Let's talk sequels and franchises

[evil_ash_xero]

This sort of spins out of my conversation at the Dark Souls board, on GameFAQs.

At what point, do you think a franchise starts to go stale? I think after 3 games, without a major shakeup...a lot of times they go stale.

I'm gonna throw a few games at you, as general observations...

Resident Evil...Okay, I don't think the main line is bloated. But the series is. If you just play RE, RE2, and the real part 3: CV...they just kept upping the ante(and weirdness), before they reinvented the series with 4. 5 was cool, but it was really obvious it had really no new ideas at all(probably due to the fact of Capcom letting all the creators go). But with the side games(3, Zero, and all those other ones), the series seems bloated, and repetitive. But it really isn't....if you look at the core games.

God Of War...Once again, the main series isn't bloated. But I don't think the team has anywhere else to go with the game, or the character(for a number of reasons). 1, 2, and 3 are all damn good games, that just keep upping the "epicness" of it all. But if you play the PSP games too(which are good), you feel like "damn, I'm playing the same thing over and over". Which is pretty true, really.

Metal Gear Solid...this is a tough one... I think the second one really fucked up, in a lot of ways. It was still quite fun, and had a few new things to do, but it was pretty similar(but with....major problems). Fortunately, they realized this, and got back on track with part 3, which is quite awesome, and fresh. They also keep adding new things to the series, that keeps it going. I don't know how long they can keep this up...but well, part 5 is coming out. And if you play the games in a row, only 2 seems kind of "the same". So, good for them, on that one.

Ninja Gaiden...I would have loved to see a third one, by the REAL Team Ninja, but no... But even if we did, how much further could they push that game? I mean, it would probably start to get old, after the 3rd one, anyway. Unless they changed things radically.

Anyway, I'm rambling. What do you guys think of games that get stale, or a series that stagnates? How long can you keep doing the same thing, before people just get bored with it?

[Blackbird]

Let me cite an example to describe how I feel about this. I seem to recall a quote pertaining to engineering that went something like: "You have attained perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

I do like sequels - I essentially see them as efforts to perfect the format established in the previous games. Elements are added (or removed) and the game's failings are revised, and hopefully the sequel is an even better game. After one or more effective sequels/revisions, the game is essentially as good as it can be without radically altering the base formula of the game. It's essentially reached the epitome of what it can be. After that, additional sequels can't really make the formula better without changing what the game is. They usually try to get around this my just adding more features, more levels, more creatures, more -stuff-, but this is just bloat. Filler to increase the number of boxes on the checklist that can be checked off, but not really adding anything to improve the game's fundamentals - what it's actually about, and what makes it actually fun.

Sequels are excellent so long as they continue to improve what makes the game actually better, but fail when they thoughtlessly pile stuff on. The best sequel strips out the failings of the first game and amplifies what made it good, leaving only the most refined experience left.

[CMoon]

Honestly getting rather tired of SMT games. Needs a current gen release and some serious creativity dumped into it (like Nocturne). Enjoyed Strange Journey, but maybe because of so many other SMT games + Etrian Odyssey it started feeling very old after a while. Don't really care much for the Persona spin offs.

Yakuza: I've enjoyed them all, but 3 & 4 came too close together (in part because I waited a long while on 3), and the truth is they have absolutely no new ideas anymore, even if I enjoy the games.

I really enjoyed the God Hand series, especially with how challenging the chihuahua races got on part 3, but when they put out God Hand 4 without Mikami heading it, the game just felt hollow. I didn't bother with part 5. ... ... ... ...

[steveovig]

This might be a stupid place to ask this but do any of the Metal Gear games have an easy difficulty? I want to get into the MGS games but I've always been deterred by the gameplay mechanics and difficulty.

[Moniker]

This might be a stupid place to ask this but do any of the Metal Gear games have an easy difficulty? I want to get into the MGS games but I've always been deterred by the gameplay mechanics and difficulty.

Try playing the original MGS. I first started 2 with no idea of what was going on or how things worked in the game, so I gave up pretty early. MGS eases you into things a whole lot better, imo. I still haven't beaten it but I'm betting a revisit of 2 will be a lot better once I do.

As for the main topic, I think Blackbird hit the nail on the head. The only franchises that seem to have thrived after 3 games are Final Fantasy and Mega Man. And Nintendo's first party stuff. Nintendo tends to reinvent things with each sequel, so that explains that. I guess one could write a book on what Final Fantasy does right and wrong with each iteration, but their primary way of keeping things fresh is character development, and the success of each title seems to go along with that, regardless of whatever else is going on. Megaman is a weird anomaly where things are more awesome the less they change.

[Estebang]

All the MGS games have easy difficulties. Some have Very Easy, but that's just setting the bar too low. And MGS1 is really not a difficult game even on Normal: you have tons of rations, stealth setpieces are simplistic, and you can gun down soldiers with the silenced pistol carefree, since enemy corpses disappear.

[burgerkingdiamond]

This sort of spins out of my conversation at the Dark Souls board, on GameFAQs.

At what point, do you think a franchise starts to go stale? I think after 3 games, without a major shakeup...a lot of times they go stale.

I'm gonna throw a few games at you, as general observations...

Resident Evil...Okay, I don't think the main line is bloated. But the series is. If you just play RE, RE2, and the real part 3: CV...they just kept upping the ante(and weirdness), before they reinvented the series with 4. 5 was cool, but it was really obvious it had really no new ideas at all(probably due to the fact of Capcom letting all the creators go). But with the side games(3, Zero, and all those other ones), the series seems bloated, and repetitive. But it really isn't....if you look at the core games.

God Of War...Once again, the main series isn't bloated. But I don't think the team has anywhere else to go with the game, or the character(for a number of reasons). 1, 2, and 3 are all damn good games, that just keep upping the "epicness" of it all. But if you play the PSP games too(which are good), you feel like "damn, I'm playing the same thing over and over". Which is pretty true, really.

Metal Gear Solid...this is a tough one... I think the second one really fucked up, in a lot of ways. It was still quite fun, and had a few new things to do, but it was pretty similar(but with....major problems). Fortunately, they realized this, and got back on track with part 3, which is quite awesome, and fresh. They also keep adding new things to the series, that keeps it going. I don't know how long they can keep this up...but well, part 5 is coming out. And if you play the games in a row, only 2 seems kind of "the same". So, good for them, on that one.

Ninja Gaiden...I would have loved to see a third one, by the REAL Team Ninja, but no... But even if we did, how much further could they push that game? I mean, it would probably start to get old, after the 3rd one, anyway. Unless they changed things radically.

Anyway, I'm rambling. What do you guys think of games that get stale, or a series that stagnates? How long can you keep doing the same thing, before people just get bored with it?

Ninja Gaiden 3 - Ancient Ship of Doom Now that's a sequel. forget about the pretenders

[Arcade Legends 3]

evil_ash_xero. I know you.
You are also in that "sega-16" thing, right?
I do know your cheap threads in this forum.... So, please not - in this forum!

[Drum]

Resident Evil 3 is so much better than Code Veronica.

Metal Gear went south after the second one - Metal Gear 2 - and never really picked itself up.

Nintendo has really fucked up a lot of their first party franchises with some serious missteps (Metroid) and a lack of ideas/not understanding what to throw out (Zelda).

[Moniker]

Nintendo has really fucked up a lot of their first party franchises with some serious missteps (Metroid) and a lack of ideas/not understanding what to throw out (Zelda).

I think the principle still stands. Other M is really the only non-stellar game in a 10-game franchise. Even if 3D console Zeldas are getting into a rut, they're still stand-out awesome games. I have expressed elsewhere, though, that I wish they'd go back to the series's roots a little.

I'll admit Mario Kart is getting stale, though it took up to Mario Kart Wii (#6) for me to get bored.

In summation, I don't really think any Nintendo IPs are comparable to the "too many already" factor of Halo & other FPSes. At least I can't think of any. Oh yeah, and Castlevania like Megaman has managed to stay engaging over the course of ~12 games without changing very much.

[Estebang]

Metal Gear went south after the second one - Metal Gear 2 - and never really picked itself up.

Are you talking about the MSX games? That's the only way I can rationalize what you're saying, and even then...

[mesh control]

Nothing too critical, BUT the SSX series went downhill after the third game.

[stryc9]

evil_ash_xero. I know you.
You are also in that "sega-16" thing, right?
I do know your cheap threads in this forum.... So, please not - in this forum!

You quite right in the head mate?

[Friendly]

evil_ash_xero. I know you.
You are also in that "sega-16" thing, right?
I do know your cheap threads in this forum.... So, please not - in this forum!

You quite right in the head mate?

I assume that's a rethorical question.

( http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39223 )

[stryc9]

Hah! Yeah I missed all that.

[Drum]

Metal Gear went south after the second one - Metal Gear 2 - and never really picked itself up.

Are you talking about the MSX games? That's the only way I can rationalize what you're saying, and even then...

Let me explain: The Metal Gear Solid series is a laughably bad pile of crap. People are only just starting to realise this with 4.

[evil_ash_xero]

evil_ash_xero. I know you.
You are also in that "sega-16" thing, right?
I do know your cheap threads in this forum.... So, please not - in this forum!

You quite right in the head mate?

I assume that's a rethorical question.

( http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39223 )

I think I know who this guy is. I know his piss-poor English anywhere. Don't feed the troll, as they say.

[evil_ash_xero]

Metal Gear went south after the second one - Metal Gear 2 - and never really picked itself up.

Are you talking about the MSX games? That's the only way I can rationalize what you're saying, and even then...

Let me explain: The Metal Gear Solid series is a laughably bad pile of crap. People are only just starting to realise this with 4.

Ah, no way man. I mean, it definitely has it's problems...and I can see how people have problems with it. But it's got a lot of strong points. The series' worst problem is excess. Excess dialogue, excess cinemas, excess codec calls...etc.. 3 is pretty amazing, as it cuts down on the codec calls, by a lot, the cinemas are still long, and bunched up at the beginning, but you actually get to play the game without being interrupted for a long time.

I think Kojima has an every other game is bloated thing, going on. One was fine(for the most part), two was bloated. 3 was fine. 4...8 hours of cinema. Peace Walker is fine. I guess that makes us due for another huge bloated game about now? 5 has been confirmed.

Have you played Peace Walker? It's pretty fat free.

I've never played the MSX games, though I have them on the HD collection. Do they hold up? I have a real problem with 8 bit games. Somebody should redo those.

[Mortificator]

It makes more sense for people to get over their 8-bit hold-ups than for every great game to be remade every few years to conform to whatever art style is currently in vogue.

Let me explain: The Metal Gear Solid series is a laughably bad pile of crap. People are only just starting to realise this with 4.

If Metal Gear Solid 4 is bad, that doesn't tell you anything other than that Metal Gear Solid 4 is bad. It might make you unable to enjoy the earlier games afterward, like how biting into a bad apple kills your appetite for apples for a good long while, but you'd have to be a weirdo to conclude that apples were all bad all along and you didn't really enjoy the apples you enjoyed.

A strong argument could be made for Metal Gear 2 being the best in the series, but the original Metal Gear is lame in everything but concept. It requires very little thought or skill from the player... guards can only see in a pencil-thin line straight ahead, most alerts are neutralized simply by walking to the next screen, and all the bosses except the tank and the last pair are beaten by standing in one place and hammering the fire button.

[evil_ash_xero]

It makes more sense for people to get over their 8-bit hold-ups than for every great game to be remade every few years to conform to whatever art style is currently in vogue.

Perhaps.

I grew up with games that looked like blocks and sticks, but I still don't like 8 bit, since 16 showed up. Kind of weird.

[Drum]

It makes more sense for people to get over their 8-bit hold-ups than for every great game to be remade every few years to conform to whatever art style is currently in vogue.

Let me explain: The Metal Gear Solid series is a laughably bad pile of crap. People are only just starting to realise this with 4.

If Metal Gear Solid 4 is bad, that doesn't tell you anything other than that Metal Gear Solid 4 is bad. It might make you unable to enjoy the earlier games afterward, like how biting into a bad apple kills your appetite for apples for a good long while, but you'd have to be a weirdo to conclude that apples were all bad all along and you didn't really enjoy the apples you enjoyed.

The other games aren't bad because MGS4 is bad - I'm just saying that the other games are every bit as bad as MGS4.

A strong argument could be made for Metal Gear 2 being the best in the series, but the original Metal Gear is lame in everything but concept. It requires very little thought or skill from the player... guards can only see in a pencil-thin line straight ahead, most alerts are neutralized simply by walking to the next screen, and all the bosses except the tank and the last pair are beaten by standing in one place and hammering the fire button.

Still better than Solid because less story.
Also, what's good about the concept?

[Drum]

Ah, no way man. I mean, it definitely has it's problems...and I can see how people have problems with it. But it's got a lot of strong points. The series' worst problem is excess. Excess dialogue, excess cinemas, excess codec calls...etc.. 3 is pretty amazing, as it cuts down on the codec calls, by a lot, the cinemas are still long, and bunched up at the beginning, but you actually get to play the game without being interrupted for a long time.

I think Kojima has an every other game is bloated thing, going on. One was fine(for the most part), two was bloated. 3 was fine. 4...8 hours of cinema. Peace Walker is fine. I guess that makes us due for another huge bloated game about now? 5 has been confirmed.

Have you played Peace Walker? It's pretty fat free.

I've never played the MSX games, though I have them on the HD collection. Do they hold up? I have a real problem with 8 bit games. Somebody should redo those.

It's not just excess - it's that the content is actually poor. The writing is sub-sub-sub-George Lucas at his worst and the philosophy is not even half-baked. There are lots of cool touches to the gameplay, but they only serve to make the obvious omissions and problems more frustrating and baffling. The series is a mess on every level and is thick with Kojima's obvious autism. It's anthropologically and medically interesting, but they're shit games by any reasonable standard.

[Skykid]

This might be a stupid place to ask this but do any of the Metal Gear games have an easy difficulty? I want to get into the MGS games but I've always been deterred by the gameplay mechanics and difficulty.

Original PSX MGS has a much better difficulty balancing than everything up to MGS4. You won't have too much trouble getting to grips with it.

MGS2 is...

I think the second one really fucked up, in a lot of ways. It was still quite fun, and had a few new things to do, but it was pretty similar(but with....major problems).

Everything he said. Only the first 20 minutes are really worth playing tbh, and it's definitely harder to manage than its predecessor. If you decide to go for it make sure you have a gun on hand so you can blow your brains out once the 'plot' gets underway.
MGS3 should not be played in its original vanilla iteration, as the lack of radar and visual scope is ludicrously poor design, TV- through-the-window inducing. If you don't mind several hours of cutscenes interrupting your ten minutes of sequentially broken down gaming, then MGS3: Subsistence will serve you a little better.

MGS4 is the Halo of the series - anyone can play.

[neorichieb1971]

I liked the first 2 MGS games. Although with 3 and 4 I realized there is only a little bit of gameplay actually controlled by the player. It usually involves getting from point A to B without being seen and then watching another 30 minute movie.

[kernow]

MGS3 is great, I loved the boss fights. All the games in the series are great, excluding portable ones etc.

[BIL]

Spiritual sequels have served me a lot better than most actual sequels. Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta, God Hand and Vanquish are far truer followups to Devil May Cry than its brainless first sequel and the subsequent two THPS crossovers. I'm guessing the X-TREEEEME "Dante becomes a junkie and slowly dies of AIDS" outsource effort isn't going to change this.

The only modern series I've enjoyed as such was Silent Hill, and even though I love them, the third and fourth KCET efforts failed to capitalise on the huge potential for an anthology series opened up by SH2. None of the subsequent outsourced sequels justify themselves, and a couple make me actively wish the series had ended gracefully seven years ago.

edit: Resident Evil 4 should've been the start of a new series. Swiftly smothered by RE5 and its reinstating of "RE CANON, UMBRELLA IS BAD." edit 2: I do like that it offended people with "DAT RACISM," though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

All radio chat and cutscenes in MGS3 are skippable. There's no reason whatsoever to put up with them if you don't like them. The playable content is always available right away.

[evil_ash_xero]

MGS3 actually has a lot of gameplay. Fastforwarding the cutscenes and codec calls, the game still takes me over 10 hours. I've beaten the game about 3 times, and I haven't gotten any better.

[neorichieb1971]

I only played MGS3 to the first boss. It was badly designed from the get go. With no radar it made it impossible to see where your going at the same time as wondering the position of your foe. I just didn't enjoy it at all.

For RE's.

1,2,3 were great. CV was okay for its time but has the worst back tracking record of any single game I've ever played. Almost everything you pick up requires navigating to the other side of the game. Not to mention your inventory spaces are limited. I liked the game bar these simple things though. Part 4 was silly, but very enjoyable (Albeit not like its predecessors). Part 5 was an abomination of a game. The controls were below par for its time (they actually work well on GC pads but not so well on Dualshock) and the whole Wesker thing was getting REALLY old by now.

[Zaarock]

Part 5 was an abomination of a game.

True for the main game, but if you can find it cheap, the game is worth buying for the mercenaries mode which is great fun to play for score, especially with two players. Has nothing to do with the horror game nature of the series though.