Let's talk sequels and franchises

[Estebang]

I only played MGS3 to the first boss. It was badly designed from the get go. With no radar

Oh, for fuck's sake.

You have two forms of radar in your starting inventory: a motion detector and a ping wave. The latter can pick up stationary objects, but isn't silent. Learn to make good use of them, and you also have a microphone for hearing faraway and unseen footsteps. Using your eyes in first-person helps as well.

Though I agree that the non-Subsistence version of MGS3 borders on unplayable.

[evil_ash_xero]

Hrmm...RE 5 was an abomination? I mean, it wasn't the best, but an abomination? Yikes. I think it's pretty fun, actually.

Oh well.

The "radar" in MGS 3 is a little funky. They could have done a better job with that. However, the fact that you can smoke everyone, and they don't keep coming back, or endlessly call for backup, makes up for it a bit. Well, it makes up for it a lot actually. And yes, Subsistence is the only way to go.

[Estebang]

The "radar" in MGS 3 is a little funky. They could have done a better job with that.

It takes place in 1964, did you really expect them to have GPS devices?

If you're not at least trying to make it through every stealth area undetected, you're not playing the game right. Snake isn't Rambo.

[JBC]

Part 5 was an abomination of a game.

True for the main game, but if you can find it cheap, the game is worth buying for the mercenaries mode which is great fun to play for score, especially with two players. Has nothing to do with the horror game nature of the series though.

^ Agree. Mercenaries is one of the most under-appreciated things of this console generation. I bought a 3DS and REM3D just to show support in hopes that Capcom will make one for consoles. Looks like Operation Raccoon is the closest we'll get for now but I've still got my fingers crossed. Just imagining Merc maps built off locations from the original 3 games makes meh jizz.

[Estebang]

3DS Mercenaries has un-deletable save data as an attempt to curb used sales.

Yeah.

[JBC]

3DS Mercenaries has un-deletable save data as an attempt to curb used sales.

Yeah.

Read that didja? How'd you like the game?

[BIL]

I actually shouted in delight after the first time I wrenched a stunned enemy's spine as HUNK in RE4 Mercs.

*CRACK*

This is making me want to fire it up right now actually. Mercs '05 > Mercs '91.

[Skykid]

Though I agree that the non-Subsistence version of MGS3 borders on unplayable.

It is unplayable.

I have no idea why Kojima gets off so lightly with the MGS series, the PSX original is still the best, leanest and most enjoyable. He's still not bettered it because he pumps his follow ups with so much pretentious baloney he loses sight of the actual 'game' part.

I remember when myself and another staff member bought a PS2 on my credit card as a temporary purchase just to play MGS3, took it home and set it up, all excited like it was Christmas.

We played for a bit, dying over and over, getting caught over and over, restarting over and over. Got to some cutscenes and watched for 30 minutes, then went back to the restarting business.

After a few hours he breaks the silence by turning to me and announcing with conviction, "this is fucking rubbish," at which point we switched it off and took it back for a refund the next day. We were angry men.

Subsistence wasn't a bonus reworking, it was a requirement for a broken game.

[Estebang]

I have no idea why Kojima gets off so lightly with the MGS series, the PSX original is still the best, leanest and most enjoyable. He's still not bettered it because he pumps his follow ups with so much pretentious baloney he loses sight of the actual 'game' part.

Now you're just making shit up. MGS4 is the only game in the series that can be at all accused of "losing sight of the gameplay." The original game played little different from the MSX titles. But from the first to the third, every new entry greatly expanded and improved on the mechanics to an exponential degree. MGS2 added a huge array of movement and observation options, corpses no longer disappeared, and enemies were made much smarter. There was also the added challenge of a no-kill run. MGS3 wisely took away your omniscient radar and added huge sprawling outdoor environments, the camo system, the hunger bar, multiple ways of taking out bosses, disguises, and more stuff than I care to list.

The plot is only one component of the games. I mean, if the cutscenes aren't your cuppa, you can skip all of them, but you're missing out on some of the medium's best storytelling.

[Skykid]

The plot is only one component of the games. I mean, if the cutscenes aren't your cuppa, you can skip all of them, but you're missing out on some of the medium's best storytelling.

No, you're making shit up. Kojima's storytelling is some of the most offensively banal wafflerific crap I've ever had to bear witness to. Sitting through the tripe that is MGS2 was like skinning your knuckles with a cheese grater. The man doesn't know when its time to reel in the tropes and self-referenatial humour and hire an editor (or better yet reassign the task of scriptwriting to someone with a clue.)

I'm not interesting in arguing with MGS apologists to be honest, it takes far too long to list all the things about them that are utterly rubbish. There are semblances of good games in MGS 2, 3 and 4, but they're ultimately overshadowed by painful monotony and a lack of inspired gameplay (that old chestnut.)
MGS2's best features are its enemy characters and corresponding boss fights, MGS3 the same. MGS4's 3rd person perspective and relaxed stealth elements make it immediately more accessible, but it's still bogged down with pacing problems and woefully idiotic scripting.

Skipping the cutscenes is not preferable. I can't stand to think I'm actually missing large elements of the game. That unfortunately means I need to grin and bear all their dragging incoherencies and accept, as I do with so many Japanese movies, that there's so much lost in translation that it's really best not to try too hard.

For a prime example of just how retardedly convoluted MGS is, I urge anyone with a PS3 to download the MGS4 Database and gape in disbelief at how ridiculous the timeline of events is. Anyone who defends that barrel of shit as some sort of masterclass in storytelling doesn't have all their dogs barking.

For me MGS is exactly the reason Japanese gaming has ground to a halt. Its clunky backwardness is stiff and unappealing compared to the fluidity and level of dynamism offered by the better western developers.

[mesh control]

nanomachines

[Siren2011]

I would love to see...

Fear Effect Inferno - (See my review of the first game in my "Non-shmup reviews" thread. It's hands down the best review of the game on the internet, or from any gaming publication around the time of its release to now. Which is to say it's the best review of the game ever written. Trust me, I've read every single one of them and only a couple decide to get to the bottom of things and discuss the game beyond the graphics and boobies. And all of the others rage against it for being "too hard" and "not ambitious enough" without bothering to explain why and what should be added to make it "moar ambitious." )

Shenmue 3? Sure. In this economy? Not gonna happen.

Jet Set Radio 3 with more challenging obstacles and a mission timer just like in the first game.

Gunvalkyrie 2

Heart of Darkness 2

Bayonetta 2

Mirror's Edge 2 with better hand-to-hand combat.

[Estebang]

MGS4 is pitiful. I like to pretend Peace Walker is the real fourth entry in the series.

It seems like you have no goddamn patience whatsoever, Skykid. You want game design to be nice and railroaded and "accessible" so you don't actually have to *GASP!* make decisions about your actions, or accept the consequences of a failure. Do I try to sneak around this guy, do I use camo to sneak up to him, or do I pop him off with a tranq from a distance? Do I try to flashbang them all out before they can sound an alarm? Do I throw an empty mag to distract them? Or in the fight with The End: Do I run around like a maniac looking for him, constantly checking the map, or do I sit in place and wait for him to try knocking me out? Trying each of these scenarios and seeing how they all play out, failure or success, is thrilling and fascinating.

None of this depth is present in most popular modern Western games, those with the "fluidity and dynamism" you so crave. Take the stealth setpieces in Arkham Asylum: you can always see through solid objects with your retard-vision, so no enemy will ever surprise you, and the grapple gargoyles are a guaranteed safespot even if you're sighted. The fighting engine amounts to "press attack until you're told to press counter." You can pick goons off with batarangs, you can swoop down on them, but it's all the same. It's just like how in Bioshock, electrocuting maniacs in pools of water doesn't give you any advantage over simply shooting them in the head, it's just a gimmick the designers threw in because it looked cool and appealed to players' sadism. One of the worst offenders is Splinter Cell Conviction, which has a goddamn instant headshot button. And then there's this infamous video.

I believe you're mistaking "fluidity and dynamism" for a game playing itself for you.

[Skykid]

MGS4 is pitiful. I like to pretend Peace Walker is the real fourth entry in the series.

It seems like you have no goddamn patience whatsoever, Skykid. You want game design to be nice and railroaded and "accessible" so you don't actually have to *GASP!* make decisions about your actions, or accept the consequences of a failure. Do I try to sneak around this guy, do I use camo to sneak up to him, or do I pop him off with a tranq from a distance? Do I try to flashbang them all out before they can sound an alarm? Do I throw an empty mag to distract them? Or in the fight with The End: Do I run around like a maniac looking for him, constantly checking the map, or do I sit in place and wait for him to try knocking me out? Trying each of these scenarios and seeing how they all play out is thrilling and fascinating.

None of this depth is present in most popular modern Western games, those with the "fluidity and dynamism" you so crave. Take the stealth setpieces in Arkham Asylum: you can always see through solid objects with your retard-vision, so no enemy will ever surprise you, and the grapple gargoyles are a guaranteed safespot even if you're sighted. The fighting engine amounts to "press attack until you're told to press counter." You can pick goons off with batarangs, you can swoop down on them, but it's all the same. It's just like how in Bioshock, electrocuting maniacs in pools of water doesn't give you any advantage over simply shooting them in the head, it's just a gimmick the designers threw in because it looked cool and appealed to players' sadism. One of the worst offenders is Splinter Cell Conviction, which has a goddamn instant headshot button. And then there's this infamous video.

I believe you're mistaking "fluidity and dynamism" for a game playing itself for you.

Please don't patronise me. You don't know my history in gaming, so you can't pigeonhole my tastes by extrapolating the 'notion' of a love affair with current gen from a comment that suggests MGS is stale as fuck and littered with failings.
I'm probably the most damning critic of current gen on this forum, so your argumental response is void as I agree with all the points you made. Furthermore I've had the patience to play all of the MGS games in their entirety, so I can be justifiably judgemental. It's not like I gave up and walked away.

You're an MGS apologist and I'm a realist. That's why our opinions will always be at odds.

Nanomachines make it so.

[Estebang]

I don't need to "apologize" for shit.

Your comment about "better Western developers" seemed very telling about your tastes. Give me an example of one of these developers.

[Skykid]

Your comment about "better Western developers" seemed very telling about your tastes. Give me an example of one of these developers.

You just misinterpreted/misread the point. If you knew anything about my tastes there wouldn't be a misunderstanding.

Its clunky backwardness is stiff and unappealing compared to the fluidity and level of dynamism offered by the better western developers.

Better western developers. The sentence is self-explanatory. Basically anything that turned out to be playable/pioneering while not making generic concessions to brainpower and motor skills.

Personally I find it hard to be enthusiastic about current gen as I've had to play so much of it - and it's 95% crap. But on the rare occasion it's successful there are good examples of progression being made in the action genre.

Personally I thought MGS was dead in the water the day Biohazard 4 landed in my Gamecube. Twenty minutes of that made Hideo's series completely obsolete.

I don't need to "apologize" for shit.

I didn't say you were apologising, I said you were an apologist: you argue for the defence and justification of a series that's dated and rife with negative aspects, even though you yourself cited vanilla MSG3 as "bordering on unplayable."

[evil_ash_xero]

Now this is an intense battle!

Anyway, I like MGS, but it's got problems. That's all I can say. 2 is only playable by skipping all the cutscenes and chat. It's that bad. But underneath that, I find it to be fun. I think 3 is lots of fun. I also liked the story in 3, but of course, it was overblown. But I cannot condemn the story enough, from part 2.

Another positive about 3, was the massive reduction in codec calls. You only got them, when something important was going to happen(for the most part), and they didn't ramble on and on, like in 2, and somewhat in 1. I just thought the beginning of it was really cinema heavy. But after you watch it once(and it is a pretty entertaining story), you never have to watch it again.

Zone Of The Enders 2(a game that I really like, but is also flawed), has problems that are similar. I feel like I walk into a room, and a cutscene starts. I skip it, and even though I can, it seems like I'm pressing start way too often. I think the actual games underneath, are good to great though. I don't really see what's wrong with the game design, for the most part.

But..BUT! my original idea for this thread, was simply, how long can a series keep being the same, before it starts to falter. That was my original reason for this thread.

One thing that irks me a bit...is the massive amount of criticism at the Japanese, for not doing "new" things. OK, now before I get bombarded with how bad the JP game scene is...I'm aware. Thing is, the Western game scene has just gotten into full swing, and now we're up to part 3s and 4s of our games. Don't they seem to do the same thing over and over also? I always thought that was a bullshit criticism, that was going to come back and swat us in the face


A bit out of nowhere...did anyone else like Lunar Knights? I didn't like the first 3 Boktai's, but the reinvention of the series, with the fourth one, I really enjoyed. Of course, they didn't make any more after that.

[Skykid]

Another positive about 3, was the massive reduction in codec calls. You only got them, when something important was going to happen(for the most part), and they didn't ramble on and on, like in 2, and somewhat in 1. I just thought the beginning of it was really cinema heavy. But after you watch it once(and it is a pretty entertaining story), you never have to watch it again.

The reduction in codec calls in part 3 was balanced out with the lengthening of cutscenes. Preferable, but still frustrating, especially as you're happier skipping codec waffle than actual plot developments.

But I cannot condemn the story enough, from part 2.

There is no story in part 2. I'd like to sit Hideo down and ask him to explain it; I've never seen a head physically collapse before.

As I mentioned, there are positive aspects in the series, it's not all filler and drivel, it's just bogged down by filler and drivel. If all of MGS2 was as good as its opening, it would have been a crowning achievement for its time. Instead it was the point that divided gamers into two camps: those who realised Hideo's abilities were limited beyond cinematic direction, and those who apologised for his every action by citing the brilliance of his self-referential humour, and why all the crap stuff is actually good because it's meant to be crap.

Like that somehow works.

[evil_ash_xero]

his self-referential humour

You know, there is a gag in Peace Walker, where one of his crew makes a "tank box". And it's the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen. It's small cardboard tank. Huey is like "uh, Boss, I don't know what they were thinking. I'll have a talk with them". And Boss is like.."It's beautiful!". Now that was actually funny.

Have you played Peace Walker? I'd recommend it to someone who is really not into the story stuff in MGS. It's cutscenes are way shorter(and drawn), and there's tons of content. Give it a look, if you haven't. But make sure it's the HD collection version. The PSP one...that's some awkward control.

[Skykid]

his self-referential humour

You know, there is a gag in Peace Walker, where one of his crew makes a "tank box". And it's the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen. It's small cardboard tank. Huey is like "uh, Boss, I don't know what they were thinking. I'll have a talk with them". And Boss is like.."It's beautiful!". Now that was actually funny.

Have you played Peace Walker? I'd recommend it to someone who is really not into the story stuff in MGS. It's cutscenes are way shorter(and drawn), and there's tons of content. Give it a look, if you haven't. But make sure it's the HD collection version. The PSP one...that's some awkward control.

No, but I kept my press copy, it's still in my cupboard. I might take a look at some point.

I don't mind some of MGS's referential humour, but Hideo, like everything else, can't reign it in. He ruins what's effective by constantly overdoing it.

EDIT: Sorry, I need to address this point also:

Do I try to sneak around this guy, do I use camo to sneak up to him, or do I pop him off with a tranq from a distance? Do I try to flashbang them all out before they can sound an alarm? Do I throw an empty mag to distract them? Or in the fight with The End: Do I run around like a maniac looking for him, constantly checking the map, or do I sit in place and wait for him to try knocking me out?

All of this works much better in theory than in practice. Anyone who has played MGS knows it takes an age of dedication to be able to pull off successful creativity on the fly. Most of the time being creative rarely goes your way, especially as you end up in a silly game of menu cycling and position switching under a hail of gunfire. It's less than graceful because the implementation of the controls/menus was out of date post original PSX MGS - the only thing that got better were the graphics and technical aspects.

When you experience one flourish of successful stealth in MGS it's liberating, but as several earlier posts suggest, it's not an easy thing to come by - a fault of the mechanics rather than the player.

And for once (although I certainly don't hate them as much) I'm mostly in agreement with Drum, which makes a nice change.

[Drum]

I would love to see...

Fear Effect Inferno - (See my review of the first game in my "Non-shmup reviews" thread. It's hands down the best review of the game on the internet, or from any gaming publication around the time of its release to now. Which is to say it's the best review of the game ever written. Trust me, I've read every single one of them and only a couple decide to get to the bottom of things and discuss the game beyond the graphics and boobies. And all of the others rage against it for being "too hard" and "not ambitious enough" without bothering to explain why and what should be added to make it "moar ambitious." )

Shenmue 3? Sure. In this economy? Not gonna happen.

Jet Set Radio 3 with more challenging obstacles and a mission timer just like in the first game.

Gunvalkyrie 2

Heart of Darkness 2

Bayonetta 2

Mirror's Edge 2 with better hand-to-hand combat.

You want Shenmue 3 and Heart of Darkness 2? And you were giving early games shit for being too simplistic? God, I've been giving you too much credit.

I mean, if the cutscenes aren't your cuppa, you can skip all of them, but you're missing out on some of the medium's best storytelling.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Siren2011]

You want Shenmue 3 and Heart of Darkness 2? And you were giving early games shit for being too simplistic?

Oh dear God. Heart of Darkness I can understand, but the Shenmue series is simplistic? My God, you're an autistic moron. The game has it's own realistic weather system, a highly interactive world with (playable!) arcade machines in arcades, capsule toy machines, secret encounters with thugs depending on the day and time you walk down a particular alleyway, advancing the story through a new branch, a Virtua Fighter inspired fighting system with trainable and upgradable moves, and plenty of side quests?

That is simple.

lol.

Nigga, please. The only thing simplistic about it is QTE.

God, I've been giving you too much credit.

I wasn't aware that you were giving me any credit to begin with, but then again I don't give two fucks. Oh no! My self worth depends on what Drum on the internet thinks of me! *curls up into fetal position*

[Skykid]

I'd kill for Shenmue 3.

Fucking Sega.

[Drum]

You want Shenmue 3 and Heart of Darkness 2? And you were giving early games shit for being too simplistic?

Oh dear God. Heart of Darkness I can understand, but the Shenmue series is simplistic? My God, you're an autistic moron. The game has it's own realistic weather system, a highly interactive world with (playable!) arcade machines in arcades, capsule toy machines, secret encounters with thugs depending on the day and time you walk down a particular alleyway, advancing the story through a new branch, a Virtua Fighter inspired fighting system with trainable and upgradable moves, and plenty of side quests?

That is simple.

lol.

Nigga, please. The only thing simplistic about it is QTE.

'Lots of shit to do' is complex like a Jumbo-colouring-fun-and-activity-book is complex. The QTEs are dumb, but they're not any dumber than any other part of the game. It's comical to put capsule toy machines as a complexity bullet point and concede QTEs. That trashy retro arcade games (you have to go back to the mid 70s to find arcade games more air-headed than Super Hang-On and Space Harrier) apparently warrant an exclamation point is too much. The character routines/weather and game world itself is pretty involved but the requirements of the player are nil - far less than Space Invaders. I don't even hate Shenmue or anything, I just thought it was hilarious that that is your standard for 'complexity'. I'm glad it's been clarified, anyway.

[Skykid]

I mean, if the cutscenes aren't your cuppa, you can skip all of them, but you're missing out on some of the medium's best storytelling.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that.

[Siren2011]

The QTEs are dumb, but they're not any dumber than any other part of the game.

I fucking hate this forum. Boring as hell discussions, stupid arguments, asinine people. But it's my own fault that I continue posting here, so I have no right to complain.

I just thought it was hilarious that that is your standard for 'complexity'.

What on earth does "requirements of the player" mean? I mean shit, dude. Getting an Xbox 360 achievement is technically "a requirement of the player," (of one who wants to beat the game to 100% completion.) and there are around one hundred of those little things in every 360 game for crying out loud. Now that would be a hilarious example of "complexity." At least the toy capsule machine/soda machine/etc add to the realistic aspect of the game. The only thing I'm willing to aknowledge as factual from your last post is how they are all, however, complex in a "jumbo coloring book" kind of way, so perhaps those were shitty examples.

Also, Space Harrier is a masterpiece. If I played it in the same year it was released, I have no doubt in my mind that my mind would be blown. Is it nowhere near as much fun or complicated as Panzer Dragoon Orta? Yup. But is it a trashy game? Fuck no.

The character routines/weather and game world itself is pretty involved but the requirements of the player are nil - far less than Space Invaders.

I'd love to hear you elaborate. How in the fuck is Space Invaders MORE complicated than Shenmue? Detailed explanation, please. This should be quite fun to watch.

[Paradigm]

stupid arguments, asinine people.

I agree.

It seems everybody likes to put on their super-intelligent-expert-games-critic hat when they post on a gaming forum, it's pretty sad.

[JBC]

@Siren You're being trolled. Everyone knows Shenmue is a beloved classic that was way ahead of it's time. When that happens it's best to just ignore it and move along.

[Drum]

Also, Space Harrier is a masterpiece. If I played it in the same year it was released, I have no doubt in my mind that my mind would be blown. Is it nowhere near as much fun or complicated as Panzer Dragoon Orta? Yup. But is it a trashy game? Fuck no.

Gameplay is rice paper thin - we're talking less than Ozma Wars here - and the scoring is completely broken. Score stays upon continue, but even if you agree to a one-credit play the score goes up with time, and with no boss timer. Your 'if I played it in the same year' qualifier is telling - but even then there were many, many better games available - some of which you've previously dismissed.

I'd love to hear you elaborate. How in the fuck is Space Invaders MORE complicated than Shenmue? Detailed explanation, please. This should be quite fun to watch.

I didn't say it was more complicated, that goes against my whole 'simple can be good'. I said it was more demanding and requires more thought to do well in. Shenmue has virtually no gameplay and requires no strategy. It would be cynical to even call it a game. At least point-and-click adventures have puzzles, Shenmue doesn't even have that.

[Drum]

@Siren You're being trolled. Everyone knows Shenmue is a beloved classic that was way ahead of it's time. When that happens it's best to just ignore it and move along.

Ugh.