College/Uni degrees: golden ticket or worthless paper?

[Skykid]

Split from here

Very interesting documentary on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

Quick overview of the documentary:

- Degrees are no longer a golden ticket to a large salary
- Debt figures are off the chart.
- College/Uni system is now primarily a business promoted through false stats and advertising
- Educational structure is archaic. There are no jobs left for thousands of new law, medical and science graduates to move into despite continuing pushing in those fields. Subjects need diversifying.
- Employment statistics for graduates are fudged. True stats show that non-college attendees who start in a low paid job earlier, are more likely to have moved up the ladder and be earning good wages by the time college students graduate: minus the debt.
- Unemployment figures for graduates is higher than its ever been.

Quick solutions:

The professors in the documentary (and other lecturers I've seen on the subject) damn the system for being out of date and corrupt. Students spend $100+ on a single textbook based around a fixed curriculum, even though the core information is available for free on the internet.

Suggestions are that the internet is developed as a new platform for education, where lectures and seminars can be attended online on a global scale, cutting down overheads, offering wider subject choice and speeding up the process.

[ryu]

maybe those kids could have higher chances of making carrier if they would have been taught self reflection in school.

[xbl0x180]

If you read the job listings, some of them require a uni degree, vocational certification(s), or both. When I graduated, I made real sure to apply only for jobs that require a science degree because it will cut down on the competition from people off the street. The employer/company I applied for after uni wouldn't even look at an application unless the degree was in physical or biological science. Once I was hired, they gave me a chance to take the needed microbio prerequisite during my 1-year probationary period and to become state registered in the following year. Now that California's unemployment rate has skyrocketted to 14%, the same job I applied for requires to have the uni science degree, all prereqs completed, AND [ideally] the state registration - or else they'll trash the application.

People often ask me what it takes to get the job I have and quickly become discouraged once I tell them. There's just no time and money to go back and do all that s***; they also seem to be turned off by the amount of math involved, which is strange since I really suck at math and I got by. Most of the regret I see comes from people who majored in liberal arts and non-science stuff, or at least not taking advantage of internship opportunities because they chose some poppycock "study abroad" program instead. The rest comes from people who over-extended themselves financially by buying too much s*** they really couldn't afford (including education in a private uni).

[mesh control]

I make $60k a year with just a high school diploma.
lulz
Although, the majority of positions where I work require a degree just to get a job consideration.


Right now I'm attending a local community college and taking online classes, while working 40+ hours a week (away from home from 3:30am to 6pm ). Most of my lessons consist of reading a chapter then finishing a quiz at the end of the chapter, with very little discussion available.

Discussions in highschool were my favorite parts of schooling. It took us off of the linear lesson plan structure and allowed us to branch off intellectually.

Anyways, the only reason I'm going to school is to learn. I want more and more knowledge, I want to know my world. Online schooling is not allowing me to prosper.


my sleep deprived 2cents.

[CMoon]

I've actually seen that documentary before and agree with a lot of the ideas. It's important to understand that a college degree is not a magic ticket, that the number of high paying jobs are becoming increasingly scarce and most people would be better off pursuing a trade. On the other hand, trade schools and apprenticeships have mostly gone the way of the dodo bird. Colleges should be adapting, but their very existence depends on thousands of new kids coming to their campus every year.

There is, IMO, an unhealthy push in the K-12 education system in the US toward college and nothing but college. The public school system in general has dropped vocational school in favor of a 'college-or-bust' attitude. Yet I doubt that more than 20% of the general public is academically oriented.

I can't say I totally side with this video, but I don't think college is the right thing for most people, and if you are going to college you should know exactly what you want to study and have a clear idea of what job that degree is going to get you. If you want to loiter around a campus for a year or two figuring out your goals, go to a community college and take a bunch of pre-requisite type classes.

I really did enjoy college though and felt it was a formative part of my life I'd never want to lose. Don't know how to put a dollar figure on that.

[antron]

science

a chemical engineer can make 6 figures out the door.

[dial911]

They are a golden ticket if you obtain a computer science/engineering degree (*raises hand) or a hard science degree that can actually PRODUCE or DEVELOP a tangible product.

There are too many business, HR, general arts majors in school. There are also too many people coasting through school and then expecting jobs to fall into their laps upon graduation. People that are serious about finding employment post graduation should seek out internships during their summer breaks (*raises hand) to gain invaluable experience. My comp sci graduating class was less than 70 students while business was > 1000. Every one of the comp sci majors was gainfully employed within 1.5 months of leaving school (school statistics).

Let's be honest, you cannot realistically expect to repay student loans for a Yale general Arts degree unless you are within the top 5% (and even then maybe not..).

Edit: And no, I did not go to Yale

[Kasbe]

Most of the regret I see comes from people who majored in liberal arts and non-science stuff, or at least not taking advantage of internship opportunities because they chose some poppycock "study abroad" program instead.

Which are the vast majority of university students, by the way.

They are a golden ticket if you obtain a computer science/engineering degree (*raises hand) or a hard science degree that can actually PRODUCE or DEVELOP a tangible product.

There are too many business, HR, general arts majors in school. There are also too many people coasting through school and then expecting jobs to fall into their laps upon graduation. People that are serious about finding employment post graduation should seek out internships during their summer breaks (*raises hand) to gain invaluable experience. My comp sci graduating class was less than 70 students while business was > 1000. Every one of the comp sci majors was gainfully employed within 1.5 months of leaving school (school statistics).

Let's be honest, you cannot realistically expect to repay student loans for a Yale general Arts degree unless you are within the top 5% (and even then maybe not..).

Edit: And no, I did not go to Yale

Oh, I cant agree more. Everytime I read something like this I feel glad I'm studying an engineering degree . Here, some people get a job even before graduating.

[louisg]

I'm a comp sci major, and was hired before I'd even graduated. However, that was before the economy crunched, so I'm not sure what the experience of recent grads is. One thing I should point out about programming is that there is are many excellent programmers who do not hold degrees. I don't think most employers would give them a chance, though, so it's not a path I'd recommend!

I *have* known people who went into professions that have since pretty much died (journalism, alive in the 90s, dead in 2011). You never know what the future holds, and the world of engineering can turn on a dime. My father likes to talk about all of the unemployed aerospace engineers he knew, for example. That reminds me, I need to get on the web programming bandwagon one of these days (ugh)

Also, I find that mastering a natural language is not really a valued skill in this culture, and neither are analytical abilities which aren't tied to a science. I think a lot of people could move into fields other than the ones they majored in if employers saw a degree in less literal terms. Employers might also be shocked to learn how bad a lot of comp sci grads are at actual programming if they aren't doing it in their spare time

[Skykid]

All interesting. I'm guessing all you folk are US based?

There's always been a big difference in terms of the importance placed upon a degree in the UK compared to the US. In the US it's pretty much considered the natural order of things that degree = high paid job.
It's not a polar opposite in the UK, but the importance of the degree here seems to become less and less prominent with every passing year.
I don't think there is a general consensus here anymore that a degree is a prerequisite to getting good employment, even in this tough economical climate.

Personally I'm all for education, I always like to hear when people are leaving a job and getting educated. But I do dislike false expectations, especially when they've been impressed upon someone by an older generation.

I think the educational system (globally) needs a radical reform. Education should be malleable and play to the interests and strengths of the individual. At the moment the structure is rigid and frustrating, cramming heads with pointless information, a small percentage of which will ever be applied beyond an examination hurdle. It seems backward that a young person with a creative interest ends up being stifled and having that interest forced out by the system.

For example, if a 10 year old is obsessed with web design, and you give him the tools to learn how, he has the potential to be a master in 5 - 10 years. With that kind of ability well-paid job prospects can't be far behind, if the system would change and drop the whole pretense that a degree equals raw ability. That's bullshit.

I wish I had been allowed to play to my strengths in school, but they were complete fucktards about us following our own interests. Everything I know how to do of any value today is completely self-taught.

[Ruldra]

Over here a college degree is very important, it determines how much you get paid. Someone who doesn't have a degree get paid much less in comparison to someone who does the exactly same thing but have a degree.

[Skykid]

Over here a college degree is very important, it determines how much you get paid. Someone who doesn't have a degree get paid much less in comparison to someone who does the exactly same thing but have a degree.

I know the system. The documentary linked seeks to dispel the myth that there's any guarantee that it works anymore. It makes a very good argument too.

[Randorama]

My two cents on the matter. I Studied in Italy (BA), Germany as an exchange student, NL (Master), Australia (Ph.D.).

- I never paid Uni or high school taxes. I was my own family (single living on my own), for tax purposes, so I actually had right to a small unemployment salary, during my BA;
- I won a scholarship for my MA, and worked a little bit to have some financial buffer. As a single, my tax fees for the master were a whopping 100 euros per year (2 years);
- Always used library copies, used textbooks, torrentized .pdfs of handbooks, etc. In Germany and NL, several professors just gave us free papers/material;
- In Australia, I got paid, so no problems (but I had a few problems along the road);
- I may clean tables afterwards (I hope not, honestly), but at least I didn't spend much to do so;

I think that universities now are the last place where one should go, if one wants a proper education that can be worth a good salary. In certain fields, this is not the case because a student learns stuff that will be directly useful for the future job (engineering, CS, perhaps medicine, etc.).

In any other field, degrees appear to be completely disconnected with the "related" jobs, as if universities have no clue on what the "real world" is about. As an insider, I think that this is indeed the case. I taught at Psychology and Philosophy, and I sincerely have no clue on why most people took my course, although they did not want to have an academic career. Humanities as they are now, regardless of the country, serve one purpose: to pay salaries to a few recommended professors.

This is not a huge problem in countries such as Italy or, more in general, continental Europe. One can get a useless piece of paper with little money or debt. Uni taxes are relatively low. I think, though, that it is a huge problem if one forks five-digit amounts per year, as in anglophonic countries. It may be a crippling blow to one's life.

On top of that, some degrees are hugely overrated, especially by the influx of foreign students who think that they will have an easy time to migrate by e.g. doing an accounting degree in Australia, like everyone else. I do not doubt that accounting can be a useful degree, but if a company can choose among 400 degree holders for 2 positions, then nobody can expect that said company will be willing to offer good salaries. The company can pick a less demanding candidate, if necessary.

Personally, I think that all educational systems should be re-invented. Universities, by and at large, are stuck at 40 years ago. I don't think that market-driven policies would be wise: a degree is something that allows you to get a job AND be able to "update" your skills as your job evolves. Say, having a BA in Flash may land you a job today, and may make you completely useless when Flash will be obsolete, and you won't know how to learn anything else aside Flash.

I do agree that a person needs to have a decently broad education but, well, I got that in high school, and it was a public one. And, in general, public schools in Continental Europe, unlike Anglophonic countries, are good.

[Randorama]

I know the system. The documentary linked seeks to dispel the myth that there's any guarantee that it works anymore. It makes a very good argument too.

I understand that the documentary only talks about the US, though.

[CMoon]

And, in general, public schools in Continental Europe, unlike Anglophonic countries, are good.

I think Rando just insulted us, but I'm too stupid to understand

Has anyone here actually watched that documentary? I have, and even for the US I think it is very biased/skewed. As pointed out, if you actually know precisely what you are going for and the job opportunities accessed by said degree, college can be very good. The problem is students going in without a clear idea of they want, or a lofty belief that a bachelors in English is actually going to get them a high paying job.

[Skykid]

I know the system. The documentary linked seeks to dispel the myth that there's any guarantee that it works anymore. It makes a very good argument too.

I understand that the documentary only talks about the US, though.

Yes, it's US focussed, but the notions of re-inventing the educational system are universal.

[Randorama]

I think Rando just insulted us, but I'm too stupid to understand

By "public", I mean schools that do not charge fees (e.g. public vs. private health). The public (state- or regional-controlled) educational systems in Europe tend to be very good. Here in Australia kids will barely learn to read and write, unless parents fork tons of money to send them to exclusive places. I studied Calculus, loads of Science, but also Latin and Philosophy too, in High School.

As pointed out, if you actually know precisely what you are going for and the job opportunities accessed by said degree, college can be very good. The problem is students going in without a clear idea of they want, or a lofty belief that a bachelors in English is actually going to get them a high paying job.

You point out an important thing: the delusion that getting a generic piece of paper will make you win. The problem is that the system is, well, part of the problem, too. In general, uni systems may place a very big burden on students, when students have to plan their studies with the goal of getting a job.

Example: I have friends that with the equivalent of a BA in English have made brilliant careers, but they studied from day one with a specific plan in mind (say, work in the literature market). Nobody at Uni told them how to plan their studies, because nobody had a clue on how their matching "real life" job market worked. They had to be very careful on making their choices.

I also have friends who studied medicine and, say, specialized on cosmetic surgery. They got hired before completing their degree, as *everything* they had to use on work everything they studied. They just had to study first, and then apply their knowledge. Everything was planned for them.

I think that it would a first important step to reform pathological degrees, for once. But I doubt that such an approach would not be opposed, in a lot fields.

On the fly edit:

Yes, it's US focussed, but the notions of re-inventing the educational system are universal.

I agree with the idea of re-inventing education, although for the reasons which I (hopefully) have made clear above. On the specific merit of salaries. There are still several countries in which a degree is a pre-requisite for a higher salary. Ruldra mentions Brazil, I know of AUS and NZ too (Germany too, I think), the same holds in Italy and South Korea, in several fields, too.

[gct]

I haven't watched the documentary to which Skykid linked, but I plan to later today perhaps.

I like to imagine that the tuition that hordes of Arts undergraduates pay funds the university's basic operating costs so that graduate students can exist
I am only guessing about university cost structures, but I suspect undergraduates bring in revenue (alongside private philanthropic donations and research grants) while incurring little cost to look after, and graduates can cost the university quite a bit more to maintain.

What bugs me is frosh week and other hard partying stuff. I think it sends the wrong message about what education should be about. On the other hand, I can thank all the froshies who pay their tuitions and flunk out for funding my own education...

Now, what about college sports? This looks huge in the US and ironically bring more revenue and prestige than academics.

[brentsg]

It's not a golden ticket, nor is it worthless paper.

It's a ticket through the door. Once past that point, it's all on you.

[GaijinPunch]

It's not a golden ticket, nor is it worthless paper.

It's a ticket through the door. Once past that point, it's all on you.

Word. I was about to write this, in my typical 1-line fashion. Uni degree proves you have the capacity to learn. I know I'm weird in that I've spent almost all of my professional career abroad, but I was only asked once about my University studies. All employers ever give a shit about is what have I accomplished at my current position.

[xbl0x180]

My employer asked if I had the degree. I listed it in my application. I then had to pay more than 400 bucks for a transcript verification service to go through my college transcripts with a fine-tooth comb to check for the required bio, chem, physics, and math classes. It's crazy and sounded like a scam, but it's all legit and state-run. The cool thing is, they never gave a damn about GPA, just as long as I passed the required classes with a "C" or better. Yay-uh!

[ratikal]

I'm a Computer Science major. My friend in the same year (sophomore now) was able to get a job at EMC from his father. The coding he used was completely different than what we are learning in college, and he had to learn it all on the job. He made about $18/hr which he tells me is considered "cheap labor" for EMC.

Another friend of mine has another friend in some company that uses code for Ruby on Rails. No college or anything. He's makng a good sum of money.

The main point I'm trying to make is why even bother go to college if you just learn majority of the stuff you are going need in the job ON the job? Or hell, why not just learn it yourself? As long as you have a connection, you might be able to get your way through.

Don't get me wrong, I really love attending my University (supposedly University's are better than Colleges so says another friend, so people feel the need to state their at a "superior" institute of learning), it's a great social experience. Another thing is that I won't be in debt (I love you Mommy!), but all the things that I have pointed out here still remain true. Why bother if you (or someone else) is paying up the ass for a good social experience if what you really need to get a job is connections and a determination to learn the stuff needed in the job?

[dcharlie]

Code: Select all

Word. I was about to write this, in my typical 1-line fashion. Uni degree proves you have the capacity to learn. I know I'm weird in that I've spent almost all of my professional career abroad, but I was only asked once about my University studies. All employers ever give a shit about is what have I accomplished at my current position

this.

Interestingly, my wife did not go to university and instead worked through various other rolls she knew would get her up the ladder : bilingual bank work, work at the UN as a translator, then switched into IT with a couple of companies before switching into finance.

She sits 3 desks away from me at our company and is , like me, an Officer level employee. So she managed to get the same level without the degree but utlimately her apparent skills didn't need her to have the piece of paper and , once through X years of -real- experience, employees will only care about what you achieved

In truth, her pre-current role CV looks pretty great - just no degree behind it. I guess it's just what you do with your time once you leave education.

[GaijinPunch]

My employer asked if I had the degree. I listed it in my application. I then had to pay more than 400 bucks for a transcript verification service to go through my college transcripts with a fine-tooth comb to check for the required bio, chem, physics, and math classes. It's crazy and sounded like a scam, but it's all legit and state-run. The cool thing is, they never gave a damn about GPA, just as long as I passed the required classes with a "C" or better. Yay-uh!

Why not just show them an original of your diploma?

The main point I'm trying to make is why even bother go to college if you just learn majority of the stuff you are going need in the job ON the job? Or hell, why not just learn it yourself? As long as you have a connection, you might be able to get your way through.

I have a Japanese degree (Liberal Arts) only, but I've been in technical fields for about 12 years now. I learned everything on the job. You still need the degree. Finish school. It is the best advice on this planet during the current age. You DO need it to get your ass in the door.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

There are some jobs out there without the need for higher schooling outside of an high school diploma with the full perks such as 401K benefits, full health insurance, union benefits, etc. but those are far and few. Not to mention with the high unemployment rate after the recession in these trying times regarding the current economy situation of the USA, some folks have given up trying to look for work after filling out numerous applications over a period of two years or more. They're fucked even if they have senority and higher managerial skills with real world experience or are overqualified than those just graduating fresh out of university or college. I've seen such thick stacks of filled out application forms on my boss' desk with some folks whom are overqualified quite easily trying to get their foot in the door applying for basic entry level jobs only to be turned down. Such desperate times indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[powersoul]

Over here, a paper of sorts is required for most of the good-paying jobs around. No one bothers to look at you if you don't possess that, even if you have experience. It's really kinda unfair to choose a person with degree over someone who has passion, talent and experience for the same job, and the degree holder, for more than half the time, don't get the job done well. I've seen this happen many times at my workplace: they headhunted some unknown grad from uni with high grades over a diploma holder who had almost 20 years in the industry for material planning, and only three weeks into the job, the uni grad got fired for poor performance (poor guy didn't even understand half the stuff he needs to do). They then tried to contact that diploma holder, only to find out a rival company has taken him in.

There was one incident though, over in the medical industry, that made it to the papers. An experiment report that was done by a diploma holder was actually rejected, because it was supposed to be done by someone with a degree. While I understand the complications for medical industry-related jobs, this still doesn't really make sense since the same diploma holder was doing the same job for the past six years AND had a graduate for an understudy at that point of time.

So in my honest opinion, it really depends where you are. Some places it is a golden ticket to the chocolate factory, some places is just flooded with them.

[xbl0x180]

My employer asked if I had the degree. I listed it in my application. I then had to pay more than 400 bucks for a transcript verification service to go through my college transcripts with a fine-tooth comb to check for the required bio, chem, physics, and math classes. It's crazy and sounded like a scam, but it's all legit and state-run. The cool thing is, they never gave a damn about GPA, just as long as I passed the required classes with a "C" or better. Yay-uh!

Why not just show them an original of your diploma?

Funny, they hire the people, but the state is the one who registers us, so everything has to go through the state, including the "transcript verification," which is a non-refundable 400+ dollars. Otherwise, you cannot do the job without the registration. I just wrote it off on my taxes back then as part of my job application process. Funnier, when I applied for the OC Sheriff Dept. to work in their forensics lab, they dished out a written biochem test on the spot... if you didn't hack it on the test, they wouldn't interview ye (and this job only paid 20/hr. back in 2006)

Edit: Oh, yeah, did I forget to mention I had to take a 3-hour standardised state exam covering material for the job? Pretty much all registrations and certifications require a state or agency exam (I've taken about three or four of them). In this case, I think it's the California Dept. of Public Health running this show, but sometimes it may be the California Waterworks Association or some other racket. Hahaha. It almost feels like the mob is behind all this s***

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

All you need is a lot of hard work and ambition.

[rapoon]

It's not a golden ticket, nor is it worthless paper.

It's a ticket through the door. Once past that point, it's all on you.

^^ This.


The decision on whether or not to attend College weighs heavily on wtf you want to do with your life. Law? Degree. Architecture? Degree. Engineering? Degree. Medicine? Degree. CFA? Degree. CPA? Degree. The list goes on. Although I believe apprenticeships in Law and Architecture still exist in a few states but you'll still need to take the state BAR or ARE....

I have degrees in IT and Finance. Due to the time period (02') I obtained my IT degree in, it was extremely difficult to find a job so I stayed in school 1 more year and pursued Finance. ~2 years ago, I quit my position as a CFA, took a 60% decrease in pay and pursued IT. IMO, in IT, certs are far more valuable than any degree. Although a degree + certs is the tits.

All you need is a lot of hard work and ambition.

This as well. You can squeeze your way into most fields without any formal education; however, substantial advancement will be more difficult without that paper.

My opinion based off my experience, in the states.

xbl0x180, why did you have to pay for that transcript verification?

There are some jobs out there without the need for higher schooling outside of an high school diploma with the full perks such as 401K benefits, full health insurance, union benefits, etc. but those are far and few. Not to mention with the high unemployment rate after the recession in these trying times regarding the current economy situation of the USA, some folks have given up trying to look for work after filling out numerous applications over a period of two years or more. They're fucked even if they have senority and higher managerial skills with real world experience or are overqualified than those just graduating fresh out of university or college. I've seen such thick stacks of filled out application forms on my boss' desk with some folks whom are overqualified quite easily trying to get their foot in the door applying for basic entry level jobs only to be turned down. Such desperate times indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

It's horrible man. I listen to NPR daily and they often report on the number of individuals right out of College who've been searching for work in their respective fields, working bullshit jobs and still living at home with the parents. Additionally, the number of "young adults" (25-35) who've lost their jobs, moved back in with the parents and collecting unemployment has greatly increased. A rep at the Texas Workforce Commission told me the avg unemployment beneficiary has been receiving benefits for 2 years.

[xbl0x180]

xbl0x180, why did you have to pay for that transcript verification?

For the same reason I had to pay for the state exams and registrations/certifications. It sucks, but it's the cost of doing biz.