Scanline Generator T-SLG

[RosserRooster]

Hey just informing everyone of a new option for a Scanline Generator






attached is a thread from SRK with details of the project
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?th ... un.145407/
http://godlikecontrols.com/

[StarCreator]

There's been a decent amount of discussion about this in the SLG3000 thread.

[RosserRooster]

There's been a decent amount of discussion about this in the SLG3000 thread.

I'm aware

[Fudoh]

Do you happen to know if your T-SLG can work with the HDFury 2's VGA output ? The SLG3000 is not compatible with the HDF2's sync polarity configuration.

[Elixir]

I'm aware

So the entire purpose of this thread is to advertise? Got it.

[RosserRooster]

I'm aware

So the entire purpose of this thread is to advertise? Got it.

not really to advertise just putting information out there options make everything better for everyone No hard sales here

[toodles]

Do you happen to know if your T-SLG can work with the HDFury 2's VGA output ? The SLG3000 is not compatible with the HDF2's sync polarity configuration.

I don't know, but mine uses a D flipfop on the HSync lines just like the SLG3000 does, so there is a good chance it won't.
Do you have any information on what the waveforms from the HDFury 2 looks like? If I can get an idea of what it looks like, I can give you a definitive answer and possibly come up with a fix.

EDIT: Hmm, so the scanlines get alternated each time.....interesting. Heh, you know, there is a chance mine would work out of the box, and an even better chance that I could make it work. If you have any info on the waveform from the HD Fury 2, that would help, but I will try to hunt one down and get you a definite answer.

[Fudoh]

Unfortunately I don't know what the HDF2 does differently from the original HD Fury. The HDF1 and the 3 work fine, but for some reason the 2 doesn not. Using the dip switches on the SLG3000 doesn't help either. Not a big problem, but if have the chance to check into it, the T-SLG would indeed be an alternative for HDF2 users (which should mainly be PS3 users).

[toodles]

The description of the problem to my understanding is that with the SLG3000, the each horizontal line is in the same spot on the TV each frame (no image jitter), but the lines that get dimmed alternate each frame. If that's the case, then I'm very confident mine will work fine without that problem. What I'm guessing from that information is that the flip flop isn't resetting each frame like it should be, and the odd number of hsyncs seen per frame is making it alternate which set of lines is dimmed. Mine gets reset each frame so an odd number of HSync pulses wouldn't phase it.

But of course, I'd need to test to know for sure. Im currently hunting for one in the US, and will definitely post up when I get a firm answer from one. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[SGGG2]

So the entire purpose of this thread is to advertise? Got it.

The world's big enough for two (or more) scanline generators.

Toodles, I have a Fury2. Check your PM's.

[StarCreator]

toodles, while you're looking here, and since I don't really post on SRK, I thought I'd address one thing the SRK thread states makes your design "better":

- SLG3000 uses two female VGA connectors. Mine uses one male and one female. This one may not make much sense as a plus until you start thinking about what all it will be plugged into. Dreamcast VGA boxes have female VGA connectors on them. The common and cheap RGB->VGA boards used by retro game fans have female VGA connectors on them. If you want to plug in the SLG3000 to them, you have to shell out for either a large VGA cable, or a large size gender changer that they'll happily sell you for another 5 EU ($6.76). Can you use the tiny gender changers like this:
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k89/r ... SMQ_12.jpg
Nope. Those gender changers flip the plug upside down; your SLG would have to be upside down on the table in order to work! None of this is a problem with mine; just plug it in directly to your VGA box or RGB->VGA converter. Everything is right side up, without requiring additional parts.
Got a cable type connector like for an Xbox360 VGA cable? With an SLG3000, you'd plug the cable into the SLG3000, and plug a VGA cable into the other end. With mine, you can skip the VGA cable entirely; just plug the Xbox360 cable into the T-SLG, and the other end of the T-SLG directly to your monitor. If you want to use a VGA cable, no problem, just use one of tiny gender changers shown above.

The original design for the SLG3000 actually used one male and one female connector, just like yours. Fudoh and others convinced them to change it for the production model with the intent to have the SLG always be attached via cables on both ends, to eliminate the chance of causing port stress by having a PCB directly hanging off a monitor or other device. Honestly, I don't know why anyone would advocate hanging a PCB from a port that is designed only to accomodate the weight of a simple cable.

[toodles]

toodles, while you're looking here, and since I don't really post on SRK, I thought I'd address one thing the SRK thread states makes your design "better":
The original design for the SLG3000 actually used one male and one female connector, just like yours. Fudoh and others convinced them to change it for the production model with the intent to have the SLG always be attached via cables on both ends, to eliminate the chance of causing port stress by having a PCB directly hanging off a monitor or other device. Honestly, I don't know why anyone would advocate hanging a PCB from a port that is designed only to accomodate the weight of a simple cable.

Noted, but I don't see the design changing. Any other suggestions?

[MKL]

Any other suggestions?

Independently adjustable pots isn't a good idea as you want the same amount of resistance on all three of course. Bencao's SLG is better in this respect.

[toodles]

Any other suggestions?

Independently adjustable pots isn't a good idea as you want the same amount of resistance on all three of course. Bencao's SLG is better in this respect.

- Finer scanline control. Adjustment of scanlines on an SLG3000 is done all at once. My adjustment shield allows control of the R, G, and B values individually for warmer or cooler scanlines.

- One knob, wait, scratch that, one metal pole for controlling the scanline brightness, versus three on mine. Knob isn't included.

On the other hand, you're good with part numbers MKL. Any single knob triple potentiometers or rheostats you'd recommend?

[StarCreator]

Noted, but I don't see the design changing. Any other suggestions?

Just making sure you knew what prompted the design. I still think it's a good idea, and reinforces its place as an inline accessory rather than a cable adapter.

Besides that, back when you were still starting work bencao made this comment:

Take care, it seems that he does shortens the RGB adjustment to GND without proper protection.

I won't pretend to know what he means, but is this something that still needs addressing?

[bencao74]

Great work on that PCB. Looks neat

I don't want to stress the price discussion. But since we have here in EU some laws against/for WEEE we have to pay fees for such products. Additionally taxes here a quite high. Since you`re here on private business you can offer great prices for sure. That`s life I guess, I don't want to risk anything of my personal stuff. ie. I'm looking forward to win the 20t scarp container. This is then the time to quit.

- SLG3000 is limited to 480 horizontal lines. Any higher and the scanline effect isn't noticable; the overall screen just appears darker. Flip the switch on mine to 'Wide' and you're set with visible scanlines even at 1920x1080.

Of course SLG is not limited to 480 lines. Sailor Sat made test with above 2000 lines. SLG works best with 480 lines because we want to emulate real active scanlines. SLG concept never was thougth as a video filter effect like your wide setting.
For just adding an arbitrary bunch of black lines I´ve made with srdwa the project SLG SCART. This project comes with scart in and out and with some (dimmed) black lines somewhere.

The description of the problem to my understanding is that with the SLG3000, the each horizontal line is in the same spot on the TV each frame (no image jitter), but the lines that get dimmed alternate each frame.

Naaah, SLG3000 works with VGA. Every horizontal line will be dimmed in the same way.

[Plasia]

I'll get mine in a few weeks (US to Aus zzz), let me know if you want me to run any specific tests and I'll try and accommodate.

[fagin]

The problem with the HDFURY2 output working effectively with the SLG is the sync polarity, plain and simple.

HDFURY or HDFURY gamer edition output the correct sync and work. HDFURY3 will output the correct sync if you change the dip sw setting on the HD3 to suit.

If this device relies on a specific polarity, the issue will be the same.

[MKL]

Any other suggestions?

Independently adjustable pots isn't a good idea as you want the same amount of resistance on all three of course. Bencao's SLG is better in this respect.

- Finer scanline control. Adjustment of scanlines on an SLG3000 is done all at once. My adjustment shield allows control of the R, G, and B values individually for warmer or cooler scanlines.

- One knob, wait, scratch that, one metal pole for controlling the scanline brightness, versus three on mine. Knob isn't included.

Sorry but I don't agree with that argument which is clearly a posteriori. Having separate pots that need to be adjusted independently isn't finer tuning but a complicated, tiresome and unnecessary adjustment procedure that delays the gaming experience. It's just the easier way for you to do it, in fact supergun builders use the same argument that is just as weak as the RGB signals are equivalent and need to be treated alike.

On the other hand, you're good with part numbers MKL. Any single knob triple potentiometers or rheostats you'd recommend?

Panel-mount 3-gang pots do exist but they're the kind that have solder eyelets for wires and aren't meant to be PC-mounted as the latter is done the same way as on bencao's SLG. See for instance the RGB input adjustment on an arcade monitor:



The adjustment shaft Bencao uses looks a bit goofy though (a hand-made job for sure) and not a proper one because the slots on his pots are meant to be adjusted with an external tool.

[bencao74]

The adjustment shaft Bencao uses looks a bit goofy though (a hand-made job for sure) and not a proper one because the slots on his pots are meant to be adjusted with an external tool.

indeed, Winnie and I spend ages for searching good combination of shafts and potis. We had to find potis with the correct resistor value paired with the correct size of holes plus good availability. Finally we end in hand crafted shafts.

[RosserRooster]

Besides that, back when you were still starting work bencao made this comment:

Take care, it seems that he does shortens the RGB adjustment to GND without proper protection.

I won't pretend to know what he means, but is this something that still needs addressing?

There are no issues with any of that there is no chance of this SLG causing any harm to any display. That comment really is unjustified and illogical

[cools]

Scanline wars!

(CRT ftw)

[RosserRooster]

Sorry but I don't agree with that argument which is clearly a posteriori. Having separate pots that need to be adjusted independently isn't finer tuning but a complicated, tiresome and unnecessary adjustment procedure that delays the gaming experience. It's just the easier way for you to do it, in fact supergun builders use the same argument that is just as weak as the RGB signals are equivalent and need to be treated alike.

It all comes down to cost this project was never meant to be something to crush the SLG 3000.It was started to be a cost effective method of adding scan lines without sacrificing quality. It may be that three separate pots is more complicated but it is a very cost effective method of doing the job. The premise of the project was always to keep cost down without sacrificing quality. It all started with mmmonkeys tutorial of adding cheap scan lines not bencao74 design. I understand mmmonkey may was influenced by bencao but this project was never meant to copy the slg3000.

I have yet to read anybody going around complaining about bencao copying any of Toodles game controller boards Cthulhu,Kitty and Chimp with his Dual strike and UPCB so I ask that everyone be respectful and not do it here. It has not been a real problem here on this thread but there have been some comments about so called copying on the SLG3000 thread in this forum

[bencao74]

There are no issues with any of that there is no chance of this SLG causing any harm to any display. That comment really is unjustified and illogical

Hehe, okay, you think connecting GND directly to RGB lines is good idea please tell me more or clear up the technical situation.

[bencao74]

I have yet to read anybody going around complaining about bencao copying any of Toodles game controller boards Cthulhu,Kitty and Chimp with his Dual strike and UPCB so I ask that everyone be respectful and not do it here. It has not been a real problem here on this thread but there have been some comments about so called copying on the SLG3000 thread in this forum

Ohh, boy, still not enough with your personal war against whomever? Focus on technical issues / topics.

[fagin]

There are no issues with any of that there is no chance of this SLG causing any harm to any display. That comment really is unjustified and illogical

Hehe, okay, you think connecting GND directly to RGB lines is good idea please tell me more or clear up the technical situation.

For the people that have no idea what this means... could you explain the implications of connecting GND to RGB lines?

[bencao74]

Sure,

due to the choice of components this circuit loosely speaking connects GND with RGB lines. So some protection is here a good idea.

From such a protection the output stage of a connected picture source would benefit. My concern is that not every device can deal with shortening GND to RGB on a long term, hence this shortening only last some useconds. We faced the same problem on SLG scart and added just a base load. From a optical point of view you will not aware adding a base load.

SLG3000 on the other hand does not need such a protection coz of choice of parts.

[Plasia]

Protection such as what? What components would you use to do this?

[bencao74]

there are several possibilities to do this. Personally I like the SLG3000 solution best using analogue components.

[fagin]

Sure,

due to the choice of components this circuit loosely speaking connects GND with RGB lines. So some protection is here a good idea.

From such a protection the output stage of a connected picture source would benefit. My concern is that not every device can deal with shortening GND to RGB on a long term, hence this shortening only last some useconds. We faced the same problem on SLG scart and added just a base load. From a optical point of view you will not aware adding a base load.

SLG3000 on the other hand does not need such a protection coz of choice of parts.

So are you saying that without "protection" you can cause issues with your target display?