Some General Qs About Shmups

[Edmond Dantes]

Hey guys, new here and figured I'd start with a few questions.

First thing I want to know, right now I'm trying to track down Arcade Gears: Image Fight and X-Multiply (I'll be hitting up the trading section once I'm done making this post) and I want to know, are there any differences at all between the Saturn and PS1 versions?

I don't actually own a Saturn, which leads to my second question: if I become a hardcore shmupper should I invest in a Saturn and/or a Dreamcast?

Thirdly, lately I've even gone so far as to consider buying arcade PCBs. But if you have a PCB, how do you actually play it?

Fourthly, and this is something I actually asked elsewhere but I wanted to hear your side of it too: if I already have one arcade-perfect port of Image Fight and I'm going to wind up with another one (via the afformentioned compilation) then is there any reason whatsoever to pluck down money for the PC Engine version?

Thanks in advance!

[mrsmiley381]

The Saturn and Dreamcast are excellent consoles. They're my preferred shmup consoles. PCB's are playable via Supergun or an arcade cabinet. I can't say I know much about Image Fight and X-Multiply, though. A few seconds of Google didn't get me anywhere on that note, but Supergun knowledge is commonplace.

[Jeneki]

I don't actually own a Saturn, which leads to my second question: if I become a hardcore shmupper should I invest in a Saturn and/or a Dreamcast?

If there's enough games you want to buy then sure. What "enough" means is different for different people though. I use mine mostly for Batsugun, Battle Garegga, Guardian Force, and Sokyugurentai.

Although if you plan on using one primarily to play Japanese games, make sure you know how to play Japanese games on your console first. Or just buy a Japanese console to begin with.

[CIT]

First thing I want to know, right now I'm trying to track down Arcade Gears: Image Fight and X-Multiply (I'll be hitting up the trading section once I'm done making this post) and I want to know, are there any differences at all between the Saturn and PS1 versions?

Only big difference I could tell is that you can reconfigure the buttons in the PS1 version.

I don't actually own a Saturn, which leads to my second question: if I become a hardcore shmupper should I invest in a Saturn and/or a Dreamcast?

They're both good, but the Saturn has a bigger selection, more variety, and in my opinion the better games.

Thirdly, lately I've even gone so far as to consider buying arcade PCBs. But if you have a PCB, how do you actually play it?

Either in an arcade cabinet, or with a supergun, which lets you play them on a TV/monitor.

Fourthly, and this is something I actually asked elsewhere but I wanted to hear your side of it too: if I already have one arcade-perfect port of Image Fight and I'm going to wind up with another one (via the afformentioned compilation) then is there any reason whatsoever to pluck down money for the PC Engine version?

It's a good version of the game and generally really cheap, but doesn't really offer anything the arcade version doesn't. You should check out Image Fight II though, great game!

[burgerkingdiamond]

Yes. You will want to get yourself a Saturn. It has an amazing selection of 90's shmups. Many are playable in MAME, but Soukyougorentai, for example, (I know this is most likely mis-spelled) won't run well on my modest PC. So the Saturn version is preferred.

This:
http://www.amazon.com/Action-Replay-Plu ... B000HFAWLU

is all you need to play Jap games on a US Saturn. At my local used game store Saturns sell for $30, which is awesome for such a great system. Unfortunately the best games will be a little expensive.

Top games:
Batsugun
Radiant Silvergun (pricey)
Battle Garegga (less pricey than RSG, but still up there)
Dodonpachi (not very arcade accurate, but if you have no prior experience with it in MAME you won't know any better)

[chempop]

Hey, welcome aboard! Surprising to hear a request about such a rare and somewhat obscure title from a newcomer. I haven't been able to find a reasonable priced Saturn copy of Image Fight/X-Multiply for myself yet, good luck finding that one. As far as the whole console vs pcb debate, here are some questions you might want to ask yourself:

- Is budget an issue?
- Do you see yourself wanting to collect, or recycle games?
- Do you have space for arcade cabinet/s, and are you "settled down" or moving from apartment to apartment?
- Do you just way to play the games, or are projects involving arcade hardware appealing to you?

Depending on those answers we might be able to direct you in a more accurate way.

[Deca]

Best consoles to own for stgs are Saturn and Xbox 360. Preferably a japanese 360, but you can play plenty of great games on an american one due to a lot of stuff being regionless. For Saturn I would strongly encourage you to grab a japanese console, though if you want to play some american games I understand it's not overly difficult to install a region switch. Also you can get those combination memory card/action replay type things that allow you to boot out of region games (just make sure that you grab one that includes a ram expansion feature if you intend to play out of region games that require it. I think the only stg that needs it is Cotton...Boomerang?)

Saturn games to own are definitely Garegga and Batsugun. Souky is popular with a lot of people, I'm not crazy about it personally and don't want to have to move my saturn to another monitor or rotate my PVM to play it. I'm a big fan of Ray Force/Layer Section, and Kingdom Grand Prix is really interesting...there's a lot of good stuff on Saturn. Just avoid the DoDonPachi ports, or at least read up on them so you know what you're getting into before shelling out for them.

PCBs have already been covered, either a supergun or a cab. I'd personally say hold off until you can get a cab unless there's some stuff you REALLY want to play that isn't ported. I don't have a cab of my own yet, but I'm planning to snag a Batrider PCB and install it in the local arcade until I can afford one. If you know you intend to collect PCBs at some point don't be afraid to jump on a good deal while it's around!

Welcome to the world of shooters, hope you enjoy yourself!

[opt2not]

If you had to choose between the DC and Saturn, I'd definitely go with the Saturn.

I know this page hasn't been updated in a while, but the Shmup main page has a section on each console and what games are available for them:
http://www.shmups.com/xenocidefiles/saturn.html

Comparing the two systems, there are way more games for the Saturn.

[Edmond Dantes]

- Is budget an issue?

I normally have a $100 monthly budget on games, but for projects I'm dedicated to I'll save up for months.

- Do you see yourself wanting to collect, or recycle games?

What does "recycle" mean in this context?

If I bought an arcade PCB I'd likely want to hold onto it.

- Do you have space for arcade cabinet/s, and are you "settled down" or moving from apartment to apartment?

I'm doing a lot of moving lately.

- Do you just way to play the games, or are projects involving arcade hardware appealing to you?

For now, just play.

[Deca]

I would say your best bet for the moment would be to pick up a japanese Saturn and either Batsugun or Garegga depending on budget and whatnot, both of those games have a lot to keep you busy. I've been playing Garegga for years and still find it interesting, always learning new things

Take advantage of mame as well. If you're interested in honing skills it's an amazing tool with savestates and whatnot. There are a lot of great games that never received ports, and you'll probably want to give them a try on mame before shelling out for the pcb.

[Edmond Dantes]

Yeah, MAME is pretty much how I discovered X-Multiply.

I'll keep the recommendations in mind. Right now I've got a pretty decent shmup library to keep me busy. So far, my shmup collection consists of:

NES
----
1943 The Battle of Midway (childhood favorite, but don't really care much for it now)
Adventures of Dino Riki (hate this one)
Destination Earthstar (space sim, but every level ends with a shmup segment that actually did the "going further right speeds up the screen" thing before Armed Police Unit Gallop did it. I sorta have a soft spot for this one)
Dragon Spirit - The New Legend

Sega Genesis
-------------
Elemental Master (looking to sell/trade this one)
Sol-Deace (might ditch this one at a future point)
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Thunder Force IV ("Lightening Force" version, kinda want to get a JP version. All the TF games are favorites)

SNES
------
Gradius III

Turbo Duo/PC Engine
--------------------
Galago 90 (I think my copy might be glitched though...)
Gate of Thunder

Playstation 1
------------
R-Types
R-Type Delta
Thunder Force V Perfect System (US release)

Playstation 2
------------
Whatever the hell is included in Capcom Classics Collection volumes 1 and 2 (so far I haven't cared much for any Capcom shmups)

PSP
----
Gradius Collection

PC
---
Irem Arcade Hits (bought just to have legitimate copies of Gallop and R-Type Leo, stayed because I liked most of the other games on it, though admittedly they all play better in MAME)

And unless I missed something, that's pretty much the extent of my current shmup library. I used to own the TG16 port of Raiden and would like to do so again, but getting X-Multiply comes first.

[Zorator]

Regarding the arcade accuracy of Image Fight ports, IIRC the PS1 and Saturn ports are actually slightly easier than the arcade version with different enemy placements and little things like that. I've not spent much time with the arcade/MAME version(I NEED that dedicated pod shot button!) so I can't compare personally but perhaps someone else can elaborate. Although the shmups.com review blurbs says the ports can't display the whole screen area, this doesn't appear to be the case with the PS1 version of IF, however X-Multiply definitely doesn't display the whole screen. Other than the little balance tweaks I think it's otherwise completely accurate.

If your using any controller other than the console's native one, the PS1 version may be your best bet because of the button remapping option, and IMO there is no need to bother with the PCE port if you get the PS1/Saturn port unless you want to dick around with the secret ship. Saturn is still a worthy investment for all the other exclusive ports it has though.

[chempop]

I think a Saturn is a good idea. If you play non-shmups too then be sure to get a action replay cart for playing imports. The best joystick is Sega's Japanese Virtua Stick (HSS-0136), not to be confused with the cheap Euro and American Virtua Sticks flooded on eBay. If you aren't a joystick person (yet), no problem because the Saturns pad is great. Saturn looks great with S-video, and many of the best Vertical games will be much better with your TV set on it's side (Tate) - if you aren't familiar with this be sure to do the research so you don't break your TV.

As big of a fan of Battle Garegga and Batsugun I am, they aren't my first recommendations (both would cost around $150-200 total). Instead I'd go with some cheaper (but still excellent) titles first.

Something by Psikyo - Strikers 1945 or Gunbird
Darius Gaiden
Layer Section (aka Galactic Attack in US)
Soukyugurentai Otokoyu (includes a Battle Garegga demo)

Those all have a pretty big following and shouldn't cost more than $100-120 total. Saturn has plenty of high priced gems, but also lots of great cheaper options too.

By recycling I meant that once you beat or get tired of a game you'd sell it to fund your next purchase. A lot of people do with with the $500-1000 Cave pcb's.

[Deca]

I just recommend Batsugun or Garegga first because of the level of depth and how conducive they are to extended play. While I absolutely adore Layer Section, I find it harder to sit down with it and go at it for hours like I can with those two. Yeah they are more expensive, especially Garegga, but you're definitely going to get your moneys worth of play out of them. My copy of Garegga sees a lot more play than the rest of my Saturn collection combined, so the fact that you can get 4 games for the price of it doesn't necessarily balance out in my case. You'll know whether or not you like the game to get serious with it based on mame though, I wouldn't recommend dropping the 130-150 it goes for without trying it first as it seems to be a somewhat polarizing game.

Layer Section is definitely thoroughly recommended. I feel it's one of the most visually impressive 2D games to date, and unless I'm forgetting something big it's definitely Taito's best playing shooter (they're AMAZING with presentation but a lot of the time the gameplay just doesn't quite click, Metal Black and Ray Storm being some of the better examples of this, but everything came together fantastically here). Some of the parallax and scaling effects still blow my mind every time I see them, especially from stage 3 onward. You should be able to snag that one for under 30 dollars without too much trouble, if you're watching your funds and don't want to go too crazy all at once it would be my recommended game to grab along with the console.

[Casper<3]

Just buy a Saturn and Battle Garegga. Seriously, that game is better than anything else on the saturn or dreamcast. Best investment you can do.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Here's what you need a region-free (i.e. modded) PSX for. Region free because while some games are Japan-only, you might be better off getting US versions of some (Namco Museum and Thunder Force V come to mind). PSX because some games don't work properly on a PS2. The following list is all about games that are either not emulated properly, or/and don't have any other port/version worth playing:

Namco Museum 1-5 + Encore (you'll need an arcade stick to get the most out of these)
Raiden Project
Raiden DX
Zanac X Zanac (I cannot recommend Zanac Special Version enough, old as it looks and sounds)
R-Type Delta
Einhänder
Sonic Wings Special (to be fair, it's virtually just as good on the Saturn and might be slightly cheaper there; steer away from the PAL version)
Night Raid (just sayin').

You also need a CRT TV you can put on its side, preferably with RGB (SCART socket) or component input and cables carrying YPbPr or RGB signal from your SD consoles to the TV.

[Edmond Dantes]

You also need a CRT TV you can put on its side, preferably with RGB (SCART socket) or component input and cables carrying YPbPr or RGB signal from your SD consoles to the TV.

... Why do I need all this equipment for a simple ol' Playstation One?

[Klatrymadon]

That's not necessarily a lot of equipment at all, mate; a shitty old CRT television and a good RGB cable (for the relevant console) might be all you'll need. If you get a TV that you don't mind tossing around a bit, you'll have access to a lot of Playstation and Saturn ports of vertically-oriented shmups. Both versions of the Arcade Gears pack feature tate/vertical modes for Image Fight, by the way. Good to see a fellow apostle of both X-Multiply and The Count Of Monte Cristo around here!

(Apologies if already covered. Cannae see.)

[BulletMagnet]

If you want a rundown of most/all of the shooters available on a particular system, go to this page and scroll down a bit until you see the "shmups" section - take your pick.

[rancor]

Dont forget about the doujins!

Check the link in my sig for free and retail games.

/sales whore

[burgerkingdiamond]

Dont forget about the doujins!

Check the link in my sig for free and retail games.

/sales whore

Crimzon Clover

[mrsmiley381]

For everyone suggesting the Saturn Action Replay, as good as it is, I think a region switch is much better. It's six soldered wires and a much lower price. Booting is faster and you won't wear out the memory card port with the slightly oversized third party cart.

A modded PS1 is cool and all, but don't worry about SCART and shit. S-video is fine, composite is fine if you have no other options. People on here are sticklers for RGB video output, that's all. A TV you can rotate for vertical games, however, is recommended. Older consoles have a fixed video resolution for output, so black bars along the sides are actually wasted resolution, if I'm not mistaken.

You could also score any of Compile's games for old consoles and be set for a long time. Zanac, Gun Nac, and MUSHA could last you a while if they're your style of game.

[Edmond Dantes]

I normally use those cables with the red, white and yellow plugs for my consoles. Also I'd have to experiment more but I've yet to see much point in 'tate modes (I have a CRT TV, but its a heavy 20-incher and not one I could easily put on its side).

I DO have a modded PSX, so that's taken care of.

[Illyrian]

Bear in mind Battle Garegga and Dodonpachi, two of the best games to start with run perfectly well on MAME.

I personally think you're wasting your money buying anything other than an XBox 360 as MAME has the best dodonpachi port and runs Garegga without any lag. Also you can actually practice the game properly using save states/etc.

You'd be spending money on something you don't need to if you buy a saturn. You could just get a Xbox 360 in your own region and buy Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 which is region free. You could also get Espgaluda II.

[Deca]

Also I'd have to experiment more but I've yet to see much point in 'tate modes

I'm sure I'm not alone here in not being able to play verts at all without tate. Maybe on a huge HDTV, but then you probably have a bunch of other problems to deal with. When it's all squashed down for yoko it just looks blurry and awful and I have a very hard time processing what I'm looking at compared to tate.

[Never_Scurred]

For everyone suggesting the Saturn Action Replay, as good as it is, I think a region switch is much better. It's six soldered wires and a much lower price. Booting is faster and you won't wear out the memory card port with the slightly oversized third party cart.

Putting in a cart > opening your Saturn and soldering

[Never_Scurred]

Crimzon Clover

Over and over again.

[Zorator]

For me the importance of tate depends on the game. Image Fight, for example, is a game wherein tate is completely necessary, totally different experience without the proper resolution. Part of the reason why I suggested not bothering with the PCE version if you have access to the PS1/Saturn versions. Plus lets not forget that there is plenty of great games that are aren't vertically oriented, horizontally scrolling or otherwise.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Bear in mind Battle Garegga and Dodonpachi, two of the best games to start with run perfectly well on MAME.

Garegga has two frames of lag even on shmupmame. Don't know about Saturn port (or the actual PCB), but on MAME it's still pretty meh.

I normally use those cables with the red, white and yellow plugs for my consoles. Also I'd have to experiment more but I've yet to see much point in 'tate modes (I have a CRT TV, but its a heavy 20-incher and not one I could easily put on its side).

I DO have a modded PSX, so that's taken care of.

Composite input does not do these games justice at all. If you live in PAL territory, people around you are giving away old CRTs with SCART sockets (PAL TVs usually output 60 Hz just fine).

[chempop]

If you can't put a 20" on it's side than put down the controllers and pick up some weights.

I used 20" TVs for years and I always found vertical games pretty unplayable non-Tate. The resolution is crap, it isn't the same graphics, and in some cases enemies aren't even going to be on the screen when your fighting them... There is really no argument. I recently got a 24" and 27" to use in Tate and my scores when way up - it's just easier to play on a screen that isn't cramped. Bigger is not always better though because there is such thing as too big - you have to be able to see what's happening on the entire screen without shifting your focus too much.

S-video gives a significantly improved image over composite (Y/R/W). Clearer picture = better. Only set you back $10, assuming your TV has a S-video plug, if not just look on craigslist for a good flatscreen CRT, people give those away for dirt these days.