The Shmup Developer Thread

[Alfredo]

Well, we've got a few threads plugging demos, how about a thread or two to discuss the work behind making a shmup, as well as sharing ideas and theories on how to implement various features or come up with bullet patterns, find some ways to aquire graphic resources...Y'know, that kinda stuff. With some of the stuff availble on the net now, even a casual fan like me has been able to do some shmup work, although I've yet to make anything worthy of a public demo...

So anyway, let's get the ball rolling...

I'd like to pose a question...Sprite ripping. Can it make or break a shmup in your opinion? Would you care if a Gradius clone or Gradius themed shooter for example, used a fair amount of sprites/graphics from existing Gradius games?

[Rozyrg]

Using swiped sprites for a "practice" game is OK, I think. Sometimes its hard to grasp what all individual elements constitute a game until you take it apart piece by piece and tinker with it. Part of that comes from the fact we tend to take for granted how sophisticated some these "old, simple" games really are, there are certain subtleties you simply might not notice until you try to build one yourself. I can understand the benefit of having some ready-to-use assets on hand to fill in the gaps as you learn the process.

Beyond that, I can also understand someone 'borrowing' sprites in lieu of being able to make their own or not having access to someone that can either; but even in those cases, I think it should strictly be a temporary solution. This is not just because I believe you should always Make Your Own Stuff(TM); but because of something I call "fan game dissonance." Simply having those recognizable graphics in there adds on some heavy baggage... player expectations. If the character you control looks like Mario; but doesn't control EXACTLY like Mario (even in SMB1 times, he had lots of tricks up his sleeve that imitators miss), the whole facade crumbles, and what could've been a decent, unique little game applauded for it's own merit is suddenly much less than that. It's now just another shitty clone in a mountain of shitty clones.

That said, if you can "borrow", still achieve an overall sense of consistency and actually do honor to what you're paying homage to, that's something different altogether... just don't act too surprised if you wind up with a "Cease and Desist" notice around the time your game is finished. It's sad that someone else can take your hard work away in an instant like that; but if you went in with full knowledge that was within their legal rights and committed to the long haul anyways... *shrug*

[Sumez]

You rip sprites to use as placeholder graphics.
You don't ever publish a serious release using stolen graphics, sorry, but that's simply too low

But I think Rozyrg puts it better than I ever could.

[BPzeBanshee]

I think it depends on how it's used. Rozyrg's not wrong, but if you're going to try to make a Mario game with a sprite of Mario as a playable character you'd think it'd be within your best interests to actually make it act like Mario, unless it's not the main focus. If it fails to do so it's not because it's "oh he ripped graphics, therefore its shit" but "the dev put in Mario but it didn't act like Mario, therefore it's shit".

Obviously you wouldn't rip sprites for commercial purposes, either. Having said that cease and desist letters happen regardless even if you make the sprites yourself and they *happen* to look or are meant to be similar to stuff from other games (see Streets of Rage Remake - new material, new code, still got busted by Sega).

I don't think the graphics alone should determine what you think of a game, bottom line here. How you got the sprites shouldn't matter if its some fangame or simple project of skills. Xeno Fighters uses a mixture of graphics from various games and does it *well* and plays *well* much like where the sprites came from, so obviously ripping = bad theory isn't the be all and end all.

[Sumez]

It would take a lot more for a game with ripped graphics to convince me of its qualities.
Stealing your graphics just screams "lazy developer". At least use programmer art instead, if that's your only other option.

[BPzeBanshee]

It would take a lot more for a game with ripped graphics to convince me of its qualities.
Stealing your graphics just screams "lazy developer" to me personally. At least use programmer art instead, if that's your only other option.

Fixed. Not everyone thinks that way, and you certainly don't speak for everyone, otherwise there'd be a lot more bitching and whining across the board.
- Cave games use stock photos for backgrounds in their newer titles, you don't see everyone screaming "lazy developer" at them
- Udderdude has used Raiden II explosion sounds for his games, you don't see everyone screaming "lazy developer" at him because he ripped like one sound. Or does this not count because stealing sounds means something else entirely? Yeah right.
- Again, Xeno Fighters uses 'stolen' graphics everywhere, I've yet to have seen people besides Udderdude and trolls on YouTube who can't type proper English scream "lazy developer" at him either
- I've yet to hear a complaint about my (redundant anyway) purple sky background in GMOSSE or the warp effect in the title screen

Why? No one cares besides trolls, snobs or lawyers. It's about making and playing the game, not some snobbish elitist view on how you came up with the graphics - leave that to Battlefield 3 and Call of Duty if that's your primary train of thought. However it's done, the catch is making them work. If some graphic sticks out like a wart on your arse then obviously it's gonna make someone care (and I have spoken up about this at times within the very projects I've mentioned), but beyond that its secondary to actually playing the damn game for its programming quality.

[Rozyrg]

Yeah, the higher profile CaD cases (the Chrono Trigger one(s?) always comes to mind for me) are almost a never a case of simple sprite ripping; but they still involve dumping tremendous amounts of time and effort into what is unquestionably someone else's property... and not thinking too much about the consequences. I am aware there have been cases where permission has been sought out, attained and then taken away at the last moment; but as unfair as that is to the poor schmucks who may have spent years working on their pet fan project, fairness is sadly irrelevant when it comes to enforcing copyrights.

Ultimately, I just think it's a waste. Emulate, reference, pay homage to what inspires you, of course; but using the same names, title and characters is asking for trouble.

That said, if you intend to rip sprites and use them for a serious project and nothing can dissuade you, Xeno Fighters is an excellent example to follow. Do it right or don't bother! Like BP said, if you can manage to bring over the gameplay and level of technical detail of the source material along with it's graphics, people are less likely to be worried about some "borrowed" assets. Just know what you're getting into and don't expect legal invulnerability simply because the final product is awesome. I still say just make your own damn game!

And sound effects are a whole other can of worms... how about we just don't go there? <_<

[BPzeBanshee]

Amen to that. "Do it right or don't bother", should be a new slogan or something.

New question, though still somewhere along similar lines...inspiration.

Usage of actual material aside we've seen various games made in various styles come to the Development thread over the years, so as a developer where do you get yours? Personally I like the usage of stones, perhaps that's why I like the Galuda games. But every now and then I'll go through various games when I get creative block and think of something while playing some game whether it be Battle Garegga or Thunderforce IV or (obviously) Gleylancer. My own avatar is the oldest sign of that much with the stones anyway.

[Sumez]

Fixed. Not everyone thinks that way, and you certainly don't speak for everyone, otherwise there'd be a lot more bitching and whining across the board.

Well, if you aren't assuming what I'm writing is my personal opinion, it must be your first time on an internet forum. I don't need to point it out constantly.

http://eternal.dk/karse/opinion1.gif

- Cave games use stock photos for backgrounds in their newer titles, you don't see everyone screaming "lazy developer" at them

There's a huge difference between making use of stock images for background effects and copying someone else's sprites entirely. Inoue's work has always been among the best in the genre, and most people know damn well to respect that.

- Udderdude has used Raiden II explosion sounds for his games, you don't see everyone screaming "lazy developer" at him because he ripped like one sound. Or does this not count because stealing sounds means something else entirely? Yeah right.

I'm not saying stealing sprites is a surefire indication that you're a lazy developer, but it sure hints at it. Props to udderguy for making a great game anyway, but I still think he should make his own explosions anyway. At least he's not using an easily recognizable icon like the DDP ship og Vic Viper as the player ship.

- Again, Xeno Fighters uses 'stolen' graphics everywhere, I've yet to have seen people besides Udderdude and trolls on YouTube who can't type proper English scream "lazy developer" at him either

I've never heard of this game, but if it's all built around stolen graphics, I guess I'll join the choir of people who can't type proper English.

Why? No one cares besides trolls, snobs or lawyers. It's about making and playing the game, not some snobbish elitist view on how you came up with the graphics

Snobby elitist? I'm really surprised by how heavily you take this.

I think there are two points to it, and neither are particularly "elitist".
One is the concept of using assets created by other artists who spent time on them for some specific product. How'd you feel if you made some amazing graphics for your own game and someone just stole them for theirs and got props for that game as if it were their own creation!?

Secondly, graphics matter to many people. Even though the presentation is not as important in shmups as many other genres, they still tend to have an effect even if you don't want to admit it. I'll gladly admit that, gameplay aside, one of the reasons I love ProGear is the amazing visuals. So the graphics are a part of your final product, along with your music, gameplay, scoring system, etc. What if you made an entire stage that was just a direct copy of the enemy formations and bullet patterns in the first stage of Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou?
I mean, hats off to you for being able to pull that off, but it's still just a copy of someone's existing product, and I don't see why you'd want to make that instead of making something of your own. And I think the exact same applies to the graphics and general presentation of the game.

I mean IF you really don't care much about the graphics of your product, why not just use some placeholder programmer art?

[BPzeBanshee]

Snobby elitist? I'm really surprised by how heavily you take this.

I think there are two points to it, and neither are particularly "elitist".
One is the concept of using assets created by other artists who spent time on them for some specific product. How'd you feel if you made some amazing graphics for your own game and someone just stole them for theirs and got props for that game as if it were their own creation!?

Secondly, graphics matter to many people. Even though the presentation is not as important in shmups as many other genres, they still tend to have an effect even if you don't want to admit it. I'll gladly admit that, gameplay aside, one of the reasons I love ProGear is the amazing visuals. So the graphics are a part of your final product, along with your music, gameplay, scoring system, etc. What if you made an entire stage that was just a direct copy of the enemy formations and bullet patterns in the first stage of Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou?
I mean, hats off to you for being able to pull that off, but it's still just a copy of someone's existing product, and I don't see why you'd want to make that instead of making something of your own. And I think the exact same applies to the graphics and general presentation of the game.

Actually, you're right about me having my neck up, fair enough, and so are most of your points. I'll take a chill pill.

My main target of concern though, is that your initial comment sounded an awful lot like the ones I've seen bashing perfectly good games for no real reason and then having the devs personally offended afterwards (like being persistently made a mockery of when really you should just be moving on). It's sad and outright crap for me seeing developers get spooked out of this forum by a few members because of something relatively small (ie. having Vic Viper as a playable ship with credits to Konami in the readme which is never read to begin with, stupid things like that), when all that's needed is some constructive criticism, or a bit of recognition here and there, or a simple sprite swap. And the complaints I'm predominantly against in regards to ripped sprites are *never* constructive - they're always brutal, and a fair bit more brutal than even how I was here.

I think we can both agree on the bottom line though - the best way to go about making shmups is making it your own. And stealing other's material without credit at the very least just isn't going to end well.

As for Xeno Fighters, if you're not a fan of Seibu manics it's probably not your game anyway, but at least watch it on YouTube before joining the trolls commenting there.

[Sumez]

I think it should be easy to tell when ripped graphics are used as a tribute (in which case I'd still say redraw them if you can ), or simply as if they were an original asset to your game.

[retlaf]

New question, though still somewhere along similar lines...inspiration ... so as a developer where do you get yours?

Real life "scenes" which incite feelings. For example, walking down a school path at night, thick flakes of snow falling slowly being lit up by lamp posts, while listening to cool music. Moments like these make me want to create levels which capture the same kinds of moods. It's hard to explain, especially since I have yet to really capture it in my project, but this is how I get my ideas.

[Rozyrg]

I know I said I didn't want to talk about the sound effect issue; but as per the faulty way my brain functions sometimes, I ended up thinking a lot about it and I might as well say something. I won't make a flat justification for the unauthorized re-use of copyrighted sound effects; but I think it's important to acknowledge the difference in that versus doing the same with graphics or music.

-> We take for granted the availability and ease of graphic and music creation software, almost anyone can make either of these themselves from their home; but foley still exists in it's own bizarre world. Do many do it themselves outside of the mad geniuses who carry on the legacy of the radio-era innovators and/or sound professionals who can afford the recording equipment? I honestly have no idea.
--> Unless you're talking about chip generated effects or voice dialogue, the bulk are assumed to be borrowed from a stock sound library or other unnamed source and are likely to have been used many, many times in the past. As such, they have an almost anonymous quality - versus the distinctive quality of recognizable graphics or music.
---> Many shmup sfx staples have a lineage of half a decade or more. The omnipresent "TCHUNN" explosion sound, for example, can be heard in the original black and white Gamera! The sample I used comes from a DBZ episode, though.

This is one reason I avoid using chip-generated fx from popular games (Gradius or any Konami series, R-Type, etc.), despite the fact that they are much, much sexier sounding than anything I could cook up in SFXR, they're distinctive. Not only do they give away their source; but they come off as misplaced as a ripped Sonic sprite would in a poorly made fan game.

Anyways, I don't think it's quite the same as in most cases the fault is not having permission to use X as opposed to simply using someone else's X. The problem is it's hard to know who owns what with many of these 'legacy' effects; but when in doubt, use ones strictly from a source that guarantees the status of their distribution rights.

[S20-TBL]

New question, though still somewhere along similar lines...inspiration ... so as a developer where do you get yours?

I look mostly to the older games for fundamentals. Heck, if I could get as old as Defender or Choplifter I'd do that. You can't beat the classics for solid basics. If you don't have those, chances are your game is turning out a Euroshmup or a Touhou clone.

Aesthetics and special mechanics I also take from games other than shmups, especially boss patterns. You just need to reprocess it in the shmup context.

Backgrounds and sceneries I take inspiration from in real life, as retlaf does.

[Sumez]

New question, though still somewhere along similar lines...inspiration ... so as a developer where do you get yours?

Seriously, as for shmups, I don't... I base my game on clichés. It's stupid as hell, but right now I just want to focus on making good gameplay, which is the whole reason I'm making a shoot'em up and not something that allows a deeper presentation. I know I said presentation is important, and I stand by that, but the depth of a shoot'em up is always found in the core gameplay.

However, my artist is very creative, and the game we are working on right now is primarily his game, which helps his commitment to the product, so I hope he will keep coming up with some good ideas for stage settings and gimmicks. I mainly see my job as trying to keep the game from becoming a euroshmup.

[S20-TBL]

However, my artist is very creative, and the game we are working on right now is primarily his game, which helps his commitment to the product, so I hope he will keep coming up with some good ideas for stage settings and gimmicks. I mainly see my job as trying to keep the game from becoming a euroshmup.

I am 100% with you, Jedi Master.

I'm doing the same thing for a friend actually. He's taking Computer Engineering, but he's more familiar with PC games than console/arcade games--so I'm there to try and reprocess all his concepts into something workable in an arcade context while keeping the PC flavor.

The thing is though, once you think out of the box as regards what could be done with the shmup genre instead of looking inwardly, you begin to appreciate how flexible shmups really are due to the purity of their gameplay. Where that flexibility leads is another question altogether--too often it's led to too many Euroshmups and not enough Lords of Thunder or Aleste.

[Sumez]

Well, the thing is a lot of people have a lot of good ideas (or, good on paper) for things you could do in a shmup game. Usually taken from different genres helping to expand on the perceived "depth" of a genre most people see as repetitive and unoriginal, not to mention extending the lifetime of a game people "beat" by credit feeding to the end in less than 30 minutes.
It's usually those ideas that turn a game into a "euroshmup", but there is also a good reason why they exist.

The truth is, many people who aren't geeky about the genre, but still like it, see Raptor as one of the best shoot'em ups ever. On the other hand, the hardcore geeks aren't 100% "correct" either - I think some people in here go a little to far to defend the purity of a genre that risks going stale unless something new happens.
I think Cave's original scoring systems did a LOT to pour new life into a genre that could otherwise easily have become a shadow of its former glory, so obviously there shouldn't be a specific set of rules to follow in order to make a game that can be accepted by the shmup community, but there are some pretty obvious no-gos.

In theory it should be possible to take cues from related games with more obvious variation like the Mega Man or Contra titles without turning into a Euroshmup, but you gotta watch where you step, so I use this forum a lot to keep my finger on the pulse, while never completely rejecting ideas that WOULD be appealing to everyone other than the hardcore shmup geeks, unless they are on my "no"-list. Once we are done with this game, I'll take my time to make the game -I- want.

[BPzeBanshee]

Your mention of Raptor reminds me a lot of the case of Tyrian where it has a forum dedicated to it, and a modernised engine that is ported across many different platforms but is considered a poor euroshmup by hardcore shmuppers here. It just seems contradictory, but in the end everybody's a critic - personally I don't actually have much stance on that matter.

The whole purity of the genre thing does at first seem to me much like bloodline purity in ancient medieval families (really should be ditched) but the reasons for it to stand stack up quite a lot due to the unsuccessful attempts at steering a big change. Finding a solution to this clearly isn't easy and I don't expect anyone here let alone myself to come up with some ultimate solution to such, though I certainly don't want anyone to be stopped from trying.

I know I said presentation is important, and I stand by that, but the depth of a shoot'em up is always found in the core gameplay.

I didn't quite get what I wanted to say right before, but you pretty much nailed it in the hammer there and then so I don't see your comment as "turnabout" at all: Presentation, and therefore graphics, help to improve on what is already there. But you've got to have something there first to begin with, of course.

I should also mention that having an idea of what it is that you're going to make in detail is important too - you'd think it'd be obvious but as I learnt from reading what the guy who made that Gamasutra article that got posted here, convention and game design isn't always obvious. A good underrated example of a game that shows how this by its failure is Broken Thunder. It gets a lot of bad rap for having "more focused on the graphics than gameplay" but really I think the core problem lied in some kind of confusion between the project managers and the programmer - the design in bullet patterns and aesthetic choice implied that the programmer thought he was making a bullet hell game with emphasis on bullet patterns across the screen, which goes against typical Thunder Force convention where background obstacles and enemy placement is more important as opposed to bullet types. I've meant to make a thread going into more detail with this but that's another story - having a clear idea as to what the hell you're going to make is the absolute first priority.

I actually do this by drawing, funnily enough. I've been doing sketches and drawings of shmup gameplay for the last 5 years but until I started my own projects it was largely looking at what was already around which isn't bad in itself if you convey it well. Indeed the ships I've developed in GMOSSE (not Swordfish and Invader) I sketched on paper during school with my blue, red and black pen, and since everything I do with code where I'm trying to convey some idea of what can be done with the engine is usually not something I've done before I try and plan out how it will look.