Earthquake has hit Japan

[Skykid]

Wow, way to trivialize the death toll from the Hiroshima bomb.

How does comparing the amount of radioactive material released by the two with no other references to the latter do that, exactly?

What he said. What are you talking about Cyber?

[GaijinPunch]

http://www.economist.com/node/21536625

Check it out, apparently they've been employing folks from the burakumin class to clean up radioactive waste and paying them under the table with no heath insurance. effin' crazy!

I'd have to check but they are probably on NHS. It's not the same as doing work in teh America w/o health insurance.

[NTSC-J]

Wow, way to trivialize the death toll from the Hiroshima bomb.

How does comparing the amount of radioactive material released by the two with no other references to the latter do that, exactly?

What he said. What are you talking about Cyber?

I agree with Cyber, its both trivializing and misleading.

The Hiroshima bombing has become a sort of unit of measurement because it sounds ominous and catastrophic. Always when some volcano blows they go `the force of the eruption was equivalent to 1000 Hiroshimas!` Well, then why wasnt anyone killed. Its a cheap way to sell newspapers.

Was the Hiroshima bombing infamous for its high levels of caesium leakage? I dunno, and neither do most people who read that. Not to say that it isnt serious, but its cheap and alarmist.

[GaijinPunch]

Was the Hiroshima bombing infamous for its high levels of caesium leakage? I dunno, and neither do most people who read that. Not to say that it isnt serious, but its cheap and alarmist.

I remember it for the blast killing 100,000 people.

insurance

While this is dodgy, it's not illegal. If they are contractors, just like in any other free country, the employers are not required to offer healthcare.

[Skykid]

Was the Hiroshima bombing infamous for its high levels of caesium leakage?

It only matters if the example is relevant. Hiroshima is used so frequently as a reference because the magnitude of an atomic bomb is an easy way for the layman to draw a simple parallel. Unfortunately Japan happens to be the only country to suffer them, and the event is intrinsically linked to the place of detonation.

So yes, while a most distasteful and horrific happening, I don't see how using Hiroshima (bomb, Japan, radioactivity, fallout) as a scale of reference for current ceasium levels (nuclear meltdown, Japan, radioactivity, fallout) is in any way a 'trivialisation' of the tragedy: it just puts things in perspective.

You'd have to be a bit thin skinned to read it any other way.

[Elixir]

http://www.economist.com/node/21536625

Here's a scathing article on Tepco from the Economist. Check it out, apparently they've been employing folks from the burakumin class to clean up radioactive waste and paying them under the table with no heath insurance. effin' crazy! Japan needs to wake up and realize the severity of the situation. None of my Japanese friends or acquaintances are talking about this shit. I guess being slightly in denial is necessary to keep getting yourself up in the morning and going to work.

" One, who earns ¥15,000 ($190) a day clearing radioactive rubble at the plant, says he was given just half-an-hour of safety training. "

15,000 yen per day is pretty sweet. What are they complaining about, they have absolutely no educa--

Oh, they're risking their lives for it. On second thought...

[mesh control]

I'll do it, and I'm not joking.

[GaijinPunch]

Unfortunately Japan happens to be the only country to suffer them, and the event is intrinsically linked to the place of detonation.

Yes, it would be much better if many other places had suffered nuclear attacks so it would be easier to calculate in ones head the levels of radiation coming from a crippled reactor.

15,000 yen per day is pretty sweet.

If they're only working 10 hours per day, that's 1500 yen per hour. Probably working 12+ hours a day though.
Shit money.

[Ex-Cyber]

It only matters if the example is relevant.

Quite so.

Hiroshima is used so frequently as a reference because the magnitude of an atomic bomb is an easy way for the layman to draw a simple parallel.

This "simple parallel" isn't parallel; it's closer to orthogonal. The destruction caused by the Hiroshima bomb had pretty much fuck all to do with the amount of Cs-137 released.

So yes, while a most distasteful and horrific happening, I don't see how using Hiroshima (bomb, Japan, radioactivity, fallout) as a scale of reference for current ceasium levels (nuclear meltdown, Japan, radioactivity, fallout) is in any way a 'trivialisation' of the tragedy: it just puts things in perspective.

No, that's precisely the problem: it utterly fails to put things in perspective. Perspective involves seeing the big picture, which is not well served by reducing an atomic bomb to the amount of Cs-137 it released.

Anyway, I don't think it's genuinely offensive; it's just one more example of the media being stupid about the disaster in general.

[Friendly]

What is wrong with you? Should they rather compare the radiation leaked in Fukushima to nuclear test #832 in Nevada, ca. 1958?

Hiroshima was the first time nuclear radiation was released on a large scale by a man-made device ("Little Boy") in a non-test environment. It has become part of our collective memory. Of course this is relevant, and of course you can compare the ammount of radiation released on the two occasions.

Yay, common sense rules.

[moozooh]

I think you're missing Ex-Cyber's point. Saying "168 times more than the Hiroshima bomb" implies the effects (to be) experienced by people are deadlier or otherwise more dangerous than the bomb. While they will never be, because the vast majority of Hiroshima victims weren't killed by the radiation; most of them never had the chance to experience it at all, as they were dead within moments. That's how a title like that fails to put things into perspective.

[Ex-Cyber]

Yes, moozooh, that's the idea, though I wouldn't say that "the vast majority of Hiroshima victims weren't killed by the radiation". Many of them were killed by radiation, but at intensities high enough that they suffered severe radiation sickness.

Hiroshima was the first time nuclear radiation was released on a large scale by a man-made device ("Little Boy") in a non-test environment. It has become part of our collective memory. Of course this is relevant, and of course you can compare the ammount of radiation released on the two occasions.

Of course you can compare the amount of radiation released. However, that "168 times" compares only Cs-137 release, disregarding all other radiation from the bomb.

[moozooh]

I wouldn't say that "the vast majority of Hiroshima victims weren't killed by the radiation". Many of them were killed by radiation, but at intensities high enough that they suffered severe radiation sickness.

I meant it in the sense that at least half the victims (70k immediately + some tens of thousands within a day) died before radiation poisoning or other radiation-induced effects, such as cancer, had time to set in. Considering how dire the situation was there in the absence of... well, anything that could help, most of the injured people who died within the first few days most likely wouldn't have survive had there been no radiation poisoning, as they still had to deal with blood loss, sepsis, and whatnot. Here's an estimate from the US's survey on the effects of bombings:

A plausible estimate of the importance of the various causes of death would range as follows:

Flash burns, 20 to 30 percent.
Other injuries, 50 to 60 percent.
Radiation sickness, 15 to 20 percent.

It should be noted that, with residual radiation from the bombings and the current leakage scenario, people have (had) a choice whether to move further away from the source to avoid abnormal continuous exposure. I know I would.

[Skykid]

ARGH.

Hiroshima is used so frequently as a reference because the magnitude of an atomic bomb is an easy way for the layman to draw a simple parallel.

This "simple parallel" isn't parallel; it's closer to orthogonal. The destruction caused by the Hiroshima bomb had pretty much fuck all to do with the amount of Cs-137 released.

Skykid wrote: "for the Layman"

Unfortunately Japan happens to be the only country to suffer them, and the event is intrinsically linked to the place of detonation.

Yes, it would be much better if many other places had suffered nuclear attacks so it would be easier to calculate in ones head the levels of radiation coming from a crippled reactor.

Skykid wrote: "Unfortunately."

[BryanM]

If they're only working 10 hours per day, that's 1500 yen per hour. Probably working 12+ hours a day though.
Shit money.

We live in the USA, land where you're more likely to be accepted into Stanford than get a job at McDonald's. Pay double the minimum wage is a crazy dream few of us can aspire to; if the job required radiation exposure and some prostitution, they'd have no trouble filling the slots here.

(But yeah. I wouldn't even become a fruit picker for $19/hr due to pesticide exposure. There are some things no amount of money is really worth..)

[Ex-Cyber]

Skykid wrote: "for the Layman"

If they're writing for the layman, they should summarize the significance of the report instead of just plastering a ratio and an element name (one that most laypeople have probably never even heard of) in the headline.

[rancor]

Holy shit! That was a big one just now!! Waiting for the magnitude to come in.. You guys may be hearing about that one on the news..

Still shaking..

edit: wow. a 7.0 - No tsunami

[PC Engine Fan X!]

At the Hiroshima War Memorial Museum, I saw some actual concrete slabs that had shadows burned on the surface...when the atomic bomb went off, anybody walking on the sidewalks were instantly vaporized but their shadows still remained after the blast. Strange but true.

It was surreal to walk around the lone surviving building structure in Hiroshima after the atomic blast that had a security fence surrounding it. You could literally see the twisted metal rebar and some partial walls still standing even today.

Another earthquake, rancor? Yeah, we're still waiting for the "Big One" to happen within the next twenty to thirty years on the West Coast stateside.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[NTSC-J]

Holy shit! That was a big one just now!! Waiting for the magnitude to come in.. You guys may be hearing about that one on the news..

Still shaking..

edit: wow. a 7.0 - No tsunami

I went out to get some lunch and didn't feel it, but there was some stuff knocked over when I got back. The reports are saying it was just a shindo 4, but it measured a 7.0 magnitude? I guess because it was so deep.

[GaijinPunch]

I was outside too... didn't really feel it until someone called and told me. I believe it was 4 in Tokyo, 7 at the epicenter.

[greg]

Crap, I'd hope that Japan would've sorted this shit out by now. I'm moving there next week. Good thing it was far out to sea.

[dcharlie]

If they're only working 10 hours per day, that's 1500 yen per hour. Probably working 12+ hours a day though.
Shit money.

yup - you can work at a combini for 900 yen an hour or somewhere like Gyukaku for 1,100 yen an hour and have considerably less risk per the cash.

I was outside too... didn't really feel it until someone called and told me. I believe it was 4 in Tokyo, 7 at the epicenter.

i was in a restaurant in Shibuya - group of tourists next to us laughed the start off as "cars passing outside" - then it ramped up a bit and they went a sort of ashen white colour. When those start though my brain immediately starts getting ready for Plan A, B, C and D....

[burgerkingdiamond]

Holy shit! That was a big one just now!! Waiting for the magnitude to come in.. You guys may be hearing about that one on the news..

Still shaking..

edit: wow. a 7.0 - No tsunami

i left just in time. I hope everythings ok!

[GaijinPunch]

Crap, I'd hope that Japan would've sorted this shit out by now. I'm moving there next week. Good thing it was far out to sea.

Yeah... I think Parliament is voting on the No Earthquakes bill later this year, so you'll have to wait.

[drauch]

Crap, I'd hope that Japan would've sorted this shit out by now. I'm moving there next week. Good thing it was far out to sea.

Yeah... I think Parliament is voting on the No Earthquakes bill later this year, so you'll have to wait.

A+++++++

[DEL]

Some guy on Youtube posted:

The funny thing is, that even though there are no nuclear reactors online in Japan, there is no power shortage. The reason for it is, that Japan never needed nuclear reactors for energy. In fact, nobody needs them for energy. If there wouldn't be such a profitable market for uranium and weapon-plutonium (4 million USD per kg!), nobody would care shit about building nuclear power plants. NPPs are plutonium breeding facilities - sold to the public as power plants.
AlMayer1100 3 days ago

I remember watching the Windscale Disaster Doc, and they stated categorically that the reactor was purely for creating weapons grade Plutonium for the UK's nuclear bombs. The electricity generation was purely a 'front', a disguise.
So at 4 million USD per kg this still reeks of purely plutonium production.
The most toxic substance in the Universe (feel free to correct me), with a half life of 24,000yrs. 1 millionth of a gram if ingested will cause cancer within 20 years. I have not come across a source that suggests otherwise.

Oh and the Mayak Disaster, the one nobody knows about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbR00_W4gEo
4X the radionuclide release of Chernobyl (over a longer period).

[Ex-Cyber]

The most toxic substance in the Universe (feel free to correct me), with a half life of 24,000yrs. 1 millionth of a gram if ingested will cause cancer within 20 years. I have not come across a source that suggests otherwise.

See this paper, among others.

[beatsgo]

Oh and the Mayak Disaster, the one nobody knows about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbR00_W4gEo
4X the radionuclide release of Chernobyl (over a longer period).

Interesting video, surprised the news media in generally never mentioned this incident during the events taking place in Japan. I will forever have a second opinion about the nuclear power industry in general.

[ED-057]

The funny thing is, that even though there are no nuclear reactors online in Japan, there is no power shortage. The reason for it is, that Japan never needed nuclear reactors for energy. In fact, nobody needs them for energy. If there wouldn't be such a profitable market for uranium and weapon-plutonium (4 million USD per kg!), nobody would care shit about building nuclear power plants. NPPs are plutonium breeding facilities - sold to the public as power plants.

I would say every sentence in that comment is wrong.

[dcharlie]

I remember watching the Windscale Disaster Doc

My home town is extremely close to Sellafield (previously Windscale) and effects of the disaster are still in place.

Obviously i wasn't alive during the disaster - it was great having people to turn to to clarify what we should be on the look out for and what was/wasn't dangerous - it helped filter out all the OMG DEAD GET OUT NOW OMG panic.