Some General Qs About Shmups

[mrsmiley381]

For everyone suggesting the Saturn Action Replay, as good as it is, I think a region switch is much better. It's six soldered wires and a much lower price. Booting is faster and you won't wear out the memory card port with the slightly oversized third party cart.

Putting in a cart > opening your Saturn and soldering

Well, that's like, your opinion, man.

For people who like to preserve the working functions of their backup battery slot, skip out on that annoying Action Replay startup time, and save about twenty-five dollars, it may in fact be the better deal.

So your argument holds, but in sumbunall (some but not all) cases.

I'm going to suggest a Dreamcast yet again because of the lack of CAVE, out of some sort of strange sense of troll-spite. And because Zero Gunner 2 is pretty awesome. Just ignore everyone telling you to buy an Xbox 360 and do all of these crazy things. I suggest picking up whatever console you want that has the games that interest you most. You could possibly stick to only one console and still have all the fun you could ever imagine without ever exhausting the shmup library.

So, in short, bail out of this thread and go play some badass video games. Tate if possible, use something better than composite if you can.

[Deca]

Dreamcast is worth it just for Border Down IMO. Gunbird 2 and Mars Matrix are nice bonuses, as well as some of the sweet non-shmup games on the console. They're also pretty cheap last I checked. Border Down certainly isn't...but that may or may not be an issue for you

Still, if you're just looking to get into shooters I'd grab the Saturn first, preferably with Garegga. Oh and another note on tate while I'm thinking about it. A fair amount of vert games use an awful little fix to get higher resolutions in yoko, vertical waggle. The screen will scroll up and down as you move up and down, leaving a fair amount of stuff off-screen to shoot at you before you can even see it. Basically turns any game into Raiden

[racer445]

They both have some great shmups, but very different styles. The way I see it is if you're only interested in shooters, go with a Saturn; it just has more variation. If you want to play other genres on the system as well, go with a Dreamcast for sure as it's got a wider range in that respect. IMO just go down to your local flea market and see if you can score one of the systems in decent shape for cheap. The going rate around here for each is roughly $25 complete with two controllers and all cables.

What does "recycle" mean in this context?

It's basically where you take games that are otherwise in mediocre/poor condition and refurbish them. Generally it involves replacing cracked jewel cases, buffing discs, replacing yellowed cart backs etc. It can be rewarding knowing that your collection is nice and shiny.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I normally use those cables with the red, white and yellow plugs for my consoles. Also I'd have to experiment more but I've yet to see much point in 'tate modes (I have a CRT TV, but its a heavy 20-incher and not one I could easily put on its side).

I DO have a modded PSX, so that's taken care of.

If you don't see the point in TATE then just try it. And come on, a 20" CRT is not going to break your back.

[Casper<3]

They both have some great shmups, but very different styles. The way I see it is if you're only interested in shooters, go with a Saturn; it just has more variation. If you want to play other genres on the system as well, go with a Dreamcast for sure as it's got a wider range in that respect. IMO just go down to your local flea market and see if you can score one of the systems in decent shape for cheap. The going rate around here for each is roughly $25 complete with two controllers and all cables.

What does "recycle" mean in this context?

It's basically where you take games that are otherwise in mediocre/poor condition and refurbish them. Generally it involves replacing cracked jewel cases, buffing discs, replacing yellowed cart backs etc. It can be rewarding knowing that your collection is nice and shiny.

Not really, I can't speak for saturn but I know the going rate for dreamcast has jumped up to about 40$ w/the fixings.

[Kollision]

get both

[TransatlanticFoe]

Action Replay startup time is annoying on an early CD-based console? As issues go it's pretty minor! Most people won't want to get soldiering - so the Action Replay cart is mighty accessible. Maybe the "oversized third party cart" issue is US models only, because it's a comfy fit in my UK Saturn and I'm not sure how you'd wear out the slot... like you've got cause to remove it once it's in there.

The Saturn is easy to make region free (an Action Replay also gives you save file backup memory, for when the main battery needs replacing every 5-10 years) and has a tonne more shmups than the DC (or it certainly seems like it). Most can be taken for a spin in MAME first and crucially they tend to reside in the £10-30 bracket unless you go Garegga/Batsugun/Radiant Silvergun/random rare shit like Blast Wind. DC shmups aren't too cheap outside of Giga Wing, although they're dead easy to pirate (for a quick taster, of course...).

[Kollision]

I truly believe the Action Replay cart is a great choice for playing imports on the Saturn. Aside from that start screen where you must push the A button twice, there's absolutely no delay when loading or starting a game.
However, one of these carts died on me early this year. I bought another one and was once again happy.

As for the DC, a few years ago I did the mod myself so that I could play Japanese stuf. It works flawlessly ever since, and even the restarting hickups were gone after I did it. It's much better than using boot CDs.

[Gus]

Get a Saturn mod chip.

[sikraiken]

I was lazy and didn't even bother soldering the saturn mod chip. It works fine. Rip my JP games, change to US region, burn.

[stuntman]

...I've yet to see much point in 'tate modes (I have a CRT TV, but its a heavy 20-incher...

The first time I flipped a CRT on it side it was a 28-incher, and there was no going back. Try it with your lil' 20" and you'll understand

[racer445]

Not really, I can't speak for saturn but I know the going rate for dreamcast has jumped up to about 40$ w/the fixings.

I picked up a Saturn at my local flea market a couple weeks ago for $20 and have seen a few there before within the $20-30 range. The Dreamcasts I often see there are around $30-35 complete but loose. I'm just speaking from my local experience is all.

[Edmond Dantes]

I know somebody on another forum who actually sells modded Saturns, and if I were gonna get one I'd get one from him. Dunno where to go for Dreamcasts yet, but I'm sure one will turn up. Really what matters is "are there any games I want to play" and shmups aren't exactly the sole consideration--I'm also into fighters and non-zombie-themed survival horrors. Sometimes I like RPGs and puzzle games too.

Bought the two Taito Legends collections (PS2 versions) so that's more shmups for my library, but right now I don't feel up to exploring them (long day).

I'll experiment with tate mode, but on my TV (which isn't a widescreen) I don't think I'll notice much of a difference. My tv only does composite inputs by the way, but to be honest when I've seen S-Video etc. I've never really noticed a difference. Heck, I just barely notice the difference between it and an HD TV. As long as I can play the games, all is good.

[Captain Cat]

Composite is the devils spawn and any gamer with a minimum of quality sense should never use that shit.

If you can't see the difference then you haven't been paying attention or the stuff you were seeing it on wasn't set up properly. With analog connections cable quality matters. Trust me, I've used plenty of cheap ones through the years to know.

Reminds me of friends I had a hard time convincing to spend money on proper RGB cables for their PS2's back in the day. "I dun see no difference, hurr hurr" until the day they for some reason had to use composite and had a proper mind blowing moment where they all of a sudden couldn't see shit. And had to give the cat due respect.

Get tv that has S-VHS connection or if in Europe, a good Sony set. Get proper cables. Tate it! And enjoy your 303% improved gaming experience.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I did notice a bit of extra detail and sharpness when using Monster composite video cable on a TG-16 with an optional Turbo Booster A/V unit (compared to using the stock A/V cables that NEC supplied with a plain-vanilla stock TG-16 console setup). Sure, nothing compares to the glorious presentation that is RGB.

S-Video was around back in January of 1986 (i.e. the Commodore Amiga 1080 monitors had the seperated S-Video inputs setup) but one had to use seperate Luma and Chroma inputs to the get the better picture deal. It wasn't until the early 1990s that the TV monitor manufacturers decided to implement the newer single S-Video interface that's commonplace nowdays along with the introduction of the S-VHS based VCRs.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Obiwanshinobi]

The distance from signal source to the TV matters too. The closer console is to the TV, the better. Shouldn't make much difference with properly wired cables, but it's good to know about it.

[Deca]

I absolutely LOVE the Taito ps2 collections, I've always considered them the best compilation titles ever. I initially picked up 2 just because it had Metal Black on it, and ended up finding a copy of the first one after I saw how much fun my roommates and I were having playing everything else on them. Many evenings were spent on Taito games back in college :p

As for your TV not being widescreen, that's actually desireable. If you Tate a widescreen you just end up with black bars on the top and bottom or you stretch the image out and kill the aspect ratio. When you play yoko it chops off the sides to size it down so it can all fit on screen vertically. When you tate it just gives you the actual aspect ratio of the original arcade game, and allows you to use the entire viewing area. I know it doesn't look like it would make a huge difference when you just look at a 4:3 monitor and try to picture it rotated, but when you do it you'll be surprised how different it looks.

[Edmond Dantes]

I think I'm confused about terminology here. What are you guys calling "Composite" cables? As I said, I use these kinds of things (not that exact model or brand, but basically similar). I've always called them RCA Cables since that's what most search engines accept.

I kinda feel jypped by Taito Legends. I learned after buying them that what we in the USA got was basically a shuffling of Japan's Taito Memories compilations for the PS2, only the Memories release has like 30 games that the Legends compilations don't, including a few I was looking for. So what I'm mostly left with are two collections of arcade games I've never heard of and don't care about, some that were drastically improved by console ports, and about a million different versions of Space Invaders. Compilations like this make me wonder why I even bother and don't just stick to MAME.

I like Capcom's Classics Collections much better, but almost exclusively because they have Street Fighter II (as I said elsewhere, I hate Capcom's shmups... and most of their arcade games, actually. They seem designed around cheap deaths).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Capcom's shmups

Vulgus is the shit. Capcom Generations 3 is one of reasons to put your TV on its side.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I think I'm confused about terminology here. What are you guys calling "Composite" cables? As I said, I use these kinds of things (not that exact model or brand, but basically similar). I've always called them RCA Cables since that's what most search engines accept.

I like Capcom's Classics Collections much better, but almost exclusively because they have Street Fighter II (as I said elsewhere, I hate Capcom's shmups... and most of their arcade games, actually. They seem designed around cheap deaths).

The proper terminology would be listed as "RCA Composite Video" cable but some folks don't really feel like typing out that whole thing.

Yeah, those early Capcom arcade shmup PCBs were designed as pure "yen/quarter munchers" in the Japanese game centers/American arcades...a phrase meaning a type of arcade game that encouraged players to insert another coin to continue after suffering cheap-ass deaths due to sniper bullets from small fry enemies and/or end-stage bosses that pretty much describes the arcade scene back in those days (pertaining to the arcade shmup PCB titles, of course). This particular tactic/concept didn't work for the more skilled/ace arcade players though if he or she could get through the entire game on a single credit though. So by spending real money, it would force the player to quickly learn how to play the game properly and make each credit count as it should be (if the serious decision was made to attempt to master it as experience/insider knowledge was gained).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Edmond Dantes]

Well, good news: within days of being here I found someone selling the Image Fight/X-Multiply collection! So that's one of my goals met!

I have a few other shmup-related goals, but unfortunately this saps my budget for the month. Should I just write down what I want and hope somebody will be generous enough to hold them for me until next month?

[Deca]

How can you not be satisfied with at least Taito Legends 2? Metal Black, G Darius, Darius Gaiden, Cameltry and fuckin ELEVATOR ACTION RETURNS alone are worth more than what you paid for the collection, and isn't Mr. Do on of them? Try some of the games you haven't heard of, you may be surprised. My only complaints with the collection were a lack of tate for the vert games (a real shame considering they included Gun Frontier, Gekirindan and Grid Seeker) and no Rayforce.

Regarding the cables, Composite and Component video input are both achieved via RCA cables. Component separates the video signal out into its Red, Green, and Blue components individually while composite has a single video cable.

[Obiwanshinobi]

ELEVATOR ACTION RETURNS

Is broken, just the way it is on MAME - the light stays on even if you shoot the lamps.
The picture is upscaled and filtered, thus best thing to do with Taito Legends is to buy the PC version for the roms and play the games on MAME.
Taito Legends' biggest problem is not what it is, however, but what it should be but isn't. Emulation issues would be bearable if only the picture was raw 240p or so, with tate where needed.
By the way, Taito Memories compilations for the PS2 not only have tate, but also a fullscreen port (yup, it's not emulated) of RayForce (still upscaled and filtered).
In the end, people who don't play games on computers are the ones taking the hard seat.

[BIL]

By the way, Taito Memories compilations for the PS2 not only have tate, but also a fullscreen port (yup, it's not emulated) of RayForce (still upscaled and filtered).

Taito Memories 1 Joukan & Gekan don't have tate, sadly. Taito Memories 2 Joukan & Gekan both do, with an accurate emulation of Rayforce in the former (usual filtering issues apply - I'll take it over the prettier but inaccurate Saturn port any day). It's Raystorm that was given a genuine software port, along with G-Darius, since Taito couldn't get the PS2 to emulate them. These two ports appear on both the Japanese TM1 Gekan and western TL2 discs.

Metal Black supposedly has a control glitch in Taito Legends 2 stopping the bomb from being focused into a beam. Haven't seen this firsthand, but it doesn't happen in TM1 Joukan.

[chempop]

with an accurate emulation of Rayforce in the former (usual filtering issues apply - I'll take it over the prettier but inaccurate Saturn port any day).

Whoa, first I've heard about this. Care to elaborate on what's wrong with Layer Section on Saturn? It's one of my favorites but I've only played it on Saturn.

[xbl0x180]

I kinda feel jypped by Taito Legends. I learned after buying them that what we in the USA got was basically a shuffling of Japan's Taito Memories compilations for the PS2, only the Memories release has like 30 games that the Legends compilations don't, including a few I was looking for. So what I'm mostly left with are two collections of arcade games I've never heard of and don't care about, some that were drastically improved by console ports, and about a million different versions of Space Invaders. Compilations like this make me wonder why I even bother and don't just stick to MAME.

It's the same reason why I didn't buy them. I wanted the complete collection, but they only put out part of it. F*** taito for pulling that crap on us.

[professor ganson]

First thing I want to know, right now I'm trying to track down Arcade Gears: Image Fight and X-Multiply (I'll be hitting up the trading section once I'm done making this post) and I want to know, are there any differences at all between the Saturn and PS1 versions?

Only big difference I could tell is that you can reconfigure the buttons in the PS1 version.

And this is indeed a decisive advantage, to my mind. I found the Saturn version's button layout completely awkward. The PS1 version is the way to go if you can find a copy.

[Deca]

It's the same reason why I didn't buy them. I wanted the complete collection, but they only put out part of it. F*** taito for pulling that crap on us.

Well knowing this is pretty disappointing, but I can't say I ever felt like I was cheated having purchased the collections for 10 dollars or so new. Just because they made stupid decisions with the localization doesn't mean that's what there isn't worth what you paid for it, especially considering Legends goes for about 1/6 the price of Memories before shipping.

[BIL]

Whoa, first I've heard about this. Care to elaborate on what's wrong with Layer Section on Saturn? It's one of my favorites but I've only played it on Saturn.

LS/GA plays fine, but the extend requirement is locked at half the arcade version's. This may well also mess with the rank, since it's affected by the number of lives in stock, but I didn't test that out (if it doesn't, that's another pointless alteration).

Why they didn't just port over the default arcade rules when they nailed everything else baffles me.

[Deca]

LS/GA plays fine, but the extend rate is locked at half the arcade version's. This may well also mess with the rank, since it's affected by the number of lives in stock, but I didn't test that out (if it doesn't, that's another pointless alteration).

Why they didn't just port over the default arcade rules when they nailed everything else baffles me.

That's really weird...the only thing I'd heard about LS discrepancies were that the default difficulty is easier than the original, and you needed to set it on Hard1 or 2 for it to be accurate...can't remember which.