Japan & radioactive products!

[GaijinPunch]

Thanks for the useful info!
You wouldn't happen to know in what prefecture Canon produces their digital cameras like the one I linked?

Thanks in advance!

Shit... no idea. I hope it's not a bad one b/c I'm a devout Canon fan... gotta get a lens cleaned this week, as a matter of fact.

[Nick420]

Fukushima is far far worse than chernobyl, three reactors went into meltdown within hours of the tsunami hitting an there are 4 spent fuel pools contaminating the atmosphere. That's a total of 7 major nuclear accidents. And to the person who said most of the contamination went into the sea is hugely misinformed. And to top it off the vents which were designed to disperse the radioactive particles failed, leaving all the radiation at ground level. The only thing that was good about this major disaster was that the wind was mainly blowing out to sea. This was really a level 8 accident and will not only affect japan but the entire planet. If you do not believe what i say there is alot of info on Russia today and check out Arnie gundersons videos. Nuclear energy will be the down fall of the human race. This i am sure of....

[Ex-Cyber]

This was really a level 8 accident

INES ranks by the overall scope of the effect and breadth/length of mitigation/cleanup efforts needed. A level 7 accident has "widespread" effects and demands "planned" and "prolonged" countermeasures. What would level 8 be? Interplanetary effects with eternal countermeasures?

[Nick420]

This was really a level 8 accident

INES ranks by the overall scope of the effect and breadth/length of mitigation/cleanup efforts needed. A level 7 accident has "widespread" effects and demands "planned" and "prolonged" countermeasures. What would level 8 be? Interplanetary effects with eternal countermeasures?

Look Chernobyl was one reactor meltdown. This was 3 plus 4 fuel pools. There was talk of upping the scale over this disaster. I have read up on this event extensively. If you think Chernobyl was worse you are very wrong, it's as simple as that. Just because the Japanese government and tepco said the radiation was leaking slowly does not make it the truth. The earthquake cracked the shit out of the outer containment buildings and the hydrogen explosions destroyed the inner reactor containments, plus they were injecting water onto the reactors which was all getting contaminated and leaking through the cracks. This equals 3 total meltdowns all of which had access to the environment plus the fuel pools. Arnie labeled it "Chernobyl on steroids" watch his vids he's dealt with alot of nuclear accidents including long mile island.

Regarding your comment do you think the term widespread really describes a global effect?

[Skykid]

Fukushima is far far worse than chernobyl, three reactors went into meltdown within hours of the tsunami hitting an there are 4 spent fuel pools contaminating the atmosphere.

I heard the same stuff.

Apparently the Japanese government's lack of transparency has alarmed many, both domestic and anti-nuclear activists on foreign soil.

But we still don't know how dangerous Japan is in terms of radioactivity and abnormal levels. I haven't seen any concrete reports pinpointing that info. Anyone know?

[moozooh]

As mentioned on the previous page, there is lots of radioactivity monitoring data all over the web. You could, you know, search for a bit. Despite the so-called transparency issues, no nuclear crisis in history has seen such a huge amount of information gathered everywhere by experts and enthusiasts alike, and presented publicly, ever.

[GaijinPunch]

three reactors went into meltdown within hours of the tsunami hitting an there are 4 spent fuel pools contaminating the atmosphere. That's a total of 7 major nuclear accidents.

It's rated on how much radioactive material went into the atmosphere. At the current rate, it's "on par w/ Chernobyl". Doesn't matter if a million reactors went into meltdown. By and large, the majority of it did go into the ocean with Fukushima, where as close to zero happened in Chernobyl. To boot, the big scare now is not how much radiation is in the air. The levels do not lie, and there are plenty of people taking readings daily in areas all over the country. Tokyo and basically everywhere outside of the danger zones is well within safe limits -- lower than many other urban cities across the globe. The question is the food/soil and how strict the regulations are. This is where Chernobyl is generally considered to have failed by allowing tainted milk, amongst other things, into the general population. Not to mention lack of educating the public. I won't go and say Japan is rockin' the house on this front as it is something that history will tell (and it is apparently a painstaking process to get real measurements on food) but it's, thus far, not the quagmire that the Russians had 25 years ago.

This was really a level 8 accident and will not only affect japan but the entire planet. If you do not believe what i say there is alot of info on Russia today and check out Arnie gundersons videos.

Chernobyl affected the entire planet.

If you want to see some good debate which is usually more mature (and informed) than anything you'll find here, the Facebook group "Tokyo Radiation Levels" is very good. The guy taking the readings is an amateur, but an educated one. Other academics have chimed in. It's crazy how many publications (including entire books) have been based on poor facts and (hopefully) discredited. The sad thing is, Fukushima will go down in history as the same thing. People on the extreme of both sides of the issue will report their "findings" which will be based on all kinds of shit (some true, some false) they will publish, people will debate, and nobody will ever agree.

[dcharlie]

fortunately GaijinPunch has covered everything needed.

My father has worked in the nuclear industry for 40 years, so that was extremely handy for throwing a ton of questions at him.

And yes, right now the major worry is just what will get brushed aside in terms of food safety. There always appears to be some sort of scandal about this even without a nuclear incident to contend with.

[Nick420]

Yes i agree that only with time will we see the true extent of the damage and just how widespread the effects will be. This whole situation makes me uneasy, especially now that terrorists know just how easy it is to execute a successful attack on a nuclear power plant. I know this threat was always there however now they know the design of the reactors and that the spent fuel is I'n the cealing of the reactors.

The thing that really worries me Is that experts have been saying there's a massive earthquake and tsunami waiting to hit Japan along the south east coast. Nobody knows when it's gonna hit, just that it will. This said earthquake will be originating nearer to Tokyo. I feel bad for the Japanese people having to deal with that shit.

Thanks for the debate link, il be sure to check it out

Apologies for bad grammar etc, using iPhone to post.

[GaijinPunch]

This whole situation makes me uneasy, especially now that terrorists know just how easy it is to execute a successful attack on a nuclear power plant.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Just b/c God can do it doesn't mean terrorists can. Not easily, anyway.

The thing that really worries me Is that experts have been saying there's a massive earthquake and tsunami waiting to hit Japan along the south east coast. Nobody knows when it's gonna hit, just that it will. This said earthquake will be originating nearer to Tokyo. I feel bad for the Japanese people having to deal with that shit.

Not to be overly blatant, but take what you here with a grain of salt. Yes, Japan (Kanto, specifically) is overdue for a huge Earthquake. However, Earthquake detection is something we (ie, humans) are flat out awful at. If someone tells you they can detect an Earthquake, kick them in the cock. They are totally full of shit. Japan has the best early detection system in the world (which no doubt saved thousands of lives) but even that offers mere seconds. Sometimes that's all you need though. As of before the Touhoku Earthquake, the last stats I heard was 70% chance of a "large" (8.0-ish) Earthquake in Kanto in the next 30 years. That's a very wide open ballpark. Of course, now that Touhoku has released a lot of it's build up, apparently that shifts over to Kanto. But again - it's not predictable. Not yet, anyway, and not any time soon.

There is only two things Japan can do. One thing they've been doing forever: prepare. The early warning system proved itself, and the architecture has strong Earthquakes in mind when it's designed. Two: learn from mistakes, across the board. This, I don't have much faith in. They're upping standards at various reactors around the country but there's one huge issue that Japan has known about for years (decades?) and has done little about, and that's the "all chickens in one basket" problem. When the big one hits Tokyo, it is not going to be pretty for anyone. See the hiccup in world economics b/c of this one out in the middle of nowhere? Think of what happens when large corporations are displaced.

[Nick420]

Kick them In the cock. I lol'd!!

Yeah good points. When i said easy that was probably the wrong term. Granted they would still have to highjack a plane or somehow infiltrate a suicide bomber or whatever. What i meant was, they just know now that for that type reactor all that is needed is to damage the roof in order to have a good chance of causing a radiation leak. And essentially cause fear.

By th way there are 20 something(can't remember the exact number)of this type reactor In usa

[TransatlanticFoe]

The main issue with the whole thing was that the tsunami took out power to the cooling systems. The earthquake itself did nothing to the reactors, they were perfectly fine until they couldn't be cooled down. The primary failure was that the sea defence against a tsunami wave was insufficient with the secondary one being that there was no contingency to supply power in the event that the wall breached and flooded the generators designed to keep coolant pumps going long enough for a safe shutdown in an emergency.

As far as terrorist attacks go, it's a non-issue. You can fly an airliner into a nuclear plant and it won't breach it - so unless you've got heavy duty artillery or missiles with a hefty payload (which isn't exactly inconspicuous) you're not causing a nuclear incident. Likewise, I'd love to see someone try to sneak in and plant an explosive device far enough in a reactor structure to cause major damage on detonation. Terrorist attacks on a nuclear power station is something you need have absolutely no fear about.

[Nick420]

The main issue with the whole thing was that the tsunami took out power to the cooling systems. The earthquake itself did nothing to the reactors, they were perfectly fine until they couldn't be cooled down. The primary failure was that the sea defence against a tsunami wave was insufficient with the secondary one being that there was no contingency to supply power in the event that the wall breached and flooded the generators designed to keep coolant pumps going long enough for a safe shutdown in an emergency.

As far as terrorist attacks go, it's a non-issue. You can fly an airliner into a nuclear plant and it won't breach it - so unless you've got heavy duty artillery or missiles with a hefty payload (which isn't exactly inconspicuous) you're not causing a nuclear incident. Likewise, I'd love to see someone try to sneak in and plant an explosive device far enough in a reactor structure to cause major damage on detonation. Terrorist attacks on a nuclear power station is something you need have absolutely no fear about.

I am entirely aware of everything You said I'n the first paragraph. However the outer containment buildings were cracked. Whether that was from the earthquake or the hydrogen explosions the government and tepco have not been clear enough on this. What you are referring to is the reactors went into shutdown from the earthquake warning system. I.e. There would have been no meltdown were it not for the tsunami. However to say that the reactor buildings had no damage from the earthquake. I think is naive.

And with all due respect, how great of security do you think your average nuclear plant has? If terrorists can take down the twin towers I'm sure they are more than capable of carrying out an attack on a reactor building, should they put they're mind to it. Whether or not they would is another debate altogether. My view on the matter is that should terrorists manage to successfully cause a radiation leak. The fear it would spread through the public would be immense. Therefore making a nuclear plant a prime target. If they did it would strengthen the anti-nuclear cause. So
In a wierd kinda way they mite actually be doing humanity a favour. Haha need 2 stop smoking now

[TransatlanticFoe]

The earthquake was insufficient to damage the structure of the reactors enough to cause a radiation leak. For many many years Japan has been at the forefront of structural design to withstand earthquake damage. What caused the reactors to breach was damage from the pressure explosions, in turn caused by lack of coolant - even so, it wasn't like the whole thing blew up spraying radioactive material everywhere. It wasn't given much coverage (because hey, it didn't scare the shit out of anyone), but a professor of nuclear physics explained in a BBC interview that the radiation levels measured on the affected reactors were not significantly advanced from background levels - we're talking an order of ten which would be enough to breach nuclear regulations but then, so does natural background radiation in Cornwall! After the explosion, the reactor was found to be mostly intact and not releasing significant levels of radiation.

As is standard with nuclear reactors, the structure is design to collapse inwards to make the reactor as safe as possible. There would be damage from the earthquake, of course - but the damage would not have been significant enough to breach the reactor. From just an earthquake, the reactor would have been shut down as normal and structural inspections taken place - with any necessary repairs made before bringing the reactor back online. The tsunami took out both the main grid and the emergency local generators, which stopped the cooling process required for a safe shutdown - had power to either remained, the reactors would have safely shut down.

As far as a terrorist attack goes, you need to get within the structure of the reactor for an explosive to do any severe damage - or at least take out both the main grid connection and the reserve generators (like the tsunami did) to cause a meltdown. Most scientists working in the station would not have access to an area where an explosion could cause significant damage, let alone a terrorist (however good his/her cover). Likewise, to take out reserve power and the main grid requires a military-level operation to go unnoticed - you're better off worrying about being struck by lightning than that ever happening.

If you want to be terrified by nuclear power, then go ahead. The news will back you up. If you listen to the scientists who know what they're talking about (no, this does not always include the government representatives) then you'll know there's nothing to fear. Nuclear power has tremendous potential for destruction and pollution - but it doesn't mean you have to be afraid of it. It's only when you cut corners a la Chernobyl (and ought to be the main reason anyone is against the likes of Iran getting nuclear reactors) that you start risking a major incident.

[Nick420]

I don't know where your getting your info from but most of what your saying is wrong. As regards the terrorists youve just said it yourself. Cut power to coolant pumps that will do the job. It sounds like your getting all your info from the news coverage done on the event before tepco had actually started to admit that the problem was actually much more serious. Whether the quake damaged the building or not is irrelevant. And im not afraid of nuclear power i just don't agree with it.

Seriously man, go and watch all of Arnie gundersons videos and you will see that this accident is alot worse than it was portrayed at the time of all the major media coverage. It started as "not even an accident" at the start to eventually being "oh yeah well actually we knew that 3 reactors where I'n an unstoppable meltdown hours after the tsunami". Apparently the media where payed off aswell. Open your eyes man you're going on like this accident is nothing to be concerned about when actually its likely to at the very least give thousands of children cancers and have all sorts of hugely negative affects on the environment.

It seems gajin punch's words ring true. This needs to be debated elsewhere.

[NTSC-J]

While the radiation frenzy had subsided a bit, I`ve noticed the impact this has had on my school lunches. Normally the kyuushoku is top-notch and leagues ahead of the gruel served to us in troughs in elementary school back home, but ever since the quake we`ve been eating reserves or something. Shit tastes off.

And maybe its the added uranium in my miso, but...bronchial tubes clearing...asthma disappearing! Acne...remains...but asthma disappearing!

[moozooh]

As regards the terrorists youve just said it yourself. Cut power to coolant pumps that will do the job.

Yeah, last I checked cutting off power to the coolant pumps was as easy as pulling the plug from a safe distance. Totally unlike rupturing a high-voltage line several hundred meters away, alarming everybody instantly while doing so, then somehow making them not call the SWATs during the next few hours diesel generators would be powering the pumps in lieu of the main power grid.

There's a good reason NPPs aren't being a target for terrorists, and it boils down to "it's not worth the trouble". You can get a LOT more people killed by bombing a subway train carriage. A lot easier to do as well.

[Nick420]

Yes i know there is backup generators. Ofcourse it would be completely impossible to cut power to the coolant pumps from the diesel generators or to put the generators out of commission(sarcasm). And what are you talking about. Obviously the factory would have to be routed off the main grid at some point, where it could be cut. You may well be right terrorists may feel that attacking a nuclear plant is too much trouble. And yes more people will die from a bomb. However you are missing the point. A terrorists main goal is to spread fear. A radiation leak could result I'n widespread panic and widespread fear. A bomb will blow over much quicker than a radiation leak and will only directly affect a relatively minute portion of people. How many people would have to relocate from a subway bomb i ask you?

I just wanted to express my views on nuclear energy, and to explain that this accident has been downplayed way too much, I'n terms of amounts of radiation leaked fukushima is far worse, as regards to the affect the radiation will have on people and nature, Chernobyl may well turn out to be the more damaging. Mainly due to the wind carrying and dispersing the radiation out to sea and better managing of food resources etc.

I had no intentions to rub anyone up the wrong way or get in to a petty squabble so i am going to bow out of this discussion at this point.

Go play some eschatos or something instead

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I havnt been keeping up with with all of this, only thing ive seen is some guys YT videos who paints a very bleak picture as something akin to opening pandora's box and its only a matter of time until the radiation speads all over the island. (while im not totally dumb enough to believe such alarmist views from some dude on YT even if he says he is ex industry, without looking for facts from other sources, but I would like an opinion from others who know more on the subject.

This is his latest but he is talking about Nuclear in general aswell as Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/GamersGetti ... r_CbIzeoiM

Here is his last Japan vid from a month ago http://www.youtube.com/user/GamersGetti ... 6cmjLp-CO0

[Ex-Cyber]

its only a matter of time until the radiation speads all over the island

It's only a matter of time until it spreads over the whole planet. How far it spreads doesn't really matter, though; what matters is how much people are exposed to.

Also, I wouldn't particularly trust that guy to give accurate information. Some of what he says is true/accurate/reasonable, but he also appears to be quite fond of spewing bullshit in an authoritative tone. I had to force myself to finish watching his copyright video, which is 90% bullshit stated as though it's incontrovertible fact.

[DEL]

Alright, so at the time of the third explosion at Fukushima I asked the question "Where's the footage?" I couldn't find it.
I still can't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK0-scxGEak

Oh and the footage of the Second Explosion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw2Aw3komgc
Both REMOVED (not that there is a cover up )
And then I read of a Fourth Explosion
http://rt.com/news/officials-explosion- ... ma-claims/

So it goes to a Melt-through, not just a meltdown.

Then we have this recently:
Radiation Levels Strong Enough To Kill A Man In Seconds Detected At Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lDUkKOD ... r_embedded
GaijinPunch will recognize Professor Kaku from the History Channel Universe series.

English Nuclear Physicist Chris Busby mentions "no worse-than-imaginable-case scenario"

[GaijinPunch]

Then we have this recently:
Radiation Levels Strong Enough To Kill A Man In Seconds Detected At Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lDUkKOD ... r_embedded
GaijinPunch will recognize Professor Kaku from the History Channel Universe series.

Sure do. But, I was pretty displeased with his alarmist approach in the days after the disaster. I feel like he's getting a lot of spotlight b/c he's Japanese descent. He's not even Japanese.

[sven666]

I feel like he's getting a lot of spotlight b/c he's Japanese descent. He's not even Japanese.

lol, joining Uyoku dantai next are you?

[GaijinPunch]

Only to infiltrate!

[Nick420]

Just posting this article.

http://rt.com/news/fukushima-doomed-reactor-plant/

[DEL]

Yup, I watched RT yesterday and saw Chris Busby's latest interview (lower down on your link) -
http://rt.com/news/fukushima-doomed-reactor-plant/

[CMoon]

I have a crazy relative who keeps talking about the west coast of the US getting inundated with radioactivity. I've already seen enough evidence myself to be convinced that the US has never been under any threat (I mean really, why wasn't all of Russia killed off by Chernobyl?) Are there any sites that show radioactive measurements at different locations?--I would really enjoy flaunting this at said relative.

[GaijinPunch]

I have a crazy relative who keeps talking about the west coast of the US getting inundated with radioactivity. I've already seen enough evidence myself to be convinced that the US has never been under any threat (I mean really, why wasn't all of Russia killed off by Chernobyl?) Are there any sites that show radioactive measurements at different locations?--I would really enjoy flaunting this at said relative.

I saw one once but the values taper off before Tokyo. You should kick the shit out of your inbred cousin who thinks the west coast is in danger.

http://oku.edu.mie-u.ac.jp/~okumura/sta ... emaps.html

[DEL]

Cmoon wrote;

I have a crazy relative who keeps talking about the west coast of the US getting inundated with radioactivity. I've already seen enough evidence myself to be convinced that the US has never been under any threat (I mean really, why wasn't all of Russia killed off by Chernobyl?) Are there any sites that show radioactive measurements at different locations?--I would really enjoy flaunting this at said relative.

Yes, don't worry about the west coast of the US.
BUT, as far as (I mean really, why wasn't all of Russia killed off by Chernobyl?) is concerned:-
Watch this...all of it...and don't shy away
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCCVU4y7oE

[rapoon]

Thanks for the useful info!
You wouldn't happen to know in what prefecture Canon produces their digital cameras like the one I linked?

Thanks in advance!

Shit... no idea. I hope it's not a bad one b/c I'm a devout Canon fan... gotta get a lens cleaned this week, as a matter of fact.

Let me know if you grow a third eyeball. I'm still hanging around the Four Thirds system.