, I can't record this") , and so on.

[Skykid]

Oh right, so it's officially failed then? All the news reports on google made it sound current, apologies for that.

No, I should apologize, because I got the SOPA and PROTECT IP news mixed up. SOPA is stalled (not dead, but not in a state where it will be passed). PROTECT IP is on track in its corresponding Senate committee.

Anything worth worrying about or is it just another scare as suggested by Estebang?

[Moniker]

I always thought Internet censoring was a distant idea, I didn't realise there were camps in the west pushing for it so vehemently.

It's a logical extension of the DMCA takedown concept, and the RIAA/MPAA/etc. have lobbied for much more intrusive mechanisms like the broadcast flag (which is actually part of the ATSC standard, but the FCC rule mandating it was struck down in court), mandatory watermark detection in digital cameras (e.g. you point your camera at a movie and it says "oops, sorry, I can't record this") , and so on.

Damn.. I tend to be wary of alarmism, but this shit is really not part of the gov't's mandate. Companies, sure, go ahead and DRM your products all you want, but wow.. not a matter for legislation, thanks. Praise to god that the FCC was ruled against in court. Sometimes the judiciary seems to be the most rational governing body in the US. I guess I really will be voting libertarian next year.

[BulletMagnet]

Sometimes the judiciary seems to be the most rational governing body in the US.

That's one of the more unsettling thoughts I've heard of late, but I guess I'll get over it.

[Ex-Cyber]

Anything worth worrying about or is it just another scare as suggested by Estebang?

To the extent that anything is worth worrying about, this is. It's not the end of the world. There are already countermeasures easily deployed by anyone who is even moderately net-savvy, but it also would break a bunch of things and open old sociopolitical wounds related to Internet governance in general and DNS in particular (primarily that a lot of folks don't trust an ICANN subject to US government control).

As for whether it will pass, it's hard to say. It has strong bipartisan support, but Ron Wyden has reportedly pledged to put a "hold" on the bill*, something that he already did to prevent the bill from passing earlier this year. However, he has recently expressed concern that there is enough support for the bill to get through this time.

*: This is not a formal term or procedure. Basically, the Senate normally operates by skipping most of the full/proper procedure, but this requires unanimous consent. If you watch this process you'll often hear a request of the form "Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that <we pretend that we already did some tedious part of the procedure and skip to the good stuff>".

However, it only takes one senator to completely fuck over the schedule by objecting to all of these routine suspensions of the full procedure. A "hold" is a standing threat to do this if a bill is scheduled for a vote. This is not at all foolproof (after all, your colleagues need only be willing to endure tedium in order to defeat it), nor is it the best way to make friends among the party leadership, but it's part of the politician's arsenal of quirky parliamentary tactics.

[Skykid]

Ron sounds pretty switched on. He's threatening to read the names of every single person signing the anti IP Protect petition in an epic filibuster, especially since the names are almost at a million.

He'll be there a while.

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/22/sign-t ... -sopa.html

[gameoverDude]

Thank goodness for Ron Wyden.

We don't need an American "Great Firewall of China" to send us down the red brick road to becoming the United Soviet States of America. Lately I've sometimes wondered if there are a few Communists masquerading among members of the two major parties. The Communist Party of the USA has been banned, but then those with the CP beliefs could theoretically hide out within legitimate parties. Or could the SOPA/PIPA sponsors be Fascists?

Anyway, SOPA & PIPA are totalitarianist. The tools these acts put in place could be used to quash dissent or other forms of free speech. "You dare disagree with us, comrade? Well, Dosvedanya! Your site is blocked!"

[Moniker]

Lately I've sometimes wondered if there are a few Communists masquerading among members of the two major parties. The Communist Party of the USA has been banned, but then those with the CP beliefs could theoretically hide out within legitimate parties.

57! There are no fewer than 57 card-carrying Reds in the United States Congress!



Edit: The CPUSA actually isn't banned. They've had presidential candidates for the past two elections, and frequently prior to that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Communist_Party

[BulletMagnet]

Considering how many corporations are openly supporting this I doubt that Communist vestiges are the culprit here.

[Skykid]

I don't really care what Pirate Bay gets up to (although if someone can enlighten me as to how the site is still running when its founders are in prison I'm really curious to know?) but some of the new stuff cropping up (Tubeplus mainly) is really pushing it. If anyone is going to bring down the bill passing hammer any faster, it has to be a piracy streaming site with such a high profile and new releases (the Twilight studio must be sweating bullets right now.)

[Estebang]

Pirate Bay has their own ISP, Black Internet. There would be countless international legal hurdles to jump before anyone could even think of shutting them down, and even then they'd be thwarted at every turn by the army of anon hackers, who routinely break into "secure" government sites. I'm sure the founders simply passed on leadership duties.

[Skykid]

Pirate Bay has their own ISP, Black Internet.

So is it really that difficult for Entertainment industries to prosecute Black Internet the same way they did the PB founders?

According to this, they suspended PB only to suffer a hacker attack in the past, and did it on the back of the court case verdict - so they're probably not in collusion with PB?

[dcharlie]

Entertainment houses have to fight fire with money-making ideas , shut downs are just going to burn money and they'll never -ever- win.

Torrents and streaming are all fine , but if companies offer a real alternative with a wide range of content available at the touch of a button and with content appropriately priced then they will clean house.

Fuck, Hulu is great as far as i'm concerned - okay, not every episode available right now but a mass of content for a monthly charge that i can pretty much play on every device i would care to play it on.

The way to win is to outperform the pirates at what they do.

[Skykid]

Entertainment houses have to fight fire with money-making ideas , shut downs are just going to burn money and they'll never -ever- win.

Torrents and streaming are all fine , but if companies offer a real alternative with a wide range of content available at the touch of a button and with content appropriately priced then they will clean house.

Fuck, Hulu is great as far as i'm concerned - okay, not every episode available right now but a mass of content for a monthly charge that i can pretty much play on every device i would care to play it on.

The way to win is to outperform the pirates at what they do.

Yeah, I can definitely see how that works. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where that's happened in past similar situations too, although nothing is springing to mind at the minute.

[Barrakketh]

Entertainment houses have to fight fire with money-making ideas , shut downs are just going to burn money and they'll never -ever- win.

Torrents and streaming are all fine , but if companies offer a real alternative with a wide range of content available at the touch of a button and with content appropriately priced then they will clean house.

Fuck, Hulu is great as far as i'm concerned - okay, not every episode available right now but a mass of content for a monthly charge that i can pretty much play on every device i would care to play it on.

The way to win is to outperform the pirates at what they do.

Yeah, I can definitely see how that works. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where that's happened in past similar situations too, although nothing is springing to mind at the minute.

Gabe Newell said that's true of Valve's performance in Russia. Most companies would wait months after its overseas release to make games available there (if they brought the game to Russia at all), and most were either not localized or it was poorly done.

That's one reason why he says the piracy is a service issue - the pirates were making the game available much earlier than the official publishers and did a better job localizing them (when applicable), and the DRM is removed (another example of how heavy-handed DRM only ends up punishing legitimate customers). Valve has saw great success in that market by localizing their games and having a simultaneous worldwide launch.

iTunes could be seen as another example, because the store is easy enough to use and the prices low enough to attract a large customer base even in the face of other avenues of acquiring music illegally.

[Ex-Cyber]

The media companies are basically their own worst enemies. They've built up a system and a legacy that stacks the deck against themselves and in favor of pirates of all stripes. Legal services like Steam, iTunes, Netflix, etc. aren't a bad idea, but they're hamstrung by copyright. As large as their inventories have become, they're still missing major artists/studios/publishers and are absolutely dwarfed by the amount of niche and/or out-of-print material that's out there.

[dcharlie]

to add to this - i worked in the music industry from 1997-2000 and i got to see first hand the industries panicked reaction to Napster and how they just didn't get the sea change that was coming. They STILL don't get it.

worked in copyright and on the artist side of royalty collection - great job, wish i'd never left it some days.

[GaijinPunch]

I think the secret to success is a mixed bag. Basically what dcharlie said about making it EASY to get stuff legitimately (and cheaply). I've looked at some Kindle book prices -- they're not cheap enough. $10 for a fucking digital download of something that's $12 on paperback? No thanks... or maybe I just picked bad examples. I guess there's the chance we hit an a era of bedroom publishing, like we have with bedroom music production (which is generally more creative than the turds coming out of the big production houses).

The 2nd part is added value that can only be had from a purchased product. That's going to be hard when the average customer has absolutely zero patience. I'll admit, there's some vinyls I'm looking into buying, but I don't really want to wait or pay shipping. Some are worth it though. Then again, I consider myself as someone that will spend extra and wait longer for something that I love, and something that deserves to be bought.

[Skykid]

I think the secret to success is a mixed bag. Basically what dcharlie said about making it EASY to get stuff legitimately (and cheaply). I've looked at some Kindle book prices -- they're not cheap enough. $10 for a fucking digital download of something that's $12 on paperback? No thanks... or maybe I just picked bad examples.

No, they are the general Kindle prices for newer stuff.

And then there's a torrent you can get in 5 minutes with 5000 books in it. No wonder they have a battle on their hands.

Their rationale is that piracy forces them to make prices higher in compensation, but it's obvious that it's counter productive in overcoming the problem.

[dcharlie]

Their rationale is that piracy forces them to make prices higher in compensation, but it's obvious that it's counter productive in overcoming the problem.

the whole idea of punishing the legitimate purchaser is something i find absolutely abhorent.

My pet hate is the "YOU WOULDN'T STEAL A CAR!!!" or "DON'T BUY THE PIRATED VERSION, TERRORIST!" unskippable videos on Blurays.
Thanks arseholes, i DIDN'T download this ! I bought it legit! i just want to watch the movie and now i have to sit through you telling me not to do what i didn't do EVERY TIME I WANT TO WATCH + some trailers for movies i don't give a shit about?! Give me my fucking content!!!! Meanwhile at A.Pirates house - they DON'T get to see this!

[Ex-Cyber]

I think what's really going on with overpriced downloads is that the big publishers are afraid of obsoleting traditional retail channels, because that's where most of their entrenched influence lies. If everything goes online, then Amazon, Apple et. al. become the market gatekeepers. Inflated download prices let traditional retail remain competitive.