Saturn pad hack. Advice needed

[guldberget]

I just treated myself to a Saturn to be able to play all those wonderful shmups that I´ve been eyeing for a couple of years. I have previously made a project box four-button stick (all in one row) and I´d like to padhack a Saturn pad to use it on the Saturn.

Now I need some input on which of the eight saturn pad action buttons I should wire into my stick? Are there some buttons that are used in similar ways eg. A= shot, B= bomb etc, on several games.

My first thought was to use the Saturn buttons A, B anc C for my corresponding stick buttons 1-3 (and I´m not sure about what fourth button to use), How would that fit into most games default settings? Also, is there a button config option available on most Saturn shmups?

Thanks in advance.

[antron]

Some shmups use R for autofire, I would use it.

Most allow remaping, but some don't (batsugun, rayforce iirc)

[StarCreator]

I shudder at the prospect of one of the few remaining Saturn pads disassembled to be used as parts. Is there a way to create Saturn-compatible output without sacrificing a controller?

[antron]

anyone know a third party controller that is common ground?

I know the Super Pad isn't
I also know the official 3D one isn't.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I shudder at the prospect of one of the few remaining Saturn pads disassembled to be used as parts. Is there a way to create Saturn-compatible output without sacrificing a controller?

are they that rare? just hack up one of the 1st gen US pads. They suck compare to the 2nd gen US / Jap pads.

[Ex-Cyber]

I shudder at the prospect of one of the few remaining Saturn pads disassembled to be used as parts. Is there a way to create Saturn-compatible output without sacrificing a controller?

The standard pad signals are pretty easy to deal with if you can get a connector. It's not passive like e.g. Neo-Geo, but it's just a couple of 74HC chips; it's basically the Genesis protocol with a second select signal to handle the extra buttons (instead of the timing/sequence hack used by the Genesis 6-button pad). See this page.

[Estebang]

I don't like the idea of destroying vintage hardware for pet projects. Get an official Saturn stick.

The cheapo stick released in America is actually quite good, if you don't mind the stiffness. It's got full turbo switches and a speed slider, and even some weird L/R buttons on the sides.

[guldberget]

Ok, this seems to be more controversial than I expected... I´m going to use one of the fat pads for this since the sides can be broken of and thus it will fit in a smaller project box. If I had unlimited space and money to spend on the Saturn I´d buy a Jap Virtua stick, but the facts are that A) I don´t and B) I think it´s fun to do these "pet projects". At some point everything will be considered vintage hardware so I really don´t see what makes a used fat SS pad so sacred as opposed to everything else that is modded (Vintage system RGB mods and region mods for example. Even the commonly pimped and modded madcatz fightsticks will become vintage one day and there are way fewer of them than there are saturn pads).

But now, back on topic. Thanks Antron. So are the "best" buttons to wire up A, B, C and R? I´ve tried searching for default SS controls for a few games but there is susprisingly little information to be found regarding this.

[grobda]

I went with ABC as 123 on my 3-button jamma'd saturn. afaik most arcade ports follow this setup. Got an autofire circuit so R isn't necessary.

If youre making a custom stick though why not put on all the buttons?

You can hack a pad without destroying it, solder to the PCB traces rather than the button pads... but its hardly like saturn pads are an endangered species.

[gct]

Indeed, Saturn pads are cheap and somewhat plentiful in some parts of the world. They would also be put to better use in a padhack stick adaptor rather than sitting unappreciated in somebody's storage or flea market.

Hack with no regrets!

Ex-Cyber raises an interesting point that the controller (minus the connector) can be built from scratch using readily available components. If you are feeling very shameless and don't have a source of Saturn pad connectors, you can actually hack your own standard connector such as some variety of D-sub onto the console itself, and build your own controllers using a matching standard connector.

[chempop]

"R" is necessary! Garegga, DDP need it to cycle through the options menus.

[guldberget]

"R" is necessary! Garegga, DDP need it to cycle through the options menus.

Thanks! I think that makes it A, B, C and R that I´ll wire.

I went with ABC as 123 on my 3-button jamma'd saturn. afaik most arcade ports follow this setup. Got an autofire circuit so R isn't necessary.

If youre making a custom stick though why not put on all the buttons?

Well, I have a VX for my 360 and a V3 for my PS3 and those are six button sticks that cover most of my other gaming needs. I converted a Tekken 6 stick to a four button project box stick becase I felt that the extra buttons were distracting when playing shmups. Also, this stick is a part of my Supergun masterplan that is long overdue Playing Neo Geo station on the PS3 with a four button stick feels really great for some reason.

[Estebang]

Did you even read what I wrote? You don't need a "Jap Virtua stick!" The American stick is perfectly fine!

[alamone]

Rather than gutting a pad for each console, I would just use a MC Cthulhu.
Then you could use your custom stick for whatever console you want,
PS1/PS2/PS3/DC/Saturn/PC Engine/SNES/NES/etc, as long as you have
the proper controller extension cable to sacrifice (most people typically
use a RJ45 connector as the intermediary connector).

[guldberget]

Did you even read what I wrote? You don't need a "Jap Virtua stick!" The American stick is perfectly fine!

Why so aggressive? I said that if I had unlimited money I´d buy a JP Virtua Stick (the one with a stock LS-56) and be done with it since it´s the best stick for the Saturn in my opinion. Maybe I should have clarified that more. My point though is why I should spend money on something that I don´t like eg. the US/EU virtua stick? You think it´s fine and I don´t. We just have different opinions on that.

Let´s just end that discussion right here, I think I´ve gotten the answers I needed. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Rather than gutting a pad for each console, I would just use a MC Cthulhu.
Then you could use your custom stick for whatever console you want,
PS1/PS2/PS3/DC/Saturn/PC Engine/SNES/NES/etc, as long as you have
the proper controller extension cable to sacrifice (most people typically
use a RJ45 connector as the intermediary connector).

Yes I know. But I already own a PS3/PC Cthulhu and getting a MC one is more expensive than getting a saturn pad to hack plus I´d have to get extra cables and do the whole RJ-45 thing. But thanks anyway.

[Estebang]

Nah, I'm just kidding, but you really would've been better off with some sort of official stick. The US Saturn stick looks and feels like nothing else I've ever used, so it has some unique appeal beyond pure functionality.

[guldberget]

Just to give a follow up on this. And yes, I´m prepared to receive hate

This is how the Saturn project box turned out. It wasn´t my best project box effort (case is way too big) but I wanted to use a case I already had. So I went with an iPod Touch case. Buttons mapped were A, B, C, X for the main buttons on the stick and L, R, Start for the three non-action buttons. All Saturn buttons have a connection though so If i decide to make a 6 or 8 button stick I can still use it.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And here is a family pic. A converted Tekken 6 stick with a DB25 cable, the Saturn project box and a PS3/PC Cthulhu project box. The Cthulhu sits in a iPod Nano case.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[burgerkingdiamond]

??? did you know that you can just get Toodles to send you the chip for the MC Cthulhu and switch it out?

I think it's only like $10. I did it about a year ago.

[guldberget]

??? did you know that you can just get Toodles to send you the chip for the MC Cthulhu and switch it out?

I think it's only like $10. I did it about a year ago.

I did not know that. But still, then I would have needed to buy a Saturn extension cable and all the equipment to make an RJ-45 connection. The PS3 and Saturn are the only Cthulhu compatible consoles I own so this way was cheaper in the end. But thanks for the tip for future endevours.

[gct]

I like how you cut the PCB. Well done.

About swapping ICs on a Cthulhu, I guess there isn't any PCB version with a ZIF socket? I don't like those standard sockets because I always end up somehow bending the IC leads when prying out the chip...

[mesmer]

anyone know a third party controller that is common ground?

I know the Super Pad isn't
I also know the official 3D one isn't.

Good to know about the super pad! I was about to order two of these. for hooking up to my cab.

Maybe I'll try some of these ebay ones, and TOFTT =)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ST-PRO-PAD-Cont ... 511wt_1053
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Saturn-Ecl ... _500wt_898
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-NAKI-POWER- ... 2195wt_754


So what would be the recommended layout for 6 buttons? I was planning on using the 6 face buttons, but all this talk of R is enlightening. If R is only used for menus in some games, I'll just route it to my test or service button under the CP.

[toodles]

I shudder at the prospect of one of the few remaining Saturn pads disassembled to be used as parts. Is there a way to create Saturn-compatible output without sacrificing a controller?

First off, major thumbs up. I cry a little when I see pad hacks of classic controllers, especially ones easy to recreate with a logic chip or two like NES, SNES, and Saturn. Six button Genesis though, *ugh* hack the pad.
Ex-Cyber's info and the info at GameSX is all entirely correct. If you, the OP, or anyone else need help recreating the Saturn stuff on stripboard or anything else, please let me know. Yes, the MC Cthulhu is a good option, but if you just want a dedicated Saturn interface, doing a Saturn is like $1.50 in parts and a Saturn extension cord.

[moh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQHGb7hp ... lVsaAV-zds

My saturn/ps2 joystick. In the vid I admit to sacrificing an official pad =[
I actually have a six button setup ABC XYZ i still leave out the shoulder buttons =P but I have them wired ( they just dangle in the box) , so I can switch them with whatever button whenever I feel like it. thats what I'd recommend doing =]

I would also HIGHLY advise against using the super pad. that thing is a piece of shit. I ordered two, and BOTH had non-functioning start buttons. Its a big problem with that controller, and im not the only one whos had it happen (so im not crazyyyy D: )

[guldberget]

I shudder at the prospect of one of the few remaining Saturn pads disassembled to be used as parts. Is there a way to create Saturn-compatible output without sacrificing a controller?

First off, major thumbs up. I cry a little when I see pad hacks of classic controllers, especially ones easy to recreate with a logic chip or two like NES, SNES, and Saturn. Six button Genesis though, *ugh* hack the pad.
Ex-Cyber's info and the info at GameSX is all entirely correct. If you, the OP, or anyone else need help recreating the Saturn stuff on stripboard or anything else, please let me know. Yes, the MC Cthulhu is a good option, but if you just want a dedicated Saturn interface, doing a Saturn is like $1.50 in parts and a Saturn extension cord.

Ok, I'll hijack my own thread. I appriciate that you're offering the service to create saturn interfaces but I'll have to point out, again, that this argument means NO region modding of consoles, no 50/60 hz mods, no RGB mods and also telling the folks over at SRK that they shouldn't hack psx controllers to get big time compatability with adapters for their sticks. All hardware, not just controllers, will become vintage at one point so we all better start preserving everything, right? Making a saturn interface may be cheap but it takes more time and knowledge than hacking a contoller. I chose to use this time for other things in life since that suited me better. And I don' t regret it for one second

[mesmer]

Hmm, there are some saturn extension cables on ebay for about $6. I could probably get those ICs at frys, and I have plenty of resistors, protoboard, and solder. I might go that way instead of gambling on weather a 3rd party pad is common ground.

Soldering a bunch of pull-up resistors sounds tedious, but scraping & soldering to a pad sounds worse.

Now, to decide on the 6-button layout!

[moh]

Hmm, there are some saturn extension cables on ebay for about $6. I could probably get those ICs at frys, and I have plenty of resistors, protoboard, and solder. I might go that way instead of gambling on weather a 3rd party pad is common ground.

Soldering a bunch of pull-up resistors sounds tedious, but scraping & soldering to a pad sounds worse.

Now, to decide on the 6-button layout!

you dont have to scrape saturn pads if its the first gen one...'

[toodles]

Ok, I'll hijack my own thread. I appriciate that you're offering the service to create saturn interfaces but I'll have to point out, again, that this argument means NO region modding of consoles, no 50/60 hz mods, no RGB mods and also telling the folks over at SRK that they shouldn't hack psx controllers to get big time compatability with adapters for their sticks. All hardware, not just controllers, will become vintage at one point so we all better start preserving everything, right? Making a saturn interface may be cheap but it takes more time and knowledge than hacking a contoller. I chose to use this time for other things in life since that suited me better. And I don' t regret it for one second

You seem to be defensive; I apologize if I offended you, I definitely did not mean to if I did.
The bottom line is, your stuff is yours and I have no right to tell you what to do with it, and I do not think less of you or anyone else that needs to do a padhack.

Does this same mindset mean no region modding, 50/50 hz mods, or RGB mods? Absolutely not, I am all for those things, and in each of those cases, the console is still perfectly usable and has all of the original functionality. In many of those cases, the mod is even fairly easy to reverse. If you're looking for a console based equivalent to what I mean, the best I can think of right now is the harvesting of the laser from Xbox360 HD-DVD units. Lasers are easily available from other sources, but since many are bought just to be scavenged and tossed, there are fewer and fewer of those units available, which is a loss to our history. Sure, HD-DVD units may be fairly useless, but I guarantee you there are folks who cling to the format like the old Beta video tapes, and their players will be fewer and fewer over time.
(RGB modded NES units would be another very good example of a destructive mod, causing the loss of a VS. or Playchoice board. Sadly, there is not any other alternative to replace the PPU, so while I may cry a little at the loss of the arcade board, it is not an example of one that has alternative, non-destructive options.)

Does this same mindset mean no padhacking of PSX pads? Well, kinda. To me, it's half way between 'There is no alternative' and 'there is a alternative'. There are few options available right now to take the place of a hacked PSX pad, and all of those are far more expensive than your standard pawn store gamepad. If/when someone provides a super cheap alternative that has the same performance as a hacked pad, I will absolutely feel that hacking PSX pads is a wasteful technique.

NES, SNES, 3 button Geny, and (digital) Saturn pads are all WAY easily replicated with common off the shelf parts and enough knowledge to know which end of a soldering iron to hold. The costs of doing this are equal to or less than the cost of purchasing a used pad. The performance is identical or better than (chips use far less current and react faster than their ancestors) hacking a pad and the end result should even be easier to use in your project. And to top it off, these classic, tried and true pads can continue to live for those of us who love the feel of those pads. All in all, I see no benefit to anyone in pad hacking these.

At the end of the day, your hardware is yours to do with as you please, and my opinions shouldn't factor into your decisions. But when the topic comes up, I will continue to recommend not padhacking those classics for all of the reasons given above. I hope those that read it will factor those reasons into their own decisions.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Ok, I'll hijack my own thread. I appriciate that you're offering the service to create saturn interfaces but I'll have to point out, again, that this argument means NO region modding of consoles, no 50/60 hz mods, no RGB mods and also telling the folks over at SRK that they shouldn't hack psx controllers to get big time compatability with adapters for their sticks. All hardware, not just controllers, will become vintage at one point so we all better start preserving everything, right? Making a saturn interface may be cheap but it takes more time and knowledge than hacking a contoller. I chose to use this time for other things in life since that suited me better. And I don' t regret it for one second

You seem to be defensive; I apologize if I offended you, I definitely did not mean to if I did.
The bottom line is, your stuff is yours and I have no right to tell you what to do with it, and I do not think less of you or anyone else that needs to do a padhack.

Does this same mindset mean no region modding, 50/50 hz mods, or RGB mods? Absolutely not, I am all for those things, and in each of those cases, the console is still perfectly usable and has all of the original functionality. In many of those cases, the mod is even fairly easy to reverse. If you're looking for a console based equivalent to what I mean, the best I can think of right now is the harvesting of the laser from Xbox360 HD-DVD units. Lasers are easily available from other sources, but since many are bought just to be scavenged and tossed, there are fewer and fewer of those units available, which is a loss to our history. Sure, HD-DVD units may be fairly useless, but I guarantee you there are folks who cling to the format like the old Beta video tapes, and their players will be fewer and fewer over time.
(RGB modded NES units would be another very good example of a destructive mod, causing the loss of a VS. or Playchoice board. Sadly, there is not any other alternative to replace the PPU, so while I may cry a little at the loss of the arcade board, it is not an example of one that has alternative, non-destructive options.)

Does this same mindset mean no padhacking of PSX pads? Well, kinda. To me, it's half way between 'There is no alternative' and 'there is a alternative'. There are few options available right now to take the place of a hacked PSX pad, and all of those are far more expensive than your standard pawn store gamepad. If/when someone provides a super cheap alternative that has the same performance as a hacked pad, I will absolutely feel that hacking PSX pads is a wasteful technique.

NES, SNES, 3 button Geny, and (digital) Saturn pads are all WAY easily replicated with common off the shelf parts and enough knowledge to know which end of a soldering iron to hold. The costs of doing this are equal to or less than the cost of purchasing a used pad. The performance is identical or better than (chips use far less current and react faster than their ancestors) hacking a pad and the end result should even be easier to use in your project. And to top it off, these classic, tried and true pads can continue to live for those of us who love the feel of those pads. All in all, I see no benefit to anyone in pad hacking these.

At the end of the day, your hardware is yours to do with as you please, and my opinions shouldn't factor into your decisions. But when the topic comes up, I will continue to recommend not padhacking those classics for all of the reasons given above. I hope those that read it will factor those reasons into their own decisions.

I knew that NES controllers could be made using an off the chelf IC and some resistors, but I didn't know you could do the same for Saturn and 3 button Genesis pads. Is it pretty much that same idea for the Sega stuff?

[toodles]

I knew that NES controllers could be made using an off the chelf IC and some resistors, but I didn't know you could do the same for Saturn and 3 button Genesis pads. Is it pretty much that same idea for the Sega stuff?

For those controller protocols, yes. GameSX has good data for all of those; if you can't find a schematic, let me know and I'll either find one or make one. You can also easily do PC-Engine/TurboGrafx controllers and even 3DO pads that way, but I dont know about the Flying Nightmares flight stick. Aminga CD32 (Is that right?) is also doable IIRC. Analog Saturn, six button Geny, and PSX are a bit more complicated, would require either a BUNCH of different chips or a programmed CPLD or microcontroller, so for those your best bet is still padhacking unless you've got an electronics background.

[Ex-Cyber]

ISTR that there's 68HC11 (or thereabouts) code for the PS1 protocol floating around the net, though I think Freescale is making noises about discontinuing that family. Maybe someone's ported it to PIC or AVR by now.