Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

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O. Van Bruce
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Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

Post by O. Van Bruce »

Why can't they do it for thenselves?

The people of Kihniö, a town on which the political party "True Finnish" won the election, reject the financial rescue on other countries - They represent the increasing popularity of populist parties on Europe

Kihniö, a town of 2200 inhabitants and 300 kilometers from Helsinki is the electoral district in which the eurosceptic party "True Finnish" won the general elections on April. On the whole country, the party got a remarkable 19% of the votes and in this town they got an impressive 53%.

People from the town see the European crisis as a great tsunami that menace to take the social services of their country. Most of then are far from the racist and xenofobic stereotype.

"Its not fair!" say a group of old woman who live in the town. They cannot understand why they have to help Portugal or Greece. Why they must help those who spent more that they had or even worst, tricked everybody. Now, they have to pay for the consequences of their crisis. "I'm afraid that this situation will revert on our social services" says Kirsti, one of the old woman of the group. Let the sickness stay outside so it cannot attack their comunity.

As much people know, Finland has one of the best social services on the world with the best educational system among any other country.

"The state is giving us less resources" explains Petri Liukku, mayor of the town, seated on his tiny office. Finlands GDP fell an 8% on 2009 due to the international crisis. The governement is trying to unite and regroup municipalities to save money, but sometimes that makes services be farther than they used to be.

"on the 90's we had a very harsh crisis, even worst than today's" continue Liukku "On that time we made a big effort and got out of that. So, people now ask thenselves why others can't do the same for thenselves."
Source: "El País" Newspaper Spain. November 30 of 2011, page 6

Translation and adaptation by myself
So I read this article today on the newspaper and, as there are a lot of finnish on this forum and halve of it are from Europe, I was asking myself what do you think about the financial help and all the trash that's happening on Europe...
Last edited by O. Van Bruce on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Randorama »

This article illustrates some of the reasons on why Greece is in trouble.

One key aspect is that Greece came out of the colonels' dictatorship in the '70s without changing the taxation system. The very rich basically don't pay taxes, everyone else does.

A somewhat similar scenario rose in Italy, in the same period. Companies, small and big, were allowed to self-regulate their tax declarations, and as a consequence tax evasion became the norm. It was a political gift from the Christian Democrats to their private supporters, basically.

Public servants and state-controlled companies could not do this, and as a consequence they always paid all the taxes. The constant increase in budget deficit started with this non-sensical choice.

Mafia and organized crime in general also should be added to the equation, as they increased in power from the '70s onwards (in fact, Berlusconi "appeared" as a "businessman" in this period). Compare the problem with public deficit in the US.

My guess is that similar scenarios arose in Spain and Portugal, which had Franco and Salazar for decades. I guess that the rich had similar privileges, and subsequent democratic governments never bothered to rectify the situation.

In the meanwhile, the northern european bloc of countries never had problems with democracy, including citizens and companies who don't pay taxes when they should. As far as I know, Finns and finnish companies enjoy a healthy welfare system because they work hard and pay their taxes, all of them, in increasing measures. They have a way to support the system.

So, the countries that have problems now are those countries that had problems with basic democratic issues before, chiefly amongst them taxation. When the EU was formed, these issues WERE NOT taken in consideration by the founding bodies.

As a result of such myopic attitude, nobody acknowledged that sooner or later the DIFFERENCE in social and economic structures amongst countries would have led to a crisis.

One illustrative example is the following: the current Italian government, led by Mario Monti, is increasing tax revenue and imposing (quite) stronger controls on tax evasion. The goal is to squeeze more money from the ones that did not pay before, to level out things. Whether it will work or not is up to debate.

So, movements like "true finns" may even be right in complaining that their quality of life could even be lightly lowered by "lending" money to the "southerners". This is just xenophobic, headless chook propaganda that exists in each european country: Gert Wildeers in NL, Lega Nord in Italy, etc.

The fact is that Europe needs a COMMON fiscal policy, so that everybody pays taxes and can finance a properly working system, without dirty cheats. After that, integrated social policies would also be necessary, but that's already another topic.

Otherwise, talking about "EU" and the "euro" is non-sense, except for having an easier time to buy Daifukkatsu posters and getting drunk in Pamplona.

Maybe the "true finns", or the horders of bloody xenophobic retards pestering the continent, could support these propositions, eh.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by MJR »

Interesting read.

I definitely did not vote for true finns, but I kinda understand why people vote them; it's the same thing as everywhere else:

People who don't follow politics get frustrated with their politicians promising things and then not delivering them. Or worse, not promising ANYTHING concrete and delivering nothing. Then once in a while comes a new party who promises to deliver exactly what they promise. Problem there is that only way to do that is to dismiss democracy, which is disastrous for anyone who disagrees with them, as should be obvious.

True Finns left themselves out of coalition because they did not want to compromise, and that's why their voters like them. Problem here is that democracy is exactly all about compromises, so that one group of people can't stomp over the others. So in that sense, while True Finns may claim that they are "democratic", their philosophy is exactly opposite. While media likes to display their voters as mostly rural people or uneducated workers who are naive enough to not realize this, the unfortunate fact is that they have been getting votes from all kinds of people who are fed up with usual politics, like with most populist parties. Unfortunately most people are just disinterested in politics just about enough to NOT understand what democracy really means. Hence the votes for populists who promise the easy and clear way out.

EU is the kind of thing that really fuels the fire, and it's very understandable. Most of the important decisions that affect everyday lives are made in somewhere else, and no one has good understanding on why. Mechanics for market economy are getting more and more difficult for ordinary people to understand, so it is obvious that complaints start to arise.

It's a big shit sandwich that has been making itself for a good while now. If economy falls apart now, EU will really be in trouble and in next election True Finns may just swipe all the votes, meaning that democracy in finland will really be in trouble. But not just there, this problem will be pretty much everywhere.

I have no idea how to get out of this, and I don't think anyone else does either.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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Zeron
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Zeron »

Germany will annex everyone and transform the EU to the 4th reich and nullify all of its limitations on army etc because its not the German Federal Republic anymore but European Union hence they are not valid anymore, how clever of them.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by BulletMagnet »

Randorama wrote:The very rich basically don't pay taxes, everyone else does.
You'd figure that someone over there might have taken a glance across the Atlantic sometime over the past 30 years and thought to himself "Hmm, yeah, maybe we shouldn't do that." :P
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Jockel »

Zeron wrote:Germany will annex everyone and transform the EU to the 4th reich and nullify all of its limitations on army etc because its not the German Federal Republic anymore but European Union hence they are not valid anymore, how clever of them.
Pshhh, these plans are still secret!
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Randorama »

BulletMagnet wrote: You'd figure that someone over there might have taken a glance across the Atlantic sometime over the past 30 years and thought to himself "Hmm, yeah, maybe we shouldn't do that." :P
Johnson (Lyndon), the guy that gave the first consistent tax cut to the rich, called by phone the greek president that was in office before the US/UK-controlled dictatorship and told him that he and the CIA was going to teach him what democracy is, i.e. no taxes for the rich, brutal torture and murder for the dissenters, mass inequality, and so on (See killing hope, chapter on greek colonels' dictatorship).

But that's another topic, dear moderator-BM...
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by BryanM »

So last I heard, Goldman Sachs was in full naked control of two countries. What's the number up to now?
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by O. Van Bruce »

So right-winged...
Zeron wrote:Germany will annex everyone and transform the EU to the 4th reich and nullify all of its limitations on army etc because its not the German Federal Republic anymore but European Union hence they are not valid anymore, how clever of them.
I won't mind that :D

it could be fun...
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Randorama »

What could happen in the next few years or so is that the EU could effectively steer all members to certain standards of fiscal responsibility, equality standards and in general impose a strict, efficient model of governance on state members.

Failure to stick these standards may effectively trigger the commissioning of a government. This has already happened in Italy and Greece, and could now happen in Belgium, where there is no government since last election, HELD IN 2010 (570 days and counting!).

This power can be treated as forced form of "rescue of a country from itself". The aim is to grant that, say, if the people democratically elects a government which fucks up the country and becomes an economical parasite in the EU, said government is removed, and swapped with people who have a clue on how to govern. Prime ministers and/or government members from Goldman and Sachs are a plus.

The first experiment was Italy, in which the worst government since the foundation of the modern state was kicked out rather quickly. Whether it is successful or not remains to be seen. I'd rather have a smart Goldman and Sachs board member (Mario Monti) than a mafia/CIA-driven imbecile (Silvio Berlusconi) in place.

In theory, all of EU would look more like Germany and the scandinavian countries, which is something that can't be bad (but frau Angela Merkel is wresting with a growing public debt, btw). Healthy welfare, lack of corruption and fiscal responsibility (i.e. taxes for the rich) are virtues, full stop.

For reactionary (and british) imbeciles such as the guy in the youtube video, it is probably a "violation of democracy", and an offense to their inbred national pride. Probably such scum prefers to vote for oblivion, than having smart people to handle the public thing wisely (yes, Goldman and Sachs hires smart boys).

Fucking fools want to be represented by fucking fools, which is what passes as democracy these days (that, and cheap Daifukkatsu posters).

I agree with John Stuart Mill on voting systems, btw.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Specineff »

Zeron wrote:Germany will annex everyone and transform the EU to the 4th reich and nullify all of its limitations on army etc because its not the German Federal Republic anymore but European Union hence they are not valid anymore, how clever of them.

I think that's how Einhander started, too. All we need is a Lunar colony.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Khan »

You only have to watch one of his videos to realise hes a racist bigoted idiot, I pretty much closed it as soon as i saw his face :x
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Vyxx »

Khan wrote:
You only have to watch one of his videos to realise hes a racist bigoted idiot, I pretty much closed it as soon as i saw his face :x
Hate the players not the game.

He may be one sided but he's ultimately right.

I suggest you don't watch his religious videos you might shit yourself.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by neorichieb1971 »

What I don't understand is what the lenders were thinking?

"oh sir of course, your $3trillion in debt so have more of my money whilst your at it"


Maybe Capitilism is now the survival of the fittest and to win you have to be playing, to be playing you have to have money, to have money you've got to borrow. You borrow a shitload, gamble it on the stock exchange, where it goes down a black hole and then the cycle starts again with "please sir can I have some more?"
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Drum »

Tax money, not people.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Skykid »

neorichieb1971 wrote:What I don't understand is what the lenders were thinking?

"oh sir of course, your $3trillion in debt so have more of my money whilst your at it"


Maybe Capitilism is now the survival of the fittest and to win you have to be playing, to be playing you have to have money, to have money you've got to borrow. You borrow a shitload, gamble it on the stock exchange, where it goes down a black hole and then the cycle starts again with "please sir can I have some more?"
Well that's similar to what the bankers did, but in the process they bought themselves positions of power within the highest levels of government. When people say "The bankers own the world", they ain't kidding.

If you have a government with several people working in the interest of the banks, deregulation gets passed if and when required. Deregulation began with Reagan, and over the years it's become almost impossible to hold them to account because you can't check up on what they're doing (creating a derivatives market so they can gamble global finances as if they're in a Casino.)
Credit rating agencies are just as corrupt - they gave Lehman bros a triple A rating within weeks of their collapse.

Bankers own the world, and if they keep fucking up then they'll continue to withdraw our money to line their pockets. Nothing except a violent revolution will change that.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Michaelm »

Europe is only a colony in disguise of the US.
Like in the US, most of us are kept dumb and ignorant.
We have to behave or we'll be slaughtered just like Gadhaffi.
We can't do it for ourselves cause we are just a colony (in disguise).
All of our far-right governments are hailed and saluted in the US.
But still none of our governments is as far-right as the US government is, was and will be.
Remember that western governments are owned by the big corporations and their bankers.
And yes, we are members of the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization.

What a wonderful world we are living in....
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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I don't mean to defend the banks, bankers or anything (fsck them, in fact), but all this should be irrelevant to us as capable individuals. I am responsible for carving out my own happiness, so them fat cats wiping their ass with gold foil has absolutely no bearing on me and my future. There's always a way around, above or through all that sewage. They can go drink molten silver for all I care; I'm too busy making my little patch of heaven here on earth.

Seriously. What do I care if the rich get taxed less? It's not like more money is going to necessarily make it to me if they start getting taxed more.

(No, not trolling. Just stating my own personal view. It's not like WW2 is still raging on, or the black plague ravages the populations)
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Specineff,

Thats correct, but unfortunately if we as individuals save up our pennies and create our own golden path the boys at the top of the game have our resources to play with still.

I'm a non believer in politics, its a religion of faith more than Christianity itself. I've never been "wow'd" by a politician (not in a good professional standing anyway). The only way to stabilize the system is to make it out of something that doesn't fall. For that we need something we all contribute to and all benefit from. For that we don't need educational or skills, we just need a collective ambition to make it work.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I suppose your feelgood factor goes south when you're not capable of sustaining your life by yourself anymore. People of Europe, those who go to work, don't make many children and it shows.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

Specineff wrote:I don't mean to defend the banks, bankers or anything (fsck them, in fact), but all this should be irrelevant to us as capable individuals. I am responsible for carving out my own happiness, so them fat cats wiping their ass with gold foil has absolutely no bearing on me and my future. There's always a way around, above or through all that sewage. They can go drink molten silver for all I care; I'm too busy making my little patch of heaven here on earth.

Seriously. What do I care if the rich get taxed less? It's not like more money is going to necessarily make it to me if they start getting taxed more.

(No, not trolling. Just stating my own personal view. It's not like WW2 is still raging on, or the black plague ravages the populations)
I have no issue with it either, except these ultra-rich folk then use that money to buy power in govt. to make more rules that will benefit them even more and take away more govt. services from everyone else. They then use scapegoats ranging from illegal aliens, welfare queens, muslims, etc. the way "communists" were used back in the day to avert attention from the real problems. It's how a rat bastard like gingrich can actually bring up the notion of abolishing child labour laws without so much as a retort in the form of a punch to his fat, ugly mug. He basically asked the same question, "Why can't they do it for themselves?" Hey, little kids who are from poor families don't need an education, access to good healthcare, and love and support from their families. What they need is to go to work. I hope this f***** gets head cancer 8)
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by BulletMagnet »

Specineff wrote:Seriously. What do I care if the rich get taxed less? It's not like more money is going to necessarily make it to me if they start getting taxed more.
The problem is that (in the US, at least) despite increased productivity across the board only the top few percentage points are actually reaping the benefits (and then some); everyone else has either stagnated or regressed in terms of purchasing power and/or quality of life. Changes to the tax structure aren't the only things to blame, but they're a major part of it.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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Specineff wrote:I don't mean to defend the banks, bankers or anything (fsck them, in fact), but all this should be irrelevant to us as capable individuals. I am responsible for carving out my own happiness, so them fat cats wiping their ass with gold foil has absolutely no bearing on me and my future. There's always a way around, above or through all that sewage. They can go drink molten silver for all I care; I'm too busy making my little patch of heaven here on earth.

Seriously. What do I care if the rich get taxed less? It's not like more money is going to necessarily make it to me if they start getting taxed more.

(No, not trolling. Just stating my own personal view. It's not like WW2 is still raging on, or the black plague ravages the populations)
Gotta say I respect your positive outlook but disagree with your leniency. Carving out your own little patch of heaven, as you put it, has become increasingly more difficult precisely because of the grip the bankers and corporations have placed on the entire financial world.
In the 60's a US factory worker was a well paid and respected individual. He had the money for a large house, automobiles and disposable income - he could also support a housewife and children on his wage alone.
Today a factory worker will be lucky to be able to afford a nice bedsit, and if they're on a mortgage they're most definitely living in mountains of debt. The standard of living has fallen dramatically since machines began replacing labour, and there was a uniform collaboration to move as many jobs as possible into a low pay bracket. Government enforcement of realistic wages went up in smoke as soon as banking contributions started to buy positions of influence.

Some people will be able to make a patch and be happy with it, even under circumstances that are beginning to resemble Roman slavery - but the opportunities for true free enterprise is dwindling. This banking crisis has triggered mass unemployment globally, and the younger generation is facing one of the highest rates of joblessness ever. That will have a knock on effect in years to come as they have no recourse to get on the property ladder (when now is really the time to be doing so.)

In short, the financial powers shouldn't be spat on, they should be imprisoned for their fraud and dismantled.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Specineff »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:I suppose your feelgood factor goes south when you're not capable of sustaining your life by yourself anymore. People of Europe, those who go to work, don't make many children and it shows.
Been there, done that, beat it and got back on top. Honest. I know I come off as very optimistic, but having danced with the devil himself, the current state of things is nothing to me. Sorry I don't share everyone's point of view. Maybe it's because I've figured out the bullet pattern of that particular boss.

(I'm serious.)
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by neorichieb1971 »

You can dance with the devil inside your nice house, but you still have to look out the window sometimes and see the devil shitting on everyone else.

edit - I live with my mother. Not because I have to, but it certainly helps us both. 2 people paying one lot of household bills is better than us both having seperate properties and paying 2 lots of everything. I think thats where people go wrong in their lives. They can't wait to get out of the parents place and put the full weight of expectation on their own shoulders.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Specineff »

Don't want to sound selfish, but, what can I do about everyone else's devil-shat house, that they can't do themselves?
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by BulletMagnet »

Vote for someone who's willing to lend them a halfway-decent shovel to dig themselves out (and maybe even throw in an air freshener too if you really want to tread deep into Socialist territory), for starters.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by neorichieb1971 »

I don't know the USA or Europe for that matter, but in the UK its homes that kills people. The prices are high, banks are not lending and those on the housing ladder are in a high risk situation. This in turn causes the economy to shrink...

So everyone in the UK, move in with your relations, sell your gaff and buy lots of iphones and nice shiny cars with the money you saved. There, you saved your own country already.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

It's the same story here in SoCal. Their pay doesn't allow them to buy any homes. I recall a saying that one shouldn't pay more than 3 times their yearly income for a house, but houses here cost at least 6 times the yearly income (ex: average income is 50K/year and houses are more than 300K). People in SoCal are nothing more than indentured servants 8)
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